Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[MCO]

4 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

"The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn't sign that."

"So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders"

- NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg 07 Sep 2023

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm

 

Why would NATO sign that? 

[ClearedHot]

7 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

"The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn't sign that."

"So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders"

- NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg 07 Sep 2023

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm

 

I am shocked we didn't capitulate and sign...I mean Putin never lies...

[StoleIt]

8 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

"The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn't sign that."

"So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders"

- NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg 07 Sep 2023

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm

 

Ah, yes. The classic "Peace for our time" approach.

[BashiChuni]

NATO didn't need any more members...for what purpose? hope hundreds of thousands of ukranian lives were worth it. foolish.

certainly not a "unprovoked" invasion.

Edited May 27, 2024 by BashiChuni

[ClearedHot]

1 hour ago, BashiChuni said:

NATO didn't need any more members...for what purpose? hope hundreds of thousands of ukranian lives were worth it. foolish.

certainly not a "unprovoked" invasion.

Two questions:

1.  If Ukraine was a member of NATO before this conflict started do you think Putin would have invaded?

2.  Do you believe in promises made, promises kept?

[BashiChuni]

1. there is zero need for ukraine to join nato. it's incendiary and serves no purpose. would the US be upset if canada or mexico joined BRICS or the warsaw pact?

to answer your question...possibly, but no way to know. i think he would have invaded before ukraine joined NATO (such as present day conditions).

2. ironic. generally yes, but historically when has the US kept promises? also which promise are you going to reference?

"U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents"

Edited May 27, 2024 by BashiChuni

[Smokin]

Was NATO's refusal to sign that ultimatum in 2021 also the provocation of the Russian invasion of Crimea in 2014?  How about Georgia in 2008?  To say that NATO refusing to sign an absurd ultimatum constitutes a provocation is absurd. 

Putin is an egomaniac tyrant in charge of a large county.  Small countries nearby rulers like that have always been at risk since the dawn of time.  Putin knew NATO wouldn't sign it.  It was obviously sent as a pretext when he had already decided to invade.  He would have invaded regardless of any treaty because he could and he wanted to.  That's all the reason he needs.

[BashiChuni]

nato expanding up to the borders of russia was provocation.

[ClearedHot]

51 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

1. there is zero need for ukraine to join nato. it's incendiary and serves no purpose. would the US be upset if canada or mexico joined BRICS or the warsaw pact?

to answer your question...possibly, but no way to know. i think he would have invaded before ukraine joined NATO (such as present day conditions).

2. ironic. generally yes, but historically when has the US kept promises? also which promise are you going to reference?

"U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents"

I did not ask if there was a need or if there was a purpose, it was a simple question.   Your sort of answer is you think he would have possibly started a war with the west or attacked before they could join.

I didn't ask if the U.S. historically keeps promises, I asked if YOU believe in promises made, promises kept.

You tried to "generally" answer then quoted a speech.  I suggest you review the Trilateral Statement, signed in January 1994, under which Ukraine agreed to transfer the nuclear warheads to Russia for elimination. In return, Ukraine received security assurances from the United States, Russia and Britain.

 

[Lawman]

Wait I thought they had to invade to stop the Nazis…

Which Russian talking point are we committed too this month?


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[raimius]

6 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

certainly not a "unprovoked" invasion.

What act of war did Ukraine commit that caused Russia to respond with a full on invasion?

[Boomer6]

Gents, I'm all for healthy debate, but engaging with a known troll is pointless.

If you'd prefer not to see posts from this simpleton you can go to your Profile > Settings > Ignored Users (scroll towards the bottom) and then enter the name of said simpleton.

Standing by for down votes from simple jack.

Edited May 27, 2024 by Boomer6

[BashiChuni]

26 minutes ago, Boomer6 said:

Gents, I'm all for healthy debate

except you're not. snap.

[BashiChuni]

8 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

I did not ask if there was a need or if there was a purpose, it was a simple question.   Your sort of answer is you think he would have possibly started a war with the west or attacked before they could join.

I didn't ask if the U.S. historically keeps promises, I asked if YOU believe in promises made, promises kept.

You tried to "generally" answer then quoted a speech.  I suggest you review the Trilateral Statement, signed in January 1994, under which Ukraine agreed to transfer the nuclear warheads to Russia for elimination. In return, Ukraine received security assurances from the United States, Russia and Britain.

 

was that promise voted on in the senate and formalized in a treaty? or was it a legally non-binding agreement? is ukraine a part of nato?

Edited May 28, 2024 by BashiChuni

[ClearedHot]

11 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

was that promise voted on in the senate and formalized in a treaty? or was it a legally non-binding agreement? is ukraine a part of nato?

So a promise has to be formalized in a treaty or it is ok to runaway in the middle of the night like Uncle Joe did?

