COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[FLEA]

6 hours ago, Pooter said:

I agree with you that this has been mishandled and politicized from the start.

But also... the Democrats' shitty interpretation of the data shouldn't cause individuals to abandon data-based decision making in response.
 

There are good data on the efficacy and safety of these vaccines from all over the world and none of it has anything to do with the lab leak, what the teachers unions are up to, or what fauci says on a daily basis. An educated person should be able to distinguish between those two things and still make a solid data-based health decision. Don't trust the CDC? Perfect, because there's 100+ other countries whose health departments have reams of encouraging data on vaccines too. 
 

But instead, we have close to 50% of the country refusing the vaccine.  I don't think it's because they carefully considered all the data and made a finely calibrated personal health decision. It's because they're wrapped up in the covid narrative battle and they believe the Democrats/CDC/fauci are lying to them and trying to use covid to control them. Which, again is completely true. It just shouldn't be a factor in an individual personal health decision.

I mean again, I think the biggest hinge on refusal is liability. It's great that getting the vaccine when you have almost 0 risk of dieing is making a noble contribution to society, but when you get the vaccine and do have a side effect, who is going to give you anything more than a "thank you for your service," a hollow offering empty of any real value. These are anecdotal cases but when you are the center of the anecdote the statistics don't matter to you, and to society you don't matter. In the end your left with a lifetime of heart issues, hospitalizations or painful menstrual symptoms, medical bills and perhaps a lost career, and all you get is a "well that's a very rare chance of happening". 

Now, in all of these stimulus checks, if the government did something like for instance, set up a 50 billion dollar fund to research long term side effects of the COVID vaccines and compensate victims of the short term side effects, you may find more uptake. But right now noone wants anyone to take that risk except you, and for you, as a low risk person to die of COVID, that becomes an unnecessary risk. And what do we always say about unnecessary risk in the operational world? 

[pawnman]

9 minutes ago, FLEA said:

I mean again, I think the biggest hinge on refusal is liability. It's great that getting the vaccine when you have almost 0 risk of dieing is making a noble contribution to society, but when you get the vaccine and do have a side effect, who is going to give you anything more than a "thank you for your service," a hollow offering empty of any real value. These are anecdotal cases but when you are the center of the anecdote the statistics don't matter to you, and to society you don't matter. In the end your left with a lifetime of heart issues, hospitalizations or painful menstrual symptoms, medical bills and perhaps a lost career, and all you get is a "well that's a very rare chance of happening". 

Now, in all of these stimulus checks, if the government did something like for instance, set up a 50 billion dollar fund to research long term side effects of the COVID vaccines and compensate victims of the short term side effects, you may find more uptake. But right now noone wants anyone to take that risk except you, and for you, as a low risk person to die of COVID, that becomes an unnecessary risk. And what do we always say about unnecessary risk in the operational world? 

How much liability exists for flu, MMR, polio, and smallpox vaccines?

[FLEA]

4 minutes ago, pawnman said:

How much liability exists for flu, MMR, polio, and smallpox vaccines?

Doesn't matter. We aren't talking about MMR, polio or small pox. We are talking about COVID. 

I mean, small pox is far more infectious that COVID and had a 30% mortality rate. I sure as hell more likely to take chances on a new small pox drug than I am COVID because the risk now seems a lot more necessary.

Point being none of your case examples or really relevant to the conversation. We have to evaluate each crises individually with their own nuances. A major nuance of COVID is the vast majority of people in society aren't at risk to lose anything more than a week of work from it. Now you have to convince them that getting a vaccine that likely won't do much for them is necessary for them. 

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by FLEA

[Blue]

6 minutes ago, pawnman said:

How much liability exists for flu, MMR, polio, and smallpox vaccines?

Ahh, good.  The "Whatabout-ism" phase of the discussion.

[brabus]

7 hours ago, Pooter said:

I don't think it's because they carefully considered all the data and made a finely calibrated personal health decision. It's because they're wrapped up in the covid narrative battle and they believe the Democrats/CDC/fauci are lying to them and trying to use covid to control them.

