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Promotion and PRF Information

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sqwatch Flight Lead

sqwatch

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Can you receive credit for Flt/CC from the promotion board if you did it while you were deployed and it's annotated in your OPR due to being in an LOE? Subsequently, you add it to your PRF. Or must the board disregard the fact that you were a Flt/CC because it's not listed on your surf? I know a job performed downrange as an officer cannot be listed in your surf.

More importantly, it needs to be in your duty history. The board looks at that

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Yes...and shockingly, got picked up 1 APZ with a 5/10 push line and P on the PRF. Sometimes there is justice in the system.

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Dupe Gray Beard

Dupe

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More importantly, it needs to be in your duty history. The board looks at that

Sure...but comparing duty titles amongst all officers in the Air Force is a difficult to near useless exercise. Being a Flt/CC in an Ops squadron is a very different responsibiilty level than being a Flt/CC in a CE squadron or LRS. The board members know this... which is why senior rater strat, being DG, PME completion, DP vs P, and AAD so important. Those things are comparable for all AFSCs.

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Rusty Pipes Flight Lead

Rusty Pipes

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... which is why senior rater strat, being DG, PME completion, DP vs P, and AAD so important. Those things are comparable for all AFSCs.

Hmmm... is being DG at UPT the same as being DG of Finance, Com, LRS school? Is the #1 CGO strat of the MSG the same as the #1 strat of the OG of a flying Wing? Is the #1 CGO strat of the OG at Charleston where they have 4 flying Sqs the same as McGuire where they have 2 or maybe Andrews where they have 2 Sqs, but only a half dozen CGOs in the whole OG? When the AF sends Lt Snuffy to MIT to get his Aero Masters so he can work in a Research Lab at Hanscom is that the same as Lt Jenkins getting his Aviation Management masters from Embry Riddle Online while turning left for 8 hours a day in Sandcamp? Sorry... these things aren't even close to being comparable for all AFSCs unless all you are comparing is whether the box was checked or not. For some reason that part was left out of "The Big Picture" and Big Blue hasn't figured that out yet! I've talked to way too many O-6 types who think all of those are the same... a #1 strat is a #1 strat... a Masters is a Masters... a DG is a DG!

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Dupe Gray Beard

Dupe

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Hmmm... is being DG at UPT the same as being DG of Finance, Com, LRS school? Is the #1 CGO strat of the MSG the same as the #1 strat of the OG of a flying Wing? Is the #1 CGO strat of the OG at Charleston where they have 4 flying Sqs the same as McGuire where they have 2 or maybe Andrews where they have 2 Sqs, but only a half dozen CGOs in the whole OG? When the AF sends Lt Snuffy to MIT to get his Aero Masters so he can work in a Research Lab at Hanscom is that the same as Lt Jenkins getting his Aviation Management masters from Embry Riddle Online while turning left for 8 hours a day in Sandcamp? Sorry... these things aren't even close to being comparable for all AFSCs unless all you are comparing is whether the box was checked or not. For some reason that part was left out of "The Big Picture" and Big Blue hasn't figured that out yet! I've talked to way too many O-6 types who think all of those are the same... a #1 strat is a #1 strat... a Masters is a Masters... a DG is a DG!

Rusty... I'm not arguing that the system is dumb here... I'm explaining the threat picture to others who may not understand it. The sad reality is that 4 of 5 dudes seeing a guy's record at the promotion table only have scant or passing knowledge of Air Force aviation... much less the guy's specific community or his performance within it. The 5th guy is probably rated, but he may not be familiar with the promotee's community. As a result, the board falls back on what they can easily quantify: strats, DGs, PME, DP vs P, and AAD.

I personally think promotions should be AFSC or community-specific, and AF/A1 should just set the number of officers required in each year group and AFSC. That way, we're not stuck with trying to keep officers who are walking out the door in some careers, while simultaneously trying to boot officers in other careers. Career-specific boards could then decide what criteria they want to promote... engineers and scientists can look harder at AADs, the MAF can look at AC to IP progression, the CAF can promote WIC grads, MX officers can promote based on number of denied 2407s, etc. ...but nobody asked me.

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TheInner SNAP

TheInner

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You can't possibly believe that?!

I think GC has a valid point when looking at the individual, if their records have DGs and #1 strats and annual awards then there is no reason I shouldn't think that individual is a strong performer. However, to be able to rack and stack throughout that person's year group I would certainly have to dig a little deeper. Even when comparing apples to apples there will be some variability. As a former UPT IP I can tell you that not all DGs are created equal, so the argument that a UPT DG is an auto-winner over some other tech school DG can only hold so much weight. In the grand scheme of things there probably are some people on an O-4 board who lose a school slot or even a promotion because someone applies the logic implied in GC's post but ultimately the playing field starts to level out (to some extent) as people get wing, staff, etc level positions where you get racked and stacked across AFSCs more so than when a young pup.

