Fighter TOLD/W&B

[uhhello]

Can someone give a quick down dirty of how TOLD/W&B is done in fighter world.  Trying to bounce some ideas around in another community.  

[Danger41]

Much less involved than other communities. Usually go to the ops desk and write down your speeds and bug those IAW v3 guidance. There are calculators and such but in terms of mission planning, it’s not a big part of it.

W&B is even less of a thought. You’ll only fly in approved stores load outs that are good so that’s not much of a thought either.

My data is old but I very much doubt that’s changed in the last few years.

Edited March 26 by Danger41

[uhhello]

20 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

Much less involved than other communities. Usually go to the ops desk and write down your speeds and bug those IAW v3 guidance. There are calculators and such but in terms of mission planning, it’s not a big part of it.

W&B is even less of a thought. You’ll only fly in approved stores load outs that are good so that’s not much of a thought either.

My data is old but I very much doubt that’s changed in the last few years.

Thanks. What i needed. 

[herkbier]

Didn’t we lose or damage an F-22 because of TOLD? Story I remember is they were using numbers for sea level when it was actually in a high PA environment. Something like that. 

[uhhello]

42 minutes ago, herkbier said:

Didn’t we lose or damage an F-22 because of TOLD? Story I remember is they were using numbers for sea level when it was actually in a high PA environment. Something like that. 

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2018/11/19/investigation-pilot-error-incorrect-data-caused-f-22-to-crash-skid-on-takeoff/

 

Quote

An F-22A Raptor crashed and skidded on its belly during a botched takeoff in Nevada in April because its pilot was using the wrong takeoff data and prematurely retracted his landing gear, according to an Air Force investigation.

The accident investigation board report, which was posted online Thursday, concluded that pilot error was to blame for the April 13 crash at Naval Air Station Fallon. The pilot was unharmed in the mishap.

 

[ViperStud]

2 hours ago, uhhello said:

Can someone give a quick down dirty of how TOLD/W&B is done in fighter world.  Trying to bounce some ideas around in another community.  

Step 1 after any mishap - eat your lineup card. 

[HossHarris]

30 minutes ago, ViperStud said:

Step 1 after any mishap - eat your lineup card. 

Throw all paperwork into the fireball!

[mcbush]

Yep, here's the AIB report from that one: https://www.pacaf.af.mil/Portals/6/180413-PACAF-JB Elmendorf-Richardson-Alaska-AIB NARRATIVE REPORT.pdf?ver=2018-11-15-200849-187

I never flew Raptors but somehow wound up on the FEB for the pilot involved. It mostly worked out okay for him because the error in his T/O TOLD came from a community-wide standard practice rather than anything he did wrong specifically. Given the procedures in place at the time, it was bound to happen to someone eventually at a high PA field... he was just the unlucky one. 

[BashiChuni]

about 7 years ago we did a deep dive on the TOLD excel spreadsheet that lived on the ops desk computer...after running down the spider charts turns out data the spreadsheet was spitting out wasn't even in the ballpark of being correct. over 15 years of use and various formula "tweaks" it was giving numbers that were prob 15%-20% off.

also a highly motivated reservist built a great T-38 TOLD app for 19th AF. it was on the issued iPads for a bit until the AF decided they didn't want to pay the license for it. the guy told the AF to pound sand until they paid him and revoked the license for the app. back to gouge excel sheets and spider charts!

*soapbox* if you teach UPT it's very important to take your students to high/hot density altitude out bases. gotta teach them early how it affects their jet performance. i'd rather them see a 8,000' DA for the first time with a IP in their back seat before released into the wild on a 5th gen 100+ million dollar jet. vance -> OKC O&B isn't the right answer.

side note i heard the f-22 tonapah guy had never taken off from a base other than close to sea level. not sure if that's true, but if it is causal factor?

"During the mishap sortie, after rotation and achieving weight off wheels, the MP described using
peripheral vision, and the surroundings getting smaller to determine he was airborne (Tab V-1.3).
The MP quickly retracted the LG upon recognizing those visual cues"

had a SP do this at roswell...there but the grace of God go I we didn't settle back down...he used the same rotate -> gear up timing he was accustomed to use at the UPT base.