Agreed there are people out there who make decisions based on conspiracy theories, biased social media information, don’t critically think, etc. But, it’s a gross overgeneralization to say no vaccine = you’re obviously incapable of making unemotional, data-driven decisions. My family and I are not getting it for now, and that decision has nothing to do with Fauci, Facebook, Bill Gates, microchips, etc. It is a 100% data-driven, unemotional, logical thought process that led us to this decision…because it’s right for us in our life situation. I’m not saying it is right for everyone, nor do I judge those who get the vaccine; I’m not them/know all the details of their life situation.  It’d be a hell of a lot better if more people took this approach towards their fellow countrymen (is there an X in that word now?) 

[Pooter]

11 minutes ago, brabus said:

Agreed there are people out there who make decisions based on conspiracy theories, biased social media information, don’t critically think, etc. But, it’s a gross overgeneralization to say no vaccine = you’re obviously incapable of making unemotional, data-driven decisions. My family and I are not getting it for now, and that decision has nothing to do with Fauci, Facebook, Bill Gates, microchips, etc. It is a 100% data-driven, unemotional, logical thought process that led us to this decision…because it’s right for us in our life situation. I’m not saying it is right for everyone, nor do I judge those who get the vaccine; I’m not them/know all the details of their life situation.  It’d be a hell of a lot better if more people took this approach towards their fellow countrymen (is there an X in that word now?) 

Of course you have the right to make whatever decision for you and your family that you want. And if you have considered the data and come to that decision I am happy for you, whatever you decided. I will say I would be interested to see what your thinking is since we are coming to different conclusions. 
 

My point was that when I hear people talking about fauci, or teachers unions, or the lab leak theory suppression in reference to a vaccine discussion, it becomes abundantly clear that those people are not basing their decision on data. They are basing it on political narrative.  And considering the highest vaccine acceptance states are all blue and the lowest are all red, it looks extremely closely tied to political ideology, not data.
 

You can't tell me everyone made individual risk assessments based on data and the numbers just happened to shake out this way. Take a look:

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/states-ranked-by-percentage-of-population-vaccinated-march-15.html

[brabus]

My opinion (not stating as fact) is there are more people in certain regions who are more willing to think on things, dig into the information, are skeptical, etc. than others. To talk out of the other side of my mouth for a moment, I am surrounded by people who made a decision based on what a political figure told them to do on TV, without any question or thought…pure 100% faith in the idea that the politician would never steer them wrong and surely has their personal best interest in mind 100% of the time. Other people are not willing to do that, and will ask questions/expect a certain level of credible/backed up answers before accepting something. Not saying either is wrong/wright, but those are both the simplified versions of the COAs I’ve seen a lot of people execute. Skepticism and asking questions is not a bad thing, thought many like to try and paint them as such.

[Day Man]

21 minutes ago, Pooter said:

They are basing it on political narrative.

Of 20/51 worst states (& DC), Trump won 17. The 3 he lost (Nevada, Arizona, & Georgia) had a combined margin of 2.9%. This is odd to me as the vaccines were developed mostly under his administration.

https://www.politico.com/2020-election/results/president/

 

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, FLEA said:

Doesn't matter. We aren't talking about MMR, polio or small pox. We are talking about COVID. 

I mean, small pox is far more infectious that COVID and had a 30% mortality rate. I sure as hell more likely to take chances on a new small pox drug than I am COVID because the risk now seems a lot more necessary.

Point being none of your case examples or really relevant to the conversation. We have to evaluate each crises individually with their own nuances. A major nuance of COVID is the vast majority of people in society aren't at risk to lose anything more than a week of work from it. Now you have to convince them that getting a vaccine that likely won't do much for them is necessary for them. 

 

Ah. So it isn't about liability for vaccines. It's a convenient excuse.

What level of liability insurance would convince you to get the vaccine?

[FLEA]

11 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Ah. So it isn't about liability for vaccines. It's a convenient excuse.

