Guest ThatGuy Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 (edited) Or just save everyone a ton of time and money and accredit the UPT/UNT syllabus to a Masters Degree credit! OK... complete pipe dream, but UPT was a million times tougher than any diploma mill I've ever heard of so far! I'm sure there are lots of other programs on the same level (Intel, Space, etc). I was talking with a female friend and telling her the diplomas from my bachelors and masters degrees are sitting in my closet. That's because going through intel training and pilot training was more difficult and made me utilize more brain cells than showing up for class or logging onto a website everyday. Edited July 11, 2013 by slick999 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champ Kind Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 I was talking with a female friend Pics 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThatGuy Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 How can a promotion board weed out certain individuals by PME completion dates if your SURF does not indicate when you completed correspondence in comparison to your peers? An officer can control when they complete PME via correspondence but they cannot control when they attend PME in residence. The SURF depicts your in residence completion date only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitteEinBit Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Lots of good ideas out there, but I'm a realist. Even if we started "fixing" some of these things today, it is still going to take a while for it to take hold. Most of us will be retired before we ever see it in action. We pretty much have 18 years worth of this policy running through the ranks right now from the '95 year group to the newest year group. it will take some time to undo this... Initially, I thought it was pretty scary that LTs fresh out of UPT were being told to get their Masters and PME done, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that at least senior leadership is setting the expectation up front...even if I don't agree with it. Young guys lurking and reading these forums, you know the priorities that currently exist. Even if this current leadership tells you they are finally masking AADs and you don't have to worry about it, get it done anyway. That was probably the best advice I got as a young Capt when the CSAF at that time told us we didn't need one...and yes, while it was masked for my Major's board, history has shown that there is that future CSAF out there who still thinks it is important. Don't be caught without a seat when the music stops because you didn't do what you knew was expected of you. Realize that with the Air Force drawing down you may not have a seat when the music stops so you need to keep yourself competitive. You should all still try to be the best you can at your primary job, find time to get your AAD/PME done, make sure your ideas are heard, and most importantly have fun doing your job. Despite what some of the posters on here have indicated, the Air Force does need you and they need you to keep your head up, stay focused on the mission (yes, the mission) and take care of yourself. Don't try to fight the system by not doing what is asked of you because you want to prove a point...your point will likely not be heard. I still think the Air Force is going to see a significant pilot shortage from all MWSs even if the AF doesn't see it coming. The one thing they have going for them is that if we get another 9-11, dudes will be coming out of the woodworks standing in line to sign up to fight again because even with all the BS, we all still love what we do and what this organization stands for. Fly safe! BT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busdriver Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Liquid, I don't think AAD should be a factor at all unless the AF paid said individual to go full time. I say that because presumably that individual got a degree in something useful to the AF, and that time spent away means they're not in their primary career field and not able to get leadership opportunity there. Otherwise the system encourages the easiest BS degree possible. The AF should be sending smart dudes/dudettes to real universities to get quality degrees in things that benefit the AF. I know we send some, but if our goal is creating worldly, broadly educated future leaders, that should be the vehicle not non-sense online degrees. PME: I think getting rid of ASBC was a bad call, SOS should have died instead. Everything taught in SOS was better placed in ASBC or at the commissioning source. The replacement for SOS should be something like the Army has: based on occupational specialty but with the opportunity to cross the streams. In other words I as an aviation dude could attend an Intel focused SDE, except in this new system I would require dudes to attend a course outside of their specialty. It would be an early exposure to other AF specialties, that would setup IDE that is focused on the Joint-Operational level of integration. Ideally there would be no correspondence at all for this level. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ram02 Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 I don't think 13S, 13N, 17D, 61S, 62E, 63A and a few others should even make major without an AAD. I get the other AFSCs, but what kind of advanced degree does a 13N need? Nuclear physics? Graduate level key turning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravedigger Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 I get the other AFSCs, but what kind of advanced degree does a 13N need? Nuclear physics? Graduate level key turning? Ha! I actually threw that one in there because with 24-hour alerts in the capsule and very little to do, how could you not have the time to knock out an AAD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17D_guy Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 I get the other AFSCs, but what kind of advanced degree does a 13N need? Nuclear physics? Graduate level key turning? Checklist creation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slackline Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Tac LL at night is not that hard. Not a fighter guy so I can't speak for BFM, but we're talking about dudes in their 40s....I'm not suggesting (as indicated in my post) that guys stay in until age 65. Yes, Guard/Reserve bubbas over 40 are doing BFM and Tac LL at night...and they also fly for the airlines. I guess I'm not following your counter point... I would imagine Tac LL at night and BFM would be difficult for the young Capt who doesn't focus on it as much or doesn't get the opportunity to fly it as much...but I'd just be guessing. I don't think you've ever done it at 50-100'... Different story unless you're just full of it. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slackline Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 You should all still try to be the best you can at your primary job, find time to get your AAD/PME done, make sure your ideas are heard, and most importantly have fun doing your job. Despite what some of the posters on here have indicated, the Air Force does need you and they need you to keep your head up, stay focused on the mission (yes, the mission) and take care of yourself. Don't try to fight the system by not doing what is asked of you because you want to prove a point...your point will likely not be heard. BT Now I just feel like you're screwing with everyone. Maybe my sarcasm detector is inop, but are you really saying, "eh, just do it anyway. Why bother fighting it?" I agree that there's a chance you're screwing yourself over if you don't do it, and you can say all you want that the only reason I'm saying, "roll the dice," is because it worked out for me, but I didn't know it would at the time. I just always accepted the fact that it might not work out for promotion, but I wasn't wasting time on other crap that would make me less of a tactical expert than I should be. Your post is an example of why it will never change. Ugh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitteEinBit Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Now I just feel like you're screwing with everyone. Maybe my sarcasm detector is inop, but are you really saying, "eh, just do it anyway. Why bother fighting it?" I agree that there's a chance you're screwing yourself over if you don't do it, and you can say all you want that the only reason I'm saying, "roll the dice," is because it worked out for me, but I didn't know it would at the time. I just always accepted the fact that it might not work out for promotion, but I wasn't wasting time on other crap that would make me less of a tactical expert than I should be. Your post is an example of why it will never change. Ugh... I'm not screwing with anyone...it is the reality right now. There were a lot of bubbas caught with their pants down after the Gen Jumper road show because they thought AADs were a thing of the past. What I'm trying to say is there is always that future CSAF (probably lurking this board now) who will change it back. Believe me, I don't think there is a single person on this forum who thinks AADs are worthless wastes of time and money more than me. I think most of my posts on this forum address worthless AADs. Like I said in my post, even if Gen Welsh were to change it tomorrow, it is going to take a long time to get it out of our system. I said exactly what you just said, get it done because it is today's requirement, but if you choose to be a tactical expert I support that, but I'm not their commander. I won't give dudes "fight the system" advice when I know their fight won't be won or probably even noticed. I'm glad you decided to be more of a tactical expert and not waste your time on something that doesn't benefit the AF. You also understand the potential consequences. The young dudes on this forum can make the same choice. I just want to make sure they understand the consequences. While I will continue to be vocal about the worthlessness of the AAD requirement, I'm not going to give a dude bad advice against current policy. I still put "mission first" as a priority in my post, and I stand by it. Liquid, I don't think AAD should be a factor at all unless the AF paid said individual to go full time. I say that because presumably that individual got a degree in something useful to the AF, and that time spent away means they're not in their primary career field and not able to get leadership opportunity there. Otherwise the system encourages the easiest BS degree possible. The AF should be sending smart dudes/dudettes to real universities to get quality degrees in things that benefit the AF. I know we send some, but if our goal is creating worldly, broadly educated future leaders, that should be the vehicle not non-sense online degrees. PME: I think getting rid of ASBC was a bad call, SOS should have died instead. Everything taught in SOS was better placed in ASBC or at the commissioning source. The replacement for SOS should be something like the Army has: based on occupational specialty but with the opportunity to cross the streams. In other words I as an aviation dude could attend an Intel focused SDE, except in this new system I would require dudes to attend a course outside of their specialty. It would be an early exposure to other AF specialties, that would setup IDE that is focused on the Joint-Operational level of integration. Ideally there would be no correspondence at all for this level. This ^^ Another good idea. I really hope someone is taking notes here to brief the boss... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slackline Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 (edited) I'm not screwing with anyone...it is the reality right now. There were a lot of bubbas caught with their pants down after the Gen Jumper road show because they thought AADs were a thing of the past. What I'm trying to say is there is always that future CSAF (probably lurking this board now) who will change it back. Believe me, I don't think there is a single person on this forum who thinks AADs are worthless wastes of time and money more than me. I think most of my posts on this forum address worthless AADs. Like I said in my post, even if Gen Welsh were to change it tomorrow, it is going to take a long time to get it out of our system. I said exactly what you just said, get it done because it is today's requirement, but if you choose to be a tactical expert I support that, but I'm not their commander. I won't give dudes "fight the system" advice when I know their fight won't be won or probably even noticed. I'm glad you decided to be more of a tactical expert and not waste your time on something that doesn't benefit the AF. You also understand the potential consequences. The young dudes on this forum can make the same choice. I just want to make sure they understand the consequences. While I will continue to be vocal about the worthlessness of the AAD requirement, I'm not going to give a dude bad advice against current policy. I still put "mission first" as a priority in my post, and I stand by it. Yeah, we're on the same page. I'll never tell guys what to do one way or the other, but I will make sure they understand the potential consequences of whatever path they choose. I just wish there were a way to organize them all into a way to just ignore the AAD. The penthouse offices would have to take notice if nobody does it anymore. They can't NOT promote everyone. Anyone willing to take it to the CGOC...? Sorry, I forgot, anyone who's a member probably loves the AAD requirement anyway. ETA: While my above suggestion was tongue-in-cheek, the leadership would definitely notice if they all of a sudden had a more professional, tactical expert force. Edited July 12, 2013 by slackline 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Yeah, we're on the same page. I'll never tell guys what to do one way or the other, but I will make sure they understand the potential consequences of whatever path they choose. I just wish there were a way to organize them all into a way to just ignore the AAD. The penthouse offices would have to take notice if nobody does it anymore. They can't NOT promote everyone. Anyone willing to take it to the CGOC...? Sorry, I forgot, anyone who's a member probably loves the AAD requirement anyway. ETA: While my above suggestion was tongue-in-cheek, the leadership would definitely notice if they all of a sudden had a more professional, tactical expert force. I am less and less optimistic that our leadership notices anything other than manning numbers on a spreadsheet. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van1 Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 For all you young ones who think that not doing a worthless AAD simply means you might not get promoted need to think harder. It pretty much means that you might not make it into the check of the month club. I thought the same thing when I was young about AADs. I figured I'd be rather be a crusty 0-4 line flyer anyway. Problem is after being passed over for the second time to 0-5 I was given a check for $130k and told to GTFO just 4 years shy of making it into the check of the month club. Fight the fight if you feel it worth it but you may not win. In my case, I turned lemons into lemonade and am now an 0-5 in the Guard and have been trucking along on AD orders more or less since I separated AD and future is bright for continued long term orders. Still no AAD. All I wanted to do was retire as an 0-4 but instead I'll have to retire as an 0-5 with an even bigger monthly retirement check. Maybe I did win? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slackline Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 (edited) For all you young ones who think that not doing a worthless AAD simply means you might not get promoted need to think harder. It pretty much means that you might not make it into the check of the month club. I thought the same thing when I was young about AADs. I figured I'd be rather be a crusty 0-4 line flyer anyway. Problem is after being passed over for the second time to 0-5 I was given a check for $130k and told to GTFO just 4 years shy of making it into the check of the month club. Fight the fight if you feel it worth it but you may not win. Don't skip over the part where we say you need to be aware of the consequences. This is a potential consequence, but since senior leadership appears unwilling to do anything substantial to change the way things currently are working, it's on us middle of the road bubbas, and the young cats to do it. I hope Liquid is as sincere with his words as he seems, but so far the rest of the guys up there with him refuse to care, or so it appears. Heck, even Liquid is having trouble grasping the fact that the way it stands now, AADs have simply become an additional duty that adds virtually nothing to an AF officer (exceptions already listed ad nauseam), and takes away tons of tactical expertise. Sometimes reading the back and