Edited March 27 by BashiChuni

[BashiChuni]

"This data suggests that pilots are not referencing their airspeed prior to retracting the gear, but instead
relying on a visual sensation of the aircraft leaving the ground, as well as having an “internal
clock” which tells them when to retract the gear based off of “experience”.
 

shack.

[brabus]

16 hours ago, mcbush said:

because the error in his T/O TOLD came from a community-wide standard practice rather than anything he did wrong specifically

Oh he did wrong - rotated at 120 because that’s the arbitrary technique he picked up somewhere, with zero regard for actual rotate speed (in this case 136 on card, 143 actual conditions). He also raised the gear 1 sec after perceived takeoff. Both of those actions are completely wrong and if he ever had an IP tell him either, that guy deserved to have his IP qual taken away. This was more than a simple error on the lineup card.

@BashiChuni It’s almost like you should confirm sustained, positive climb rate before raising the gear in any aircraft. Basic pilot shit…that i assume is still taught at UPT these days, or at least I hope so.

Edited March 27 by brabus

[Day Man]

57 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

side note i heard the f-22 tonapah guy had never taken off from a base other than close to sea level. not sure if that's true, but if it is causal factor?

if you read the linked AIB, you will see that is not true.

[mcbush]

44 minutes ago, brabus said:

Oh he did wrong - rotated at 120 because that’s the arbitrary technique he picked up somewhere, with zero regard for actual rotate speed (in this case 136 on card, 143 actual conditions). He also raised the gear 1 sec after perceived takeoff. Both of those actions are completely wrong and if he ever had an IP tell him either, that guy deserved to have his IP qual taken away. This was more than a simple error on the lineup card.

You're right, bad phrasing on my part. I don't want to air this guy's dirty laundry too much, but the early rotation itself wasn't discussed nearly as much as the bad TOLD or the early retraction of the gear. Suffice to say the board "acquitted" him (or whatever) of a lack of proficiency related to bad T/O data since he just did what everyone else did, but did find that he exhibited poor judgment in raising the gear before he was safely climbing away.

[BashiChuni]

57 minutes ago, brabus said:

 

@BashiChuni It’s almost like you should confirm sustained, positive climb rate before raising the gear in any aircraft. Basic pilot shit…that i assume is still taught at UPT these days, or at least I hope so.

correct, but when SPs never rotate at high density altitude...

[brabus]

Sure, in a perfect world with tons of resources. But really high DA is more a flight planning emphasis than execution. In the end, while speeds are higher and distances are longer, pulling back on the stick at the correct speed and confirming positive rate of climb prior to moving the gear handle are the same actions regardless of DA. 
 

Edit: And maybe I’m just old now, but young guys, you are not cool for getting the gear up as low as possible. Don’t be an idiot and shine your ass trying to “max perform” your takeoff. 

Edited March 27 by brabus

[BashiChuni]

6 minutes ago, brabus said:

Sure, in a perfect world with tons of resources. But really high DA is more a flight planning emphasis than execution. In the end, while speeds are higher and distances are longer, pulling back on the stick at the correct speed and confirming positive rate of climb prior to moving the gear handle are the same actions regardless of DA. 
 

Edit: And maybe I’m just old now, but young guys, you are not cool for getting the gear up as low as possible. Don’t be an idiot and shine your ass trying to “max perform” your takeoff. 

UPT O&Bs happen everyday, we have the resources

it's about focusing on going somewhere different and exposing SPs to new environments, not just the canned 100nm away stereo airfield.

 

[Danger41]

1 hour ago, brabus said:

Sure, in a perfect world with tons of resources. But really high DA is more a flight planning emphasis than execution. In the end, while speeds are higher and distances are longer, pulling back on the stick at the correct speed and confirming positive rate of climb prior to moving the gear handle are the same actions regardless of DA. 
 

Edit: And maybe I’m just old now, but young guys, you are not cool for getting the gear up as low as possible. Don’t be an idiot and shine your ass trying to “max perform” your takeoff. 