What level of liability insurance would convince you to get the vaccine?

Uh... No.... You just don't understand maths.

Look man, if you owned a 2007 Ford Fiesta would you expect a higher or lower insurance premium than a 2021 Chevrolet Corvette. This isn't that hard to figure out. 

[pawnman]

35 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Uh... No.... You just don't understand maths.

Look man, if you owned a 2007 Ford Fiesta would you expect a higher or lower insurance premium than a 2021 Chevrolet Corvette. This isn't that hard to figure out. 

Ok... so what would you consider a reasonable "premium" for the covid vaccine? 

[Pooter]

1 hour ago, brabus said:

My opinion (not stating as fact) is there are more people in certain regions who are more willing to think on things, dig into the information, are skeptical, etc. than others. To talk out of the other side of my mouth for a moment, I am surrounded by people who made a decision based on what a political figure told them to do on TV, without any question or thought…pure 100% faith in the idea that the politician would never steer them wrong and surely has their personal best interest in mind 100% of the time. Other people are not willing to do that, and will ask questions/expect a certain level of credible/backed up answers before accepting something. Not saying either is wrong/wright, but those are both the simplified versions of the COAs I’ve seen a lot of people execute. Skepticism and asking questions is not a bad thing, thought many like to try and paint them as such.

Completely agree. I'm sure the vast majority  of Democrats made the decision to get the shot with little to no knowledge or consideration of the underlying data. They're just doing the thing that's in vogue for their side as well.  I attribute the vaccination rate differences to two things:

1) people are driven by narratives and they want to join a team so they can hate on the other team

2) the average American has a terrifyingly poor grasp of math and statistics. 
 

Neither of these are a good basis for personal health decision making

[Pooter]

1 hour ago, Day Man said:

Of 20/51 worst states (& DC), Trump won 17. The 3 he lost (Nevada, Arizona, & Georgia) had a combined margin of 2.9%. This is odd to me as the vaccines were developed mostly under his administration.

https://www.politico.com/2020-election/results/president/

 

Yeah but people only understand what's 3 feet in front of their face. Biden is the president now. People are so narrative driven and stupid that I'm sure if trump won in 2020, the situation would be entirely reversed. Vaccination rates on the right would be through the roof and the left would be talking about how the process was rushed and we need to be careful putting all of our trust in these big for-profit pharmaceutical companies. 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Pooter

[FLEA]

17 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Ok... so what would you consider a reasonable "premium" for the covid vaccine? 

It's going to be different for every individual based on their risk. The government would need to cover much higher liability for a 21yo female collegiate athlete than for an 82yo male retiree with liver disease. 

And it's going to be nuanced in every situation. Maybe I can live with a lack of smell for my life but I can't live with increased period symptoms each month. 

[FT11]

1 minute ago, Pooter said:

Yeah but people only understand what's 3 feet in front of their face. Biden is the president now. People are so narrative driven and stupid that I'm sure of trump won in 2020, the situation would be entirely reversed. Vaccination rates on the right would be through the roof and the left would be talking about how the process was rushed and we need to be careful putting all of our trust in these big for-profit pharmaceutical companies. 

Alright I keep seeing statements like this claiming that the left is all vax’d up and good to go while the right is just refusing.

 

A 30 second look at vaccine demographics shows that the young and minorities have much lower vax take rates across the country, and quite frankly it doesn’t take a political scientist to know which political leaning those demographics have. So unless I’m missing something based on demographics alone the argument that support of Biden or liberal policies correlates to getting a vaccine is flawed at best based on data alone.

 

Standing by for remediation 

[pawnman]

5 minutes ago, FLEA said:

It's going to be different for every individual based on their risk. The government would need to cover much higher liability for a 21yo female collegiate athlete than for an 82yo male retiree with liver disease. 

And it's going to be nuanced in every situation. Maybe I can live with a lack of smell for my life but I can't live with increased period symptoms each month. 