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Dupe Gray Beard

Dupe

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I hope it would be more than just the CAF promoting WIC grads

Of course. I couldn't fit all the examples in one sentance. The best IP and leader I know in my community isn't a patch. At the same time, I've seen some pretty dumb assignments for WIC grads to get O-4s the tickets they need to compete for further promotions because the system-at-large requires it. Examples are sending fighter WIC grads to USAFA to be an AOC and knock out an AAD. Another is sending a patch to teach at SOS and then go to ACSC in-res as a follow-on. Both were wastes of our Air Force's investment in these individuals. Had we had a community or AFSC-specific promotion system in place, these assignments wouldn't have happened.

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Rusty Pipes Flight Lead

Rusty Pipes

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Umm, earth to Rusty...by definition, they are all the same. Stop whining.

This is the exact reason we don't have Leaders in the AF anymore... and the only way guys like GC can get promoted. Everyone gets a trophy... we're all "Warriors", right Chang?!? My current O-6 Boss (non-rated) has logged more hours in Polifka being told he is a Leader and a Warrior than he has in the AOR... and that is not a joke. He also spent 20 minutes yesterday defending Finance E-3's getting Bronze Stars for their 179 to Al Udeid, soooooo...

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BitteEinBit Flight Lead

BitteEinBit

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Unfortunately, the reality is that promotion boards can't see 'leadership' on paper the way we see it in action. They can only determine 'leadership potential' based on what types of awards they see in OPRs...and we all know that even the worst douches can get those awards. The DG from my PME class wasn't the best 'leader,' but had the best test scores,. Coincidence?? Not at all. We don't select 'leaders' for promotion, but rather potential leaders. Somehow if someone is book smart, they have leadership potential. The current commander of my organization can't speak well in public to save his life. CC calls are painful. He definitely doesn't come across with any type of respectable authority...but behind the scenes he is an outstanding planner, and can ace the hell out of some written tests. He is a smart dude with no personality. It appears to be what the Air Force is looking for right now.

Let me tell you about this new generation of Airman coming up through the ranks...they don't respect rank anymore, so you actually need charismatic leadership to shape this young bunch. It means using actual leadership (i know we've moved away from the traditional definition in recent years) and I mean it across the full spectrum from the Jr NCO all the way to the GO. Connect with your people, find out their strengths and weaknesses and exploit them to benefit the organization. Flashing your rank and demanding compliance isn't going to cut it anymore. Just think about who YOU consider your best commanders...did you follow them because of their rank or the way they connected with you?? Just a rhetorical question there.

I've stopped compliaining about it, I have too few years left and not enough pull to make any significant changes. I will still try to influence young airmen my way while I'm still in. If GC is anything higher than an O-4 (possibly O-5 select) staffer at "the pentagon," I would be surprised. Not a personal attack on the man, but I've never heard senior leaders 'talk' like that until recently. Leaders motivate and offer solutions and rational explanations to issues...they don't just say 'suck it up.' If he is higher than an O-4, then I think I may be correct in my assumptions about the type of people the Air Force is promoting these days. They arent necessarily bad for the organization, just sometimes these types are better left behind the scenes making things happen.

Personality is everything to a charismatic leader....just reference the Yeager and the 'he who shall not be named' threads.

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slackline Gray Beard

slackline

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I think GC has a valid point when looking at the individual, if their records have DGs and #1 strats and annual awards then there is no reason I shouldn't think that individual is a strong performer. However, to be able to rack and stack throughout that person's year group I would certainly have to dig a little deeper. Even when comparing apples to apples there will be some variability. As a former UPT IP I can tell you that not all DGs are created equal, so the argument that a UPT DG is an auto-winner over some other tech school DG can only hold so much weight. In the grand scheme of things there probably are some people on an O-4 board who lose a school slot or even a promotion because someone applies the logic implied in GC's post but ultimately the playing field starts to level out (to some extent) as people get wing, staff, etc level positions where you get racked and stacked across AFSCs more so than when a young pup.

Agreed, but here's the rub, the leaders going to these boards need to know what that crap means. I mean, is it possible to have a generic rundown of all the career fields before stepping in to a board to determine someone's future? Is that overly ambitious? I'm not saying the #1 dude at finance school, or space and missile school, or MX officer, etc aren't fast burners, but there's no way around the fact that the level of work required at UPT is less than any school out there with the exception of SOF maybe. None (I'll admit, only to my knowledge) of the other schools have as high a bar for min-running as UPT. Basically, you can't min-run it, unless things have changed in the last ten years. Tolerances for mistakes are not possible after your first mulligan, and rightly so.

I'm not saying pilots are better than everyone else, but with the occasional exception (heck, look at me) poor performers don't get through UPT. They may ease off afterwards and become total wastes of space, but it's safe to say a DG out of UPT is unlikely to fall into that category. Same arguments can be made for WIC, although in Rescue they seem to either be D-bags, or turn into D-bags upon graduation. Maybe that's changed as some recent names going through give me hope. Used to be you had to force a guy to WIC, but that's a sidebar.

It's staring us in the face, and it's been said again and again. AFSC specific boards, at least through O-4 are a pretty easy solution. Anyway, my $.02. I've been wrong before. Once.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

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Toro Gray Beard

Toro

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Unfortunately, the reality is that promotion boards can't see 'leadership' on paper the way we see it in action. <<snip>> Personality is everything to a charismatic leader....just reference the Yeager and the 'he who shall not be named' threads.

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