disgruntledemployee Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Liquid, My #1 issue with our system is that it emphasizes the wrong things. I and many others that have AADs can testify that most of the work doesn't truely make us better leaders. Sure there are small areas where it makes us better, like maybe a better writer. Maybe you received your masters in a classroom. Most kids today get theirs from a diploma mill. There are a few that decide they will invest their time and get a masters that means something, say engineering because TPS is something they might like doing. When flyers are doing AADs alongside UPT/UNT/Grad Flying Training because the AF telegraphes its promotion criteria in the stats it puts out post board, I lower my head in shame. If the AF would say instead, if you get DG in Undergrad or Grad flying training, that counts twice as much as SOS in Res, people will put more energy there. All I'm trying to say is that people will put their energy into what the AF thinks is important and what the individual thinks is important. If the AF wants AADs that will benefit, delete the AAD requirement for selection to Maj. Send Majs to ACSC and other PME that have AAD options and send enough for to cover the LTC personnel numbers for each board. Send the technical types to Wright-Patt. Now you have your Maj with an AAD in something that is more applicable to the AF and PME complete. And then you're back to job performance to rack and stack for LTC promotion. Simplistic description, but you get the idea. As for the system selecting squadron commanders, that is for another thread another day. Paraphrase... Spreadsheets that give points are retarded and used by the retarded. I've never seen one but they obviously exist. I really needed to highlight this item. Maybe the retarded will see it. Good chat Out 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 (edited) I've been told, and my impression is that it is true, that the front page is your ticket. If you don't have SOS, AAD, etc checked, you don't have a ticket. The board won't even bother to look at the OPRs and the citations if you don't meet the minimum requirements. It sucks. The boss who described AAD and PME as a ticket acknowledged it sucks. But you either have the choice to play by the rules as they're set down, and hope to change them as you get higher in the system, or you can just go ahead and cash out now. Edited June 11, 2013 by pawnman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeHoler Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 I've been told, and my impression is that it is true, that the front page is your ticket. If you don't have SOS, AAD, etc checked, you don't have a ticket. The board won't even bother to look at the OPRs and the citations if you don't meet the minimum requirements. It sucks. The boss who described AAD and PME as a ticket acknowledged it sucks. But you either have the choice to play by the rules as they're set down, and hope to change them as you get higher in the system, or you can just go ahead and cash out now. Man, how did I ever get promoted to O-4 without even a BAC+? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Man, how did I ever get promoted to O-4 without even a BAC+? Well, when the selection rates are really high, then sometimes you can get through without the AAD. I'm guessing you got one before O-5, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slc Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Man, how did I ever get promoted to O-4 without even a BAC+? Wow, I'm 4 mo. shy of 20 and I don't even know what this BAC+ is !!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slackline Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Man, how did I ever get promoted to O-4 without even a BAC+? How on earth did I get a school slot without it? I will tell you that for the most part, Rescue, takes care of its people. There are always exceptions, but we don't eat our own like we used to. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiefSlapahoe Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 I've been told, and my impression is that it is true, that the front page is your ticket. If you don't have SOS, AAD, etc checked, you don't have a ticket. The board won't even bother to look at the OPRs and the citations if you don't meet the minimum requirements. It sucks. The boss who described AAD and PME as a ticket acknowledged it sucks. But you either have the choice to play by the rules as they're set down, and hope to change them as you get higher in the system, or you can just go ahead and cash out now. This is the exact reason so many people are upset. There's no AFI or marching order from the CSAF or higher that says "to get promoted, you must have an AAD". Nevermind it doesn't matter if it's beneficial to the AF or country, just have it. It's a culture problem where various leaders value this because of one reason "that's the way it's always been done so I guess we have to do them same thing." We have sooo many stupid AFI's that contradict each other (for example 11-301 has AFE requirements that contradict some 11-2MDSV3 requirements) and it only took 10 years to figure it out...but the problem is the culture: no leader wants to have the courage to change it cause they're afraid they'll be crushed. You don't become a leader in the military by being the bottom 50%. Therefore, strat hunting and ass kissing have unfortunately become the norm instead of challenging the system to become better. "I can't give that E-5 a four or his career is over!", "I can't stay open to help this person out with a finance problem because I'll miss the meeting for the Christmas planning