Apparently having "good hands" no longer matters....

[HuggyU2]

I believe the Dept of the Navy has a little over 1000 Hornets,...

... so irrespective of what they did (or didn't do) a few years ago, do you think they can pay to upgrade that many in the current fiscal environment?

[joe1234]

I believe the Dept of the Navy has a little over 1000 Hornets,...

... so irrespective of what they did (or didn't do) a few years ago, do you think they can pay to upgrade that many in the current fiscal environment?

Well, estimate the past and future amount of money wasted on wx diverts and compare it to the total life cycle cost of adding that capability, and you'd have the final answer.

[Hueypilot]

....and anyone can jam. Which would suck a la Die Hard 2 if you don't have both a brain, and good hands...

I realize it can be jammed, but for many situations it would be nice to have the option.

[Guest USAFFlyBoy]

I know everyone here thinks this chick is a toolbag for saying this, but she's basically correct. Hell, the vol 3 says to fly with the A/P coupled to the "max extent possible." Who needs good hands if George is flying 95% of the time? You can teach a monkey to land with autothrottles and a HUD that tells you exactly where you will touch down on the runway

[Fuzz]

I know everyone here thinks this chick is a toolbag for saying this, but she's basically correct. Hell, the vol 3 says to fly with the A/P coupled to the "max extent possible." Who needs good hands if George is flying 95% of the time? You can teach a monkey to land with autothrottles and a HUD that tells you exactly where you will touch down on the runway

And what happens when George shits a brick and you have to hand fly an approach to min, engine out with a kickin crosswind? because we all know George never does it when it's severe clear. You need the building blocks of stick and rudder skills, reliance on George from the get go and beyond leads to bad things when George doesn't want to be your friend.

ETA: we don't land with auto throttles

Edited May 23, 2013 by Fuzz

[mcbush]

[ThreeHoler]

I know everyone here thinks this chick is a toolbag for saying this, but she's basically correct. Hell, the vol 3 says to fly with the A/P coupled to the "max extent possible." Who needs good hands if George is flying 95% of the time? You can teach a monkey to land with autothrottles and a HUD that tells you exactly where you will touch down on the runway

Has to be trolling.

If serious...you are part of the problem. I see far too many people who can't fly the airplane if the automation isn't working quite right. I also see far too many pilots who can't fly smooth and stable AP off tanker refueling, let alone do good receiver work.

[Guest USAFFlyBoy]

No trolling, just stating the facts. Automation has gotten to the point that even our regs say to use it instead of hand-flying to the max extent possible. A/P off AR isn't that difficult. Basic skills learned in T-37s or T-6s give you the hands for that. Where we really make our money as pilots is managing the mission and we use the automation to make that happen. There's a reason pilots aren't allowed to hand fly some ILS PRM approaches at large class B airfields (hint, it's not because they fly a better ILS than George)

[Rmarsh]

No trolling, just stating the facts. Automation has gotten to the point that even our regs say to use it instead of hand-flying to the max extent possible. A/P off AR isn't that difficult. Basic skills learned in T-37s or T-6s give you the hands for that. Where we really make our money as pilots is managing the mission and we use the automation to make that happen. There's a reason pilots aren't allowed to hand fly some ILS PRM approaches at large class B airfields (hint, it's not because they fly a better ILS than George)

Sounds like trolling, but...

There are some aircraft in the AF that don't have that level of automation. And what happens when George shits the bed? It happens... and then what? Oh well, guess we can't AR tonight, I don't have the hands to make it to contact in marginal VMC on the BLVD, Oh well, I guess I'll just settle for a shitty landing with a collapsed nose gear...In these situations good hands can potentially save the aircraft- bad hands, well, there is potential for the outcome to be worse.

[joe1234]

No trolling, just stating the facts. Automation has gotten to the point that even our regs say to use it instead of hand-flying to the max extent possible. A/P off AR isn't that difficult. Basic skills learned in T-37s or T-6s give you the hands for that.

I'm just curious of which airframe, exactly, you're basing this opinion off of. Because you seem to completely neglect the fact that a huge number of jets in he USAF inventory are old as shit and aren't capable of the level of automation or ease of ap off a/r that you're implying. So really, I'm just trying to tell you that you're ignorant of the world outside your bubble, and giving you the chance to redeem yourself. Have fun.

[bucky60k]

I'm guessing Flyboy didn't do so well in the hand flying portion of T-6s...

[HuggyU2]

I'm just curious of which airframe, exactly, you're basing this opinion off of.

The U-2.

Duh!

[TarHeelPilot]

Autopilot off. Awesome pilot on.

[sky_king]

The hardest part of the "good hands" portion is that if you only get to fly once or twice a month like me, you run into the currency vs. proficiency. Heck it's difficult to even maintain currency at this rate.

[Hueypilot]

I know for a fact that legacy C-130s won't fly a very stable ILS...I can do a better job. The J is a different story, but even so we can't become HUD babies.

When I was a J FTU instructor I had to do a PM assault landing from the right seat for a kid's recommend, and my HUD was inop. When I told him we were still going to do it you would have thought I said we were going on a one-way suicide mission from the look on his face. After a normal touchdown sans HUD, he asked how I did that...airmanship and experience...get some.

There have been many times my automated C-130J wasn't quite as automated when auto throttles failed, the autopilot was misbehaving, or some other system didn't work as advertised and I had to hand fly. Same in the C-21...it was somewhat common to spend the day without an autopilot.

Automation is a tool designed to improve workload and enhance SA, not a substitution for flying skill and airmanship.

