Combat Time

[HeloDude]

Originally posted by viper24:

True they are not the only ones who do, but my question was directed at pointy nose people. Im not hating on non-fighters, I got lots of love for the heavy flyers and crew. All on the same team

From what I hear and know about guys getting 'significant' combat time, you have to talk to the AFSOC type guys if you want to get a big picture of what it's like. I'd be willing to bet that hour for hour, they get shot at plenty more often than most fighter guys do.

But then again, I'm just a Huey driver, what do I know.

[ 25. April 2006, 14:14: Message edited by: HeloDude ]

[Hacker]

Originally posted by JasonG:

I feel very confident in our military forces. Yes, the Chinese outnumber us 100 to 1, but it isn't always a numbers game.

I don't know of anyone who feels confident going against a "100 to 1" ratio of a "Wall of Flankers." Plus, the Chinese aren't exactly idiots when it comes to tactics. Let's just say they're not a Soviet Client State anymore, mmmmkaaay?

You always have to assume your enemy is the top stick in his flight, assume that he is the WIC grad. The first time you assume any less, you're about to get an ass whipping.

[Hacker]

Originally posted by dmeg130:

The "best" pilots in a unit (weapons guys, stan/eval, etc) are the guys that know their sh!t and can handle a rapidly changing situation.

And those are the guys you want with you in combat.

You'd be surprised at how people perform when the real shooting starts. In my experience during Shock-N-Awe, the guys I expected to be the man sometimes weren't, and guys I suspected would be slugs sometimes surprised the hell out of me as real life-taker/heart-breaker killing machines.

I don't know that there's any way possible to predict how someone is going to do in no-sh*t combat. Maybe Moody Suter had it right with the "if you survive your first 10 missions" idea, but I don't think that's an accurate predictor for who will be sharp and who will not.

[Vetter]

I heard FAIPs make the best combat pilots...not saying it's the truth, just what I heard.

[Hacker]

Originally posted by Vetter:

I heard FAIPs make the best combat pilots...not saying it's the truth, just what I heard.

Just ask one, he'll tell you.

[Guest SpectrePilot]

FAIPs are definitely the most entertaining, with their "this one time, in the Tweet..." stories. They always leave me on the edge of my seat with those.

[Guest sleepy]

Not to derail this thread, but I would like to see a thread from IP's* about stupid things studs have done. That might be funny. And informative.

*I mean AF IPs, not FBO CFI's. No offense, friends, but I've had CFI's try to kill me before!

[busdriver]

The best combat pilots are the ones who can think on their feet. As was mentioned earlier, post UPT most people can handle their aircraft competently. High SA and the ability to quickly adjust to a changing situation are very important.

[AOF_ATC]

Originally posted by Hacker:

You always have to assume your enemy is the top stick in his flight, assume that he is the WIC grad. The first time you assume any less, you're about to get an ass whipping.

I agree. You definetly can never underestimate your enemy. However, you should also feel confident in yourself to a certain degree. Now I don't mean an attitude such as "No doubt I'm going to win because of my superior skill," but just enough confidence to perform at your peak followed with the assumption that your opponent is also at the top of his game.

[ClearedHot]

Combat is the great equalizer…

To summarize a lot of what has already been said in a slightly different context mixed with the standard weapons school answer…it depends.

I should preface by saying I always wanted to know how I would act under the pressure of combat, probably some immature desire to prove my courage. When it was all over and the shooting (both from me and at me), finally stopped, I was relieved, exhilarated, scared, and felt very alive. I was relieved that I did not fork up, exhilarated that I had killed bad guys and helped people on the ground that really needed it, scared to realize just how close that missile and AAA really was, and felt so alive because it was the most extreme experience of my life and I wanted more. For me combat was a bit like crack, I was confident but nervous of the threat, but wanted to do it again more than that high school night with Leanne XXXXX.

The standard adages about falling back on your training are true for the most part, but different people act in different ways. I watched good dudes crumble under the pressure and “find” excuses not to do it anymore. I also watched brave young kids that I completely underestimated, step forward as rocks of Gibraltar when the missiles were in the air.

If I had to pick a rank ordered list of ingredients, I would use the following;

1. High SA, that remains high when the threats are in the air.

2. Great Leader

3. Confidence

4. Humility

5. Good Hands

There is no magic profile of a guy or girl that will perform well in combat, there are just too many unknowns about personality and the different way people deal with fear. In the end we try to build the best we can with good training.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Number 1, without question: Courage.