committee!", and we all know the various stories. I personally blame supervisors for letting this happen but I also blame AFI's and documents that are so hard to change nobody wants to do it. Case in point: any important document wants a change: bring it up through your chain of command. All it takes is one person to look at it and say "that's stupid" and it's over, even if fifty other people think (and somebody at MAJCOM) thinks a great idea. Nothing changes and people continue to bitch about the culture. All it takes is for the VCSAF to send out an email asking for ideas to save money when we're in between a rock and a hard place to finally get some ideas to leaders that may work without any of the BS in the middle. Wish it was like that in more areas. Stepping away from the soap box and back to coloring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runr6730 Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Another fantastic example of why the system is broken is the ribbon chart. Anyone familiar with these atrocities knows what I'm talking about. At my base, they are required for mid-level Captains and above and include basically a stoplight chart for: AAD, DE (corr), DE (res, DG), Flt/CC, Exec (level), Special programs (High Flight, PHOENIX, etc), MWS IP/EP, Staff, Etc, plus your last 3 OPR push lines. I've literally seen instances where the ribbon chart was the sole thing the CC used to push people for special programs, etc. While I understand that your record is what gets promoted, things like this take the lead out of leadership and only serve those higher-ups who don't know their people. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThatGuy Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Is it feasible for an MWS IP/EP to get passed over because they lack Flt/CC or their SURF and OPRs are weak? And then leadership realizes this and attempts to give the individual all of these good jobs when the rest does not add up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champ Kind Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Depends... Do you have your AAD? (seriously) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abmwaldo Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Man, how did I ever get promoted to O-4 without even a BAC+? It's possible as I'm living proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickhistory Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Liquid, I don't know who you are or your rank. I hope you are in there fighting the good fight and have been taking care of your people while trying to make the USAF a better place. I hope, but I don't know. What I do know is that you aren't winning. You like the 'system' for the most part because you have, apparently, done well in it. Like tends to like. But by the anecdotal evidence presented on page after page here, and empirical evidence on what promotion boards consider - AAD, race, gender, etc, etc, etc, - compared to what we are taught as professionals as to what is important - technical/job proficiency, growing juniors, etc, etc, etc, - the system isn't very good. Contrary to some of those views here, this isn't a recent thing. Big Blue has been this way since 1947. Before that, as part of Big Green, it was just as fcuked up. But don't say it's good and getting better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap-10 Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) At my last squadron, we had a Capt passed over to Major. He was an UPT DG SOS Top Third Grad OIF and OEF Deployments MWS IP in the FTU Capt filling the Major's Wing Flight Safety Officer billet He had a Bac+ (he was NSTFS one class away from being masters complete) No ART 15, no paperwork, no DUI. He was passed over. Decide for yourself what Big Blue thinks is important. Cheers, Cap-10 Edit: I type goodly. Edited June 12, 2013 by Cap-10 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ram02 Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 At my last squadron, we had a Capt passed over to Major. He was an UPT DG SOS Top Third Grad OIF and OEF Deployments MWS IP in the FTU Capt filling the Major's Wing Flight Safety Officer billet He had a Bac+ (he was NSTFS one class away from being masters complete) No ART 15, no paperwork, no DUI. He was passed over. Decide for yourself what Big Blue thinks is important. Cheers, Cap-10 Edit: I type goodly. With a DP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BONE WSO Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) There is a guy in my squadron that was twice passed over and separating in a few weeks. Great dude, multiple deployments, instructor in the B-1, teaching at the FTU, 1 year remote to Korea, with SOS in residence and correspondence, and a MASTERS degree at the time of his board. No negative paperwork. If this guy wasn't a good dude/hard worker I might understand, but he is one of the best guys in the squadron. He had a P. Edited June 12, 2013 by BONE WSO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravedigger Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Yeah, that's the real question. No way that happened with a DP. If not a DP, then why did the Senior Rater at your base not feel he deserved a DP? A lot of the weird situations people present can be traced back not to the board, but to the flyer leading the wing that made the call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickhistory Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 A lot of the weird situations people present can be traced back not to the board, but to the flyer leading the wing that made the call. Cool story, bro: a long time ago on an island far away: 21 I/APZ for major - 11 F-15 drivers, 2 KC-135 pilots, 1 E-3 pilot, 1 E-3 nav, 3 E-3 ABMs, 1 ground ABM, 1 CE, 1 Contracting, 1 other non-rated/don't remember. 