[HeloDude]

40 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

So a promise has to be formalized in a treaty or it is ok to runaway in the middle of the night like Uncle Joe did?

Politics is politics.  All politicians break promises, for better or worse.  I care about what benefits American citizens always before I care about what benefits those who are not, regardless if it takes a broken promise to do so.

[BashiChuni]

3 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

So a promise has to be formalized in a treaty or it is ok to runaway in the middle of the night like Uncle Joe did?

you are picking which promises you want to be honored. we promised the Russians no more NATO expansion east. You never addressed that.

[ClearedHot]

46 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

you are picking which promises you want to be honored. we promised the Russians no more NATO expansion east. You never addressed that.

1.  Because it is not true, you are actually spreading Russian disinformation.   There were meetings and discussions but there was never anything singed and NATO leadership denies there was an agreement.  Gorbachev FALSELY claimed there was an agreement and ultimately that lie was used by Putin (and now you), as a justification for war.

2.  You cherry picking ideas AND timelines...was there a threat of Ukraine joining NATO in 2014 when Putin invaded Ukraine the first time?

3.  As of today May 28,2024, Ukraine is NOT in NATO.  In fact, the only discussions about adding them have come AFTER Russia invaded twice.

 

 

[BashiChuni]

it is true and has been confirmed by both sides. stop spreading misinformation.

[Lawman]

1.  Because it is not true, you are actually spreading Russian disinformation.   There were meetings and discussions but there was never anything singed and NATO leadership denies there was an agreement.  Gorbachev FALSELY claimed there was an agreement and ultimately that lie was used by Putin (and now you), as a justification for war.
2.  You cherry picking ideas AND timelines...was there a threat of Ukraine joining NATO in 2014 when Putin invaded Ukraine the first time?
3.  As of today May 28,2024, Ukraine is NOT in NATO.  In fact, the only discussions about adding them have come AFTER Russia invaded twice.
 
 

Not only that, but in order to join NATO following the illegal annexation of its territory in 2014, Ukraine would have had to officially recognize the Donbas and Crimea as Russian due to the requirements in NATO for applying.

Since Ukraine has refused to do that (along with most of the western aligned world) it would be impossible for them to join NATO. Putin’s narrative of NATO expansion as some existential crises to Russia is built on bullshit.


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[raimius]

On 5/27/2024 at 3:33 PM, raimius said:

What act of war did Ukraine commit that caused Russia to respond with a full on invasion?

I'll ask again, Bashi...

[uhhello]

Russia/Ukraine war pushing the boundaries on modern warfare yet again.  Tanks are apparently being targeted.  

 

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/29/europe/ukraine-war-us-tanks-intl/index.html

[FourFans]

2 hours ago, uhhello said:

Russia/Ukraine war pushing the boundaries on modern warfare yet again.  Tanks are apparently being targeted.  

 

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/29/europe/ukraine-war-us-tanks-intl/index.html

Considering the unbiased source and their historic proven track record of finding and then publishing all the details of the stories they cover, I'm sure CNN has gotten a complete picture of what's going on there.  I mean, they obviously talked to at least one tank crew, so surely they've got a circumspect view.

//Sarcasm - off//

I was shadowed by two CNN crews for a day, once in Iraq, once in Afghanistan, against my will while flying C-130's with multiple stops in theater.  My crew and I outright refused to talk to them.  Both of those CNN teams published articles that were completely fabricated and included exaggerations of danger encountered and even went so far as to quote my crews and their supposed negative opinions of their experiences in combat.  I had several other crews report similar events with both CNN and Fox reporters.  Never trust a single word of their field reporting that you can't corroborate from a third party source.  Beyond that, I've had several other events with CNN reporters.  They lie outright.  CNN and it's reporters have no integrity and they exist solely to push whatever agenda they choose that day.

I have no doubt that tanks are bullet magnets.  They're kinda supposed to be.  Modern combat is evolving fast, and I have sincere doubts that Ukrainian tank crews are able to keep up.  Enthusiasm can only get you so far.  Tactical proficiency is mandatory.  They're definitely behind  the power curve right now.

Edited May 29, 2024 by FourFans

[SurelySerious]

I have no doubt that tanks are bullet magnets.  They're kinda supposed to be.  Modern combat is evolving fast, and I have sincere doubts that Ukrainian tank crews are able to keep up.  Enthusiasm can only get you so far.  Tactical proficiency is mandatory.  They're definitely behind  the power curve right now.

Plus they’re being targeted with something designed to specifically exploit the weakest part of the armor using a technology that is evolving remarkably quickly. Add in the symbolism of taking out “America’s flagship” oldest model.

[uhhello]

I thought my sarcasm was evident.  Apparently not 🙂