So, there's no good answer for you, because you can always claim it's not enough for your risk category. Convenient. 

What's Boeing or Lockheed's liability when you have a catastrophic failure in the aircraft the Air Force pays you to fly? 

[passingtime69]

Alright I keep seeing statements like this claiming that the left is all vax’d up and good to go while the right is just refusing.
 
A 30 second look at vaccine demographics shows that the young and minorities have much lower vax take rates across the country, and quite frankly it doesn’t take a political scientist to know which political leaning those demographics have. So unless I’m missing something based on demographics alone the argument that support of Biden or liberal policies correlates to getting a vaccine is flawed at best based on data alone.
 
Standing by for remediation 

Obviously the lower minority vax take rate is due to systemic racism. Obviously.


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[FLEA]

20 minutes ago, pawnman said:

So, there's no good answer for you, because you can always claim it's not enough for your risk category. Convenient. 

What's Boeing or Lockheed's liability when you have a catastrophic failure in the aircraft the Air Force pays you to fly? 

High. Lockheed has been successfully sued by families of deceased aircrew in the past for negligence including the case of Janet Harduval who successfully exonerated her Husband of pilot error in an F-16 crash when she discovered faulty wiring in the F-16's avionics that Lockheed failed to rectify. But this has nothing to do with any of this. So I don't know why you even mention it. 

Why don't you read this website though? https://www.c19vaxreactions.com/ it's full of people who will likely suffer lifetime side effects from the vaccine and they are largely footing their own medical cost while having to leave jobs and upend life plans. Where is their justice? Who will compensate them now that their life will permanently be altered? 

 

"WE NEED HELP. The constant messaging that the vaccines are safe and with zero acknowledgement of these adverse neurological reactions has made it impossible for us to obtain medical treatment. We are “collateral damage” in the effort to stop the pandemic. "

Edited July 28, 2021 by FLEA

[Pooter]

38 minutes ago, FT11 said:

Alright I keep seeing statements like this claiming that the left is all vax’d up and good to go while the right is just refusing.

 

A 30 second look at vaccine demographics shows that the young and minorities have much lower vax take rates across the country, and quite frankly it doesn’t take a political scientist to know which political leaning those demographics have. So unless I’m missing something based on demographics alone the argument that support of Biden or liberal policies correlates to getting a vaccine is flawed at best based on data alone.

 

Standing by for remediation 

? I think we need to get more granular with our data here.  So young people and minorities lean generally left and have lower vaccine take rates.. so probably Republicans and Democrats are getting vaxxed at the same rates? Which races and age groups are you talking about? This is what I'm talking about with the average person not grasping statistics very well. You just lumped a lot of demographics, ethnicities, and age groups together and made a wild jump.
 

Literally voluntary polling data refutes your point:

https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/the-red-blue-divide-in-covid-19-vaccination-rates-is-growing/

"Democrats are much more likely to report having been vaccinated than Republicans, and Republicans are much more likely to say that they definitely do not want to get vaccinated."

It's not like this is some dirty secret. Lots of republicans are proud not to get the vaccine and have no issue telling people about it.

Also county and state vaccination rates compared with political leaning refute your claim as well. 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Pooter

[lloyd christmas]

[FT11]

25 minutes ago, Pooter said:

Copy, what people report and what they do are very different, thanks for the anecdote. 
 

Go here if you want an individual breakdown by ethnicity and age but since you asked for a specific comparison:

Black voter: 90 percent likely to have voted for Biden, 10 percent likely to have gotten the vaccine.

White voter: 55 percent chance to have voted for Trump, 60 percent chance to have gotten the vaccine

18-24yo: 8 percent chance to have gotten the vaccine, 60 percent chance to have voted for biden

Again, the whole point I’m trying to make here is just that claiming conservatives are vaccine deniers sure does seem odd unless now conservatives suddenly make up most of the under 30 population 

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccination-demographic

[Prozac]

36 minutes ago, FLEA said:

 

Why don't you read this website though? https://www.c19vaxreactions.com/ it's full of people who will likely suffer lifetime side effects from the vaccine and they are largely footing their own medical cost while having to leave jobs and upend life plans. Where is their justice? Who will compensate them now that their life will permanently be altered? 