11 DPs were given to 11 F-15 drivers including one with a DUI picked up in that assignment The E-3 pilot was a Flt/CC, one of the E-3 ABMs was Chief of Current Ops in OSS, another in the squadron. The ground ABM was DO of a GSU flight (really a small squadron). Unknown responsibilities of the KC- guys or the non-rated guys. E-3 folks were O for 5, as was the ground ABM'er. Unknown about the KC-135 guys or the non-rated. After a long, painful, never ever believe in the Air Force IG system because they aren't impartial, turns out ALL the PRFs were given to the 3 Eagle SQ/CCs prior to the WG/CC and some were 'dumbed' down. It wasn't just one guy who got screwed but an entire base/year group. Final tally was two of those now O-6-select Eagle guys 'retired' in the middle of AWC, the former WG/CC was found responsible for 3 of 5 findings by the IG and directed to write a letter of apology to the complaintent. As he was a two-star by then, it was a bit awkward to run into him in the Pentagon. But he really suffered by getting his third star. And Big Blue's solution to the 10 folks who were screwed by the actions of others doing something despicble? "You can apply to the Board of Corrections..." Not relook at the entire group, but each could fend for him/herself. As some years had now passed, most separated and built their lives without the uniform. And this is just one more story. This thread, each of our experiences if filled with similar. Yeah, it's a good system... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThatGuy Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) At my last squadron, we had a Capt passed over to Major. He was an UPT DG SOS Top Third Grad OIF and OEF Deployments MWS IP in the FTU Capt filling the Major's Wing Flight Safety Officer billet He had a Bac+ (he was NSTFS one class away from being masters complete) No ART 15, no paperwork, no DUI. He was passed over. Decide for yourself what Big Blue thinks is important. Cheers, Cap-10 Edit: I type goodly. No masters and no Flt/CC may have made him an easy kill? Does the board care about your training report from SOS if you weren't a DG? Edited June 12, 2013 by slick999 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vetter Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) I'm done bitching. Bottom line, the promotion system sucks because it lacks integrity. Edited June 12, 2013 by Vetter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravedigger Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Cool story, bro: a long time ago on an island far away: <story about flyer Wg/CC screwing people> So you are confirming what I said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 No masters and no Flt/CC may have made him an easy kill? Does the board care about your training report from SOS if you weren't a DG? Didn't see any strats in there either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThatGuy Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Correct me if I'm wrong anyone. Essentially, everyone starts off in the middle or "average" points wise. All the extra stuff you have will garner you extra points like strats, DG, Awards (Quarterly/Annual/Safety), ORI awards, etc. If you don't have your AAD you fall below that "average" line automatically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulsa Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) Everyone starts at 7.5 points, subtract a point for lack of an AAD, depending who looked at your record (BAC+ = AAD, YMMV). The convicted criminals at Leavenworth start at 6.0 for the board, yes it is weird that criminals are on the board as well. So, immediately I started off at a 1/2 point above a convicted criminal depending who scored your record. Sounds like a perfect system, what is the problem? This is from my primary board and rater circa 2012. Edited June 13, 2013 by Tulsa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap-10 Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 With a DP? No DP...he was told it was becuase of the lack of Masters Degree...BAC+ wasn't cutting it. No masters and no Flt/CC may have made him an easy kill? Does the board care about your training report from SOS if you weren't a DG? There was a time that SOS didn't have a DG program....in true "everyone gets a medal" spirit, they got rid of DG and instead ranked people in the Top 3rd. Didn't see any strats in there either. He had strats in his OPR's. He was told P becuase of the lack of Masters. He was also told that the Wing Flight Safety Officer, an O-4 billet being filled by an O-3, would look better than Flt/CC, so he shouldn't worry about taking that job prior to his board meeting. Cheers, Cap-10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThatGuy Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 No DP...he was told it was becuase of the lack of Masters Degree...BAC+ wasn't cutting it. There was a time that SOS didn't have a DG program....in true "everyone gets a medal" spirit, they got rid of DG and instead ranked people in the Top 3rd. He had strats in his OPR's. He was told P becuase of the lack of Masters. He was also told that the Wing Flight Safety Officer, an O-4 billet being filled by an O-3, would look better than Flt/CC, so he shouldn't worry about taking that job prior to his board meeting. Cheers, Cap-10 For the most part, you will get a "P" and possibly passed over if you are not masters complete depending on the viewpoint of your WG/CC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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