This is the same thing as canceling IFR ASAP and coming back VFR and absolutely gumming up the radios because you have now screwed up everything for the major airports surrounding your base.

We are getting old!

[brabus]

1 hour ago, BashiChuni said:

UPT O&Bs happen everyday, we have the resources

it's about focusing on going somewhere different and exposing SPs to new environments, not just the canned 100nm away stereo airfield.

 

All about it, but I’m sure they’re not resourced for standard O&Bs to CO, UT, NV, etc. The XC is probably the only realistic opportunity. But I’m not a UPT guy, so just speculating.  

[HuggyU2]

To continue the tangent, and since many of you fly the T-38...

T-38A TOLD in ACC is bad, and unsafe. I fought with them to change abort speeds and finally ACC gave up and said "do whatever your Wing wants".  
A further deep dive shows just how wrong the abort assumptions are. 

[brabus]

@HuggyU2 The -1 performance data is bad, or ACC’s “gonkulator” TOLD is bad? Assuming something of the latter nature, is ACC literally ignoring the problem when shown T.O. guidance is different than MAJCOM guidance?

No skin in the game, but I’m really curious now.

Edited March 28 by brabus

[HuggyU2]

Original post deleted. 

There's a lot about T-38 TOLD that ACC seems to not understand. 
 

Edited March 28 by HuggyU2

[SocialD]

I was a punk when they rolled out the coat hanger abortion that was the first release of JMPS.  We didn't have any civilian help so it was left to the punks to get it up and running, fix any bugs and make it work.  I spent lots of time on the phone with Penguin (can't remember his last name...Roberts maybe) out at Hill, who was a former fighter guy and the guru on JMPS.  If I remember correctly, he said JMPS told wasn't certified because the engineers showed that sometimes ut produced an error of 1 knot on the abort speed.  This is how dumb they are with this shit.  I'd love to put everyone in the sim and force them to make an abort decision with exactly 1 knot difference.  Or even better, have everyone try to gonk told manually and have everyone get the correct numbers and an abort speed within a knot lol.  

[GettinReady]

Not a 22 guy, but the Viper’s flaps are tied to the gear handle. Is the 22 like this as well or is it a separate switch? It was never mentioned in the AIB, or maybe it was and i missed it when I skimmed through it. Still trying to rationalize how that «accident» could have happened. 
 

For anyone out there in T-38 land, do not early rotate. 

[brabus]

2 hours ago, SocialD said:

I spent lots of time on the phone with Penguin

He’s still at Hill! I don’t know how these guys stay so long working with the gov.
 

2 hours ago, GettinReady said:

Still trying to rationalize how that «accident» could have happened. 

It’s pretty straight forward - he purposely rotated way early (e.g. ignored the fact that you don’t rotate until rotate speed) and then threw the gear handle 1 sec after weight off wheels. Either because that was his normal habit and it just hadn’t bit him yet or he was shining his ass on a takeoff out of Fallon at grad 1v1 doing a “low transition” as it has been called.

RC: He had been taught poorly by his IPs up to that point or he was a young guy doing dumb shit (we’ve all been there in one way or another). 

[HerkPerfMan]

7 hours ago, SocialD said:

I was a punk when they rolled out the coat hanger abortion that was the first release of JMPS.  We didn't have any civilian help so it was left to the punks to get it up and running, fix any bugs and make it work.  I spent lots of time on the phone with Penguin (can't remember his last name...Roberts maybe) out at Hill, who was a former fighter guy and the guru on JMPS.  If I remember correctly, he said JMPS told wasn't certified because the engineers showed that sometimes ut produced an error of 1 knot on the abort speed.  This is how dumb they are with this shit.  I'd love to put everyone in the sim and force them to make an abort decision with exactly 1 knot difference.  Or even better, have everyone try to gonk told manually and have everyone get the correct numbers and an abort speed within a knot lol.  

The process of making TOLD planning data (or any scheduled performance data) is an exercise in approximating and building safety margins. You gather field performance data, curve-fit it, model it, then compute scheduled performance for the -1-1. Trying to dial in to 1 knot is "polishing a turd" as they say. What matters is standardization - everyone should get the same output with the same inputs.