 

"WE NEED HELP. The constant messaging that the vaccines are safe and with zero acknowledgement of these adverse neurological reactions has made it impossible for us to obtain medical treatment. We are “collateral damage” in the effort to stop the pandemic. "

If it’s on the internet it must be true right? Not suggesting there aren’t real people who have had reactions (even severe ones) to vaccinations. There is literally no barrier to someone creating a website like this though, and it appears that there are indeed at least several more. The implication of this site and those like it is that the vaccines are less safe than advertised and that the “authorities” are hiding data from you. There are numerous actors that are benefiting greatly from the discord that is caused in the US by sites like these. Have you considered that it might be you who is being played by influencers who want to harm your country? Not a pleasant thought, I know, but sometimes we need to accept unpleasant feedback. I’m sure I will be counter-accused of the same thing. Fine, but ask yourself this: Why are you willing to accept data, theories, and opinions from non qualified commenters on the internet but not the known and accepted expertise of YOUR OWN government health agencies? Imperfect as we may be (and have always been), we are still the greatest nation on earth. This “American government is failing and untrustworthy” attitude is pure poison being injected by our enemies to great effect as of late. 

[Swizzle]

1 hour ago, Pooter said:

...  I attribute the vaccination rate differences to two things:

1) people are driven by narratives and they want to join a team so they can hate on the other team

2) the average American has a terrifyingly poor grasp of math and statistics. 
 

Neither of these are a good basis for personal health decision making

How about to enable 21 days of glutanous traveling/leave in Spain? ...and their famous beaches...those good reasons?

Certainly sand, skin, food and wine can't be bad things (in moderation, which they weren't, the more the better!)

[FLEA]

8 hours ago, Prozac said:

If it’s on the internet it must be true right? Not suggesting there aren’t real people who have had reactions (even severe ones) to vaccinations. There is literally no barrier to someone creating a website like this though, and it appears that there are indeed at least several more. The implication of this site and those like it is that the vaccines are less safe than advertised and that the “authorities” are hiding data from you. There are numerous actors that are benefiting greatly from the discord that is caused in the US by sites like these. Have you considered that it might be you who is being played by influencers who want to harm your country? Not a pleasant thought, I know, but sometimes we need to accept unpleasant feedback. I’m sure I will be counter-accused of the same thing. Fine, but ask yourself this: Why are you willing to accept data, theories, and opinions from non qualified commenters on the internet but not the known and accepted expertise of YOUR OWN government health agencies? Imperfect as we may be (and have always been), we are still the greatest nation on earth. This “American government is failing and untrustworthy” attitude is pure poison being injected by our enemies to great effect as of late. 

Well, I can't really respond to you because you came right out the gate with the irrational belief that everyone who claims to have a COVID side effect is a Chinese spy. I can only respond rationally so I can't offer a response. 

[Zman]

10 hours ago, Prozac said:

If it’s on the internet it must be true right? Not suggesting there aren’t real people who have had reactions (even severe ones) to vaccinations. There is literally no barrier to someone creating a website like this though, and it appears that there are indeed at least several more. The implication of this site and those like it is that the vaccines are less safe than advertised and that the “authorities” are hiding data from you. There are numerous actors that are benefiting greatly from the discord that is caused in the US by sites like these. Have you considered that it might be you who is being played by influencers who want to harm your country? Not a pleasant thought, I know, but sometimes we need to accept unpleasant feedback. I’m sure I will be counter-accused of the same thing. Fine, but ask yourself this: Why are you willing to accept data, theories, and opinions from non qualified commenters on the internet but not the known and accepted expertise of YOUR OWN government health agencies? Imperfect as we may be (and have always been), we are still the greatest nation on earth. This “American government is failing and untrustworthy” attitude is pure poison being injected by our enemies to great effect as of late. 