Number 2: SA and good hands, which almost always accompany each other. High SA and good hands allow you to use your courage more effectively.

Some SA only God can give you. The rest comes from taking your training seriously so that you have hip pocket rules of thumb that you can use to make decisions in the air and save your SA for the tougher stuff that is non-standard...like the enemy input to your combat sortie.

If you want to know how a guy will perform in combat all you have to do is watch how he trains in peacetime. Don't listen to the BS grandstanders who think it's cool to talk shit in the bar and breach flight discipline. Listen to the guys that really work on their tactical contracts and then actually brief, fly and debrief to them...especially the contingency contracts. Contingency contracts are where the money is made in combat. Watch the guys who fly every CT sortie like it might be the last training they will get before combat.

I don't believe much in the "you won't know 'til you get there" philosophy. My experience is the guys that have their shit together and push it up in peacetime are almost always the very same guys that kick ass in combat.

There are many subtle ways a guys displays his courage in the air. He accepts tasking and calmly figures out a way to accomplish it without talking about the threat or weather or fuel. Some guys tend to turn on the question/excuse machine as soon as the difficult tasking comes up. Excuses abound.

My favorites are:

"I would've accepted that tasking but the wx was below mins." The only wx mins in combat are the ones that will make you crash (like severe icing) or the mins you impose on yourself, the latter being the most common. Some guys abort, others press and find a way to get 'er done. The ones who press are the same guys who press on a daily basis when everyone else at the peacetime ops desk is saying "I think we should just cancel, the wx doesn't look so good tonight." The full up guys think about how they would deal with wx in combat, brief it and actually train to it, even when the wx is good.

"I would've accepted the tasking but I didn't have enough gas." The good guys know how to make fuel and will do whatever it takes to find a tanker if they need it. These same guys brief and practice their max range/min fuel recovery procedures in peacetime. They know they will have a much higher drag index in combat and they get in the books to figure out what their real power settings, altitudes and fuel flows will be. They practice those procedures and double check their zero knot/1G math in the air when they have a FSWD configuration. They know what section of the checklist to look at and they actually teach it to the guys they fly with. They show up in theater and figure out techniques for quickly coming up with a new bingo when they are retasked instead of waiting until the tasking comes over the radio. They reset their bingo in peacetime and practice their fuel conservation procedures so they will be second nature when the bullets are flying.

"My RWR/ECM Pod/Tgt Pod/Radar was inop." The good guys have a plan for this. They practice it in peacetime and go for it in combat.

"The threat was too high and the CJs had to bingo." All I can say to that is...whatever.

[HuggyU2]

#1: SA and being a clear thinker

[HerkDerka]

Originally posted by Razorback:

Think about some of the guys that you flew with in combat. What stood out in your minds the most: the overall ability to maintain SA (or lose it) or the ability to fly perfect parameters?

Without a doubt SA.

In combat flying, things can go from boring to busier than f*ck in a micro second. The best guys to fly with are the ones on the crew/in the formation who enhance everyone else's SA without gumming up the radios, talking to much, etc. etc.

SA...SA...SA.

Of all the good dudes I've flown with in the box...the best ones all share personal SA and crew/formation SA is a top common trait.

HD

[Guest roy moore]

It would nice to hear from Marine HMLA on this topic. I realize their are plenty here who have fired, jinked, and pulled. There may even be some who did it through the hud/cockpit glass and not the lightning pod. I controlled attacks from the ground and flew in combat. From my ground perspective, jet based ordnance was superior, but the jets did not have to face the threat. I'd like to hear from Marine Cobra/UH-1 jocks on the subject. I guarantee these types can enlighten us all on combat. None braver.

[Guest gonads]

Let me tell you everything I know about combat.

[Guest SpectrePilot]

Not many Marines on this chat-site, but I know a few and they've seen it, done it, lived it, feared it, and killed it more than ANY USAF pilot you will ever know. No matter what Helo they flew-- guaranteed. I have the utmost respect for them.

And BTW: you can ALWAYS count on a Marine Officer. ANY Marine officer. For anything, ever.

No, I'm not gay, I've just been THAT f--kin impressed since working with them here in AETC.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by Safe&Clear:

And BTW: you can ALWAYS count on a Marine Officer. ANY Marine officer. For anything, ever.

I've just been...impressed since working with them

"2"

I don't know much about USMC officer indoctrination or training but they know how to instill the warrior spirit and a sense of integrity and duty that seems to last a lifetime.