forth between he and Rusty becomes painful because they, for the most part, simply keep repeating the same things over and over again, worded slightly different. Gotta read it anyway because a few golden nuggets are hidden in there. Edit: ad nauseam, not nausea Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Edited July 12, 2013 by slackline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hindsight2020 Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 (edited) In my case, I turned lemons into lemonade and am now an 0-5 in the Guard and have been trucking along on AD orders more or less since I separated AD and future is bright for continued long term orders. Still no AAD. All I wanted to do was retire as an 0-4 but instead I'll have to retire as an 0-5 with an even bigger monthly retirement check. Maybe I did win? From a retirement perspective you didn't win.. The opportunity cost to forego retirement income to age 60 (minus the retirement age rollback you may qualify for depending on how much RPA/MPA money you're pulling in the Guard) cannot be recouped by merely attaining a Resevere retirement in the Guard as an O-5. You're also erroneously assuming the Guard will let you hit sanctuary and thus an Active Duty retirement while a Guardsman by doing it like a bum, one manday at a time. You just can't bank on that. From a QOL and job satisfaction perspective, you did win. What you're doing now is exactly what you envisioned doing in Active Duty at the twilight of your career. You're just not getting paid what you would want to while doing it. Oh well, we all live within the scarcity of this life. I wanted to fly fighters, no musical chairs at the time and my college broke ass needed an income. Rule #2 of life and all that jazz. There's worse places to be I suppose. Once again, AD pilots should be well served by assuming their job has a 10 year shelf life. Anything after that is a lifestyle choice between the singular motivation to earn an AD retirement, or doing what they want to do for a living. To bank on doing both concurrently is naive and improbable, about outright poor planning in my book. That social contract went out the window when they booted the 157 O-4s non-continued. In light of that event, today nobody has the ignorance excuse for being punched in the mouth with an involuntary separation from the check o' the month career track. We have a saying back home: "En guerra avisá, no muere gente...". In a scheduled war, nobody dies. It's not suggesting immunity by foresight, but it is suggesting the perils of not exercising foresight due to optimism bias when the information is provided to you otherwise. No one can claim ignorance on this war. Edited July 14, 2013 by hindsight2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Driver Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Hearing that the O-5 list should be out today. My hopes that the best of you are on it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinner Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 I didn't make it on my two-below. I'm so bummed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifty-six & Two Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Hearing that the O-5 list should be out today. My hopes that the best of you are on it. Haven't seen stats as they aren't posted, but I wonder if they decreased the promotion rate from the 75% that it's been in order to get rid of the 'glut' of officers. If not, then the machine just keeps feeding itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champ Kind Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Haven't seen stats as they aren't posted, but I wonder if they decreased the promotion rate from the 75% that it's been in order to get rid of the 'glut' of officers. If not, then the machine just keeps feeding itself. Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TarHeelPilot Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Haven't seen stats as they aren't posted, but I wonder if they decreased the promotion rate from the 75% that it's been in order to get rid of the 'glut' of officers. If not, then the machine just keeps feeding itself. AF Times says 74.4% for IPZ. That's the only stat I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitteEinBit Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 (edited) No, we're still feeding the "glut"...people will continue to scratch their heads wondering why. It is basic math...the percentage is going to have to decrease as the class sizes increase if you want to decrease the amount of "glut" we keep adding. Of course, as long as everyone "retires" on time, it should really fix itself. Sure it is more complicated than that, but it does not appear we are making any attempts to fix it with the yearly promotion rates as class size increases...which is actually good news to those up for promotion. I haven't heard anything about non-continuation for bubbas this year. Anyone? ...or maybe there really is no "glut" at all... Edit: Fixed the math "logic" Edited July 17, 2013 by BitteEinBit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeHoler Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 "FY 14 Officer Voluntary Force Management Programs" message is out for those who have access to myPers: https://gum-crm.csd.disa.mil/app/answers/detail/a_id/24198 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vetter Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Clif notes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champ Kind Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 11X ineligible for Palace Chase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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