Herk Driver Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 HD, I firmly believe making an example of a few offenders goes a long way in correcting any "culture" problems that may exist in an organization. And if that method doesn't work, there are plenty of more productive ways to "adjust attitudes" than such silly antics. I simply don't see the benefit of such "mass punishment," especially when there is nothing gained from it other than a bunch of pissed off troops. Increased training and/or awareness I can understand; but dress-up day just doesn't directly address the problem or provide any type of solution. Where do commanders get such ideas that it would?!? If you want them to act like adults, then treat them like adults. And when they screw up, hold them accountable. Such games are just bullshit attempts to appear to be doing something. I don't disagree with you necessarily. I do not believe that you should have to make an example out of anyone. Holding individuals accountable tends to send the right message to others in the unit. However there are times when it doesn't sink in. No one likes the "fashion show" mentality of dressing up in blues. The cynical among us take is as punishing the masses. I am not sure what the point is other than to have folks in blues for a CC call. I am still lamenting the day when we get back to wearing blues during the work week and wear ABUs and/ or flight suits only once a week or when on the schedule to fly. I am sure you can remember back to that time in the AF. Not talking about this "alleged DUI" since he has not faced a judge yet, but let's not forget that DWI and DUI are crimes. We spend way too much time on these types of issues. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homestar Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=122426 Altus wins DoD Installation Excellence Award. Time to lift the DUI punishment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azimuth Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Tony Carr pulled his Altus commentary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M2 Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 I don't disagree with you necessarily. I do not believe that you should have to make an example out of anyone. Holding individuals accountable tends to send the right message to others in the unit. However there are times when it doesn't sink in. No one likes the "fashion show" mentality of dressing up in blues. The cynical among us take is as punishing the masses. I am not sure what the point is other than to have folks in blues for a CC call. I am still lamenting the day when we get back to wearing blues during the work week and wear ABUs and/ or flight suits only once a week or when on the schedule to fly. I am sure you can remember back to that time in the AF. Not talking about this "alleged DUI" since he has not faced a judge yet, but let's not forget that DWI and DUI are crimes. We spend way too much time on these types of issues. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! I always advocate a tiered approach. First punish the guilty, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a public execution but the details of the infraction and punishment should be shared with the troops. If that isn't effective, go for the training and awareness approach. It is in itself a form of punishment but at least there is a point to it. If that doesn't work, then it's time to get personal. Anyone who still doesn't "get it" will get to be the bad example by which others will hopefully learn (it's always better to learn from someone else's mistakes than your own!). If the issue still exists, turn up the heat; but I will never see the benefit from ridiculous actions as "mass blues day" in reaction to such problems. Mandatory uniform wear should never be a "punishment." And trust me, there is no one that wants tougher enforcement on those who are convicted of DUI/DWI than me. It is an epidemic problem in this town, and with a 16-year-old driver in the family the mere thought that some douchebag is out there driving the same roads as my son after having too much to drink keeps me awake at night. This town and state are notoriously bad at looking the other way when it comes to drinking and driving (the Spurs' GM R.C. Buford was arrested and charged with DWI three years ago, but that case was conveniently swept under the table). It is one of the uglier sides of a great city! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homestar Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Tony Carr pulled his Altus commentary. Wonder what prompted that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azimuth Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Wonder what prompted that? Sometimes, a thread posted here takes a path that ends up doing more harm than good to the thinking and dialogue around an issue. We put up a thread last night that ended up meeting this definition, and have now taken it down. It's not an editorial concession, but a recognition that we didn't steer the discussion skillfully enough. When we make mistakes here, we correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skitzo Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Well they just released new guidance that a PFT failure will result in a referral report which will inevitably drive more people to wear blues as punishment. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 What I hate about these things is that people are being crucified when they haven't even been convicted of a crime yet. I'm not saying to keep it under wraps until all legal matters are complete, but once you've painted the picture of a dirtbag, they will remain a dirtbag even when they've been found innocent of the charges. Standard AF, guilty til proven innocent. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Even being accused will ruin your career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champ Kind Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Well they just released new guidance that a PFT failure will result in a referral report How is that new? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guineapigfury Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 A first PFT failure should only cause a referral report if the report closes out before it is corrected. Somewhere is actually closing out reports early because of a single PFT failure? If that's true, we're so far past full retard that I don't know what to say. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Napoleon_Tanerite Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 A first PFT failure should only cause a referral report if the report closes out before it is corrected. Somewhere is actually closing out reports early because of a single PFT failure? If that's true, we're so far past full retard that I don't know what to say. Agreed, though I wouldn't be surprised if that was EXACTLY what was going on. If this is true, it would be another golden example of the new kind of Air Force "Leadership" that seems to be focused on making things as painful for people as humanly possible. Again, no "lesson learned", no chance for improvement, and with a referral OPR, probably no chance for recovery either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azimuth Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 For the record the individual that was the cause of this thread received a DWI, not a DUI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chim richalds Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 For the record the individual that was the cause of this thread received a DWI, not a DUI. Please tell me he at least had a good time at Scooters that night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champ Kind Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 ImageUploadedByBaseops Network Forums1402454975.230656.jpg This language would seem to indicate that a failed PFT = referral no matter what. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! It's at the time the report closes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaver Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 For the record the individual that was the cause of this thread received a DWI, not a DUI. Was accused of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlassEmpty Posted June 11, 2014 Author Share Posted June 11, 2014 Was accused of. Yes... Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and start debating legal definitions on how this jackass drove impaired. He wasn't sober. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaver Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Yes... Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and start debating legal definitions on how this jackass drove impaired. He wasn't sober. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! It's not debating legal definitions. It's a fundamental aspect of our legal system. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addict Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) Cops are good at "hamming" it up when it comes to police reports. Also, due to Oklahoma's implied consent law, you must test, or you are ff'd on the spot. Edited June 11, 2014 by addict 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Agreed, though I wouldn't be surprised if that was EXACTLY what was going on. If this is true, it would be another golden example of the new kind of Air Force "Leadership" that seems to be focused on making things as painful for people as humanly possible. Again, no "lesson learned", no chance for improvement, and with a referral OPR, probably no chance for recovery either. One mistake Air Force = Referral EPR/OPR; which in turn means one's chances of continued service = ZERO. Gotta make those congressional mandated personnel cuts one way or another. Just like the early 90's post Cold War/Desert Storm cuts; same shit, different shovel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azimuth Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Was accused of. Very true. Cops are good at "hamming" it up when it comes to police reports. Also, due to Oklahoma's implied consent law, you must test, or you are ff'd on the spot. He wa going through the gate since he lived on base. No civilian cops involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlassEmpty Posted June 12, 2014 Author Share Posted June 12, 2014 Sounds pretty cut and dry. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azimuth Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Sounds pretty cut and dry. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! It isn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck17 Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 He wa going through the gate since he lived on base. No civilian cops involved. I guess there's more to the story then... Because this seems like a no-brainer as described. Anyone for the assist? Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azimuth Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) I guess there's more to the story then... Because this seems like a no-brainer as described. Anyone for the assist? Chuck It's not a no-brainier, a DWI isn't a DUI, therefore he was cited and released. Should someone accused of a DWI receive the same punishment of a DUI, if found guilty? Edited June 12, 2014 by Azimuth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertigo Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 DWI = BAC under .08 DUI = BAC.08 or above I think in Oklahoma a DWI is defined as 0.05 up to 0.08. If the dude was 170 pounds and had two beers, he could easily hit that 0.05. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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