I’ll start by saying the COVID vaccines work, and they are clearly effective.

 

But there is also something else going on.

My sister received the J&J vaccine over 100 days ago. Within minutes, she started having a reaction. The vaccine site brushed it off. She went to the ER (more than once). They brushed it off. Over the next few days, things continued to get much, much worse. My sister, a PhD, a researcher, a published author, and an active member on international speaking circuit, now has great difficulty even walking. She’s spent months trying to get help from the medical community. All diagnostic tests have come back that she hasn’t any underlying medical conditions that would explain this. She’s mostly told “we don’t know what’s wrong with you, go away.” As soon as the medical community hears this all started happening minutes after a COVID vaccine, they don’t want to touch her with a 20 foot pole. She’s even been told “we don’t want to highlight anything that might negatively reflect on the COVID vaccine effort.” Yes, doctors actually tell her that. She’s also been told by the people giving the medical tests that she’s not the only one they have seen with problems like hers post-vaccine.

Her insurance recently told her they aren’t going to cover her tests or physical therapy anymore because they think this is permanent. That was thankfully reversed, at least temporarily, after she reached out to her state insurance commissioner, with lots of data.

The “in the trenches” medical community say it’s not their job to report this stuff, so she will have to do it on her own if she wants to report.

Here’s the problem. She’s tried to contact the CDC to provide updates and request a medical investigation (that’s a thing they can provide for unexplainable post-vaccine reactions). The CDC has been “shady” to say the least. She’s contacted J&J to submit reports. They took her data and gave her a case number. She called back later to update. J&J said they had no record of her ever contacting them and had no case with that number. She submitted again and received a second case number. She later called back, just to see how they would respond. This time… they still had no record of her calling or no record of either case number. She did this five times and all five times, J&J said they had no record of her.

She has initiated a formal investigation against J&J through the FDA.

The FDA requires drug companies to self report incidents and reactions. That’s in large part how the FDA determines drug safety. It’s much like how the FAA trusts aircraft manufacturers to provide accurate data for aircraft test and development programs.

How odd that J&J has conveniently “lost” 5 attempts at submitting adverse reactions. If they don’t have a report in their system, there is nothing for them to report to the FDA. If the FDA doesn’t have the data, how are they going to be able to determine drug safety?

I mean it’s not like a company would ever hide data or critical information to pull a fast one over on the federal regulators. cough*Boeing*cough

I’d have thought that the people on c19vaxreactions were a bunch of anti-vaxxer conspiracy nuts, except I came across that website months after my sister was dealing with the same EXACT things as the women on that site (yes, almost all the people on that site are women and I think that is noteworthy) and having the same EXACT reactions by the medical community when they try and get help. There is evidently a problem significantly greater than being reported. Unfortunately, it also seems to be actively repressed by some circles in order to not hurt COVID vaccination efforts. EDIT: while the individuals on the website highlight some valid neurological side-effects that don’t seem to be understood yet, some of the data shared on the site is a bit more suspect… such as taking VARES at face value, or relaying “I know of someone” stories rather than the first person accounts.

I don’t blame the FDA here, they operate based off the data they receive so they can include proper warnings of side effects. The FDA were the ones that threw on the warning about J&J blood clotting in women a couple months back, or the recent addition of GBS for men. In both cases, J&J was adamant there was no connection, and there was lots of national pushback against the FDA that adding the warnings would hurt vaccination efforts. People were even calling the FDA irresponsible.

I wish our country was in a spot where we can both encourage vaccinations, but also fully acknowledge and support those people who are struggling after having the vaccines. Instead, it’s turned into another front on the culture wars.

It’s also a concerning problem when medically relevant data isn’t actually making it to the federal regulators. That’s my biggest concern here and it makes me lose faith in the process. Not in the federal regulators, but rather the process the federal regulators use to make their decisions. The FAA found out the extent of the problem after two 737 crashes, but the FAA didn’t have to deal with the same cultural turmoil that is swirling around COVID.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Zman