I am pointing my boys toward the USMC based on my experience with Marines, young and old, in peacetime and combat. They are impressive.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by gas&trash:

There may even be some who did it through the hud/cockpit glass and not the lightning pod.

Or both...

Top 5 advantages of a targeting pod:

1. Remaining covert until it is time to get to work.

2. Covert self-mark strafe at night.

3. Covert mark for your wingmen's strafe and/or 20 LALD/30 DB airburst pass.

4. Finding and fixing difficult targets like a mortar team or a group of idiots running around.

5. Covert mark and coordinate generation for other flights.

6. Hit assessment. Secondary explosions often come from someplace other than your DMPI. Reattack missed DMPIs and or "survivors" immediately.

Originally posted by gas&trash:

...but the jets did not have to face the threat.

Right.

Desert Storm

Operation Iraqi Freedom

Operation Allied Force

Originally posted by gas&trash:

I'd like to hear from Marine Cobra/UH-1 jocks on the subject. I guarantee these types can enlighten us all on combat. None braver.

That goes for all chopper pilots. No pussies, true.

[war007afa]

Originally posted by Safe&Clear:

Not many Marines on this chat-site, but I know a few and they've seen it, done it, lived it, feared it, and killed it more than ANY USAF pilot you will ever know. No matter what Helo they flew-- guaranteed. I have the utmost respect for them.

And BTW: you can ALWAYS count on a Marine Officer. ANY Marine officer. For anything, ever.

No, I'm not gay, I've just been THAT f--kin impressed since working with them here in AETC.

Send Gearhead my regards...

[Guest roy moore]

Where I was...my experience. You certainly have made your point. Me...One hundred plus combat controls in Western Iraq. Some danger close. On thirty controls of attack helos, multiple aircraft combat damaged. My counterpart witnessed one go down for surface to air. 50 plus jet strikes no reports of aircraft hit..not for enemy lack of trying. 40 plus AC-130 strikes none hit.

By the way, my counterpart, an AH-1 pilot, when he returned to flying and to Iraq, was killed by a high end heater last fall while flying CAS. Pictures not required.

[joe1234]

If anyone doesn't mind me asking....can someone give a real world of having good SA? Everyone keeps talking about it, but it's hard to visualize without a frame of reference.

[Rocker]

I'm just a SNAP (so feel free to discount anything I say), but situational awareness means knowing exactly where you and others are in space and where you're going, what's happening, and perhaps most importantly what's going to happen. It is staying ahead of your airplane. Task saturation usually degrades SA. Point fixation, a stagnating instrument/visual cross check, missed radio calls, and often things a lot worse than that are signs of the (fictitious) "SA LOW" light illuminating. Much more can be added to that take on it, but that's it in a nutsack.

[HerkDerka]

Originally posted by joe1234:

If anyone doesn't mind me asking....can someone give a real world of having good SA?

Short answer is staying ahead of the aircraft.

Your SA increases with experience so don't try to develop SA per se. Just try to figure out things you can do to increase your SA while you are flying.

Some examples:

-Backing up and NDB with SCNS

-Putting the heading bug on the runway

-Knowing the short math for climb/descent gradients.

-Cross tuning the FAF with another navaid

-Using your crew to back you up

But those are just standard flying SA tools. SA really starts to expand when you have experience in certain situations and know what to expect from those situations. Good SA is something like shutting down an engine and knowing how it affects things like stall speeds, airfields you can recover to, cargo, fuel dumping, service ceiling w/ weather.

Your SA builds with experience and never stops.

HD

[C17Driver]

joe1234,

SA can be degraded for the entire crew (on a crew aircraft) if any of the crew members lack the specific knowledge to perform their job! The best way to combat this lack of SA is to become an expert in your crew qual (for heavy guys). For new guys to an aircraft, that means knowing section II and III of the -1. While flying a tactical arrivel is not the time to wonder what the placard speed is for a full flap, or what Master Caution annucications can be announced and ignored on short final. While SA itself cannot be learned (in my opinion), you can help yourself gain it by saving some brain cells through pure knowledge of your aircraft.

[Guest Hydro130]

SA is built wayyyyy before you ever step to the aerospace vehicle.

SA is made/maintained thru rigorous studying. Yes, it is most certainly & definitely *enhanced* thru no-sh!t experience, but disciplined study can yield fantastic SA on its own.

Keep in the books. Keep asking questions. NEVER assume you know enough.

Cheers, Hydro