[Buddy Spike]

I'm just curious of which airframe, exactly, you're basing this opinion off of. Because you seem to completely neglect the fact that a huge number of jets in he USAF inventory are old as shit and aren't capable of the level of automation or ease of ap off a/r that you're implying. So really, I'm just trying to tell you that you're ignorant of the world outside your bubble, and giving you the chance to redeem yourself. Have fun.

Now this is funny.

[Guest USAFFlyBoy]

Redeem myself? I may be a bit disconnected these days while flying a desk and doing staff work, I still have 3,500+ hours of DV airlift and strategic airlift experience (yes, including the C-17). When I was an OST instructor, it was laughable how much new crew members relied on the jet's automation to "free up brain cells". That being said, there's a trend here. Hell, back when I flew the 141, we actually had to, gasp, TRIM our own aircraft. The C-17? Does it for the pilot. I've seen the mentality shift at the FTU away from pilotage and more towards managing automation and that is my overall point. It appears that automation, while not perfect by any means, is taking over the requirement to "have good hands"

[joe1234]

Yes, and my point is that you can't take one community's issues and assume a standard across the board, hence the bubble comment. The military especially has a wide variety of flying where painting broad strokes is ill advised.

It's not so much having good hands for routine occurences, it's more like not having terrible hands for the challenging ones that inevitably come up for the planes that demand it. Resigning yourself to managing automation is fine once you're actually in C-17 FTU, but that kind of attitude is poisonous coming from instructors at UPT where the final destination is yet to be determined.

[ATIS]

1997: Flying a PAR into Misawa after USS Boat was "not able to take us onboard"... threw the final controller freq in the UHF and keyed the mic. My pilot almost had a fit when what little bit of a "George" we had (yaw damp) decoupled, our dual pitch and yaw channels disconnected, and the rudder just started shifting on its own. Being the young stupid COTAC I was...I keyed the mic again, and we repeated the fishtail/disconnect episode (and subsequent loss of lift). I purchased 'Franz' a beer (or four) for that mistake later at the bar. 'Franz' had some great hands [sTS] getting us out of that mess and back on G/S and A/S. He was also a great stick [sTSx2] behind the boat day or night. Hands and experience, both are required. Terrible hands behind the boat gets you fired/sent home (and in some historical cases killed). Our last line period on USS "conventional shitcan" boat, a legacy F-14"A" (read: old smoky engines) pilot won Top Hook. The entire AirWing was in much respect mode toward that dude, because that is one beast to bring aboard with a piece of string and some Hasbro Lite-Brite things on the front canopy trying to represent a 1970's HUD. Hands and experience.

I fell victim myself to technology while flying test with our new GPS installed in the jet. While not in a "hands" phase (Toff/LDG), halfway across this great country of ours blabbing with the pilot (I was flying just keeping the needle on the nose and watching the mileage click away)...I had to sudden urge to ask where the ###### we were. Since we picked up RNAV direct leaving Pax headed west.... I stopped doing my normal TACAN cross check with the paper charts (anyone still do that, or did I just show my age?). None to worry, we landed safely at Tinker and I ran off with burgers slated for a C-21 behind us with some generals onboard. Auto anything can get you in trouble.

Hands and experience. Hell, even Luke turned off his targeting computer.

Cheers

ATIS

Edit: GD me and my inability to get the font size correct.

Edited May 23, 2013 by ATIS

[SocialD]

1997: Flying a PAR into Misawa after USS Boat was "not able to take us onboard"... threw the final controller freq in the UHF and keyed the mic. My pilot almost had a fit when what little bit of a "George" we had (yaw damp) decoupled, our dual pitch and yaw channels disconnected, and the rudder just started shifting on its own. Being the young stupid COTAC I was...I keyed the mic again, and we repeated the fishtail/disconnect episode (and subsequent loss of lift). I purchased 'Franz' a beer (or four) for that mistake later at the bar. 'Franz' had some great hands [sTS] getting us out of that mess and back on G/S and A/S. He was also a great stick [sTSx2] behind the boat day or night. Hands and experience, both are required. Terrible hands behind the boat gets you fired/sent home (and in some historical cases killed). Our last line period on USS "conventional shitcan" boat, a legacy F-14"A" (read: old smoky engines) pilot won Top Hook. The entire AirWing was in much respect mode toward that dude, because that is one beast to bring aboard with a piece of string and some Hasbro Lite-Brite things on the front canopy trying to represent a 1970's HUD. Hands and experience.

Ummm....what? Something about a PAR and a F-14 driver getting mad props.

Edited May 23, 2013 by SocialD

[ATIS]

Yeah... guess I showed my age and too much Navy for this board. Headed off to a bourbon tasting iin SE DC as punishement.

I'm out.

ATIS

[Standby]

Autopilot off. Awesome pilot on.

Sig'd.

[Hueypilot]

Yeah... guess I showed my age and too much Navy for this board. Headed off to a bourbon tasting iin SE DC as punishement.

I'm out.

ATIS

Some people don't like to read...might be an Air Force thing...

[Hammer]

Some people don't like to read...might be an Air Force thing...

Yeah... guess I showed my age and too much Navy for this board. Headed off to a bourbon tasting iin SE DC as punishement.

I'm out.

ATIS

Did someone say bourbon?

[ATIS]

Whisky/Bourbon PIREP (I'm assuming this is something USAF and USN can agree/share stories about): OBAN 14 and Gentleman's Jack NTS (Not Too Shabby). Johnnie Walker Blue Label and some others...just too much peat for me. End of the night, just settled on straight Jameson 18 (just amazing how smooth it is with little/no bite). Now back to the topic of good "hands". Always have your whisky in one hand, and a small glass of water in the other to cleanse the palette. Have great Memorial Day weekend all...I'm fading to black to watch and read.

Edited May 24, 2013 by ATIS