More SARC briefings soon.

[BigE]

I'm going to use context clues here and say Liquid is not a Wg/CC. He probably was at some point, based upon the comments about signing PRFs previously. I'm going to say GC is a Brig Gen and Liguid is either Maj Gen or Lt Gen. Irrelevant, really, but Wg/CCs don't typically have the same access to high-level decision making as these dudes seem to have.

Here's the secret to being a good officer and human being: treat people with respect, regardless of gender/race/religion/sexual orientation. It really is that simple.

Liquid appears to be legit and the insight is interesting (for a number of reasons) and discussion worth while.

GC appears to be nothing more than a staff officer, no more senior than you and I, and is sharing insight no different than what any O-4 on a staff would have - you're giving GC way too much credit - but it is entertaining to watch him or her continue to interact.

That being said, concur with the calls for some small level anominity -- legit advice and insight is actaully easy to spot without giving name and rank. Its fun to watch some speak out their ass.

[joe1234]

The AF is a thankless organization who doesn't support those who give decades of their lives? You are f*ing kidding me. What could the AF have done to keep you from being so bitter? Not tell you AAD/PME is important? Give you a few more ribbons, pay and praise. How about more tax free pay, cheaper health insurance, more MWR programs, cheaper beer at the Deid or a better retirement plan?

I have one request: tell your fellow peers to stop this bullshit line about how we're all one big family, we have these lofty ideals of family and community, and all this other feel good crap while at the same time treating people like faceless numbers on an excel sheet. You rationalize AF force management policies based on numbers and have to be a cold, calculating asshole -- I get it. But don't sit there and judge me for having the exact same emotional detachment that you exhibit. As if I should be thankful that the government fulfills their end of a transaction. I don't loan out money to others and then say how grateful I am that they bothered to pay me back.

I seriously fucking loathe doublespeak. If you treat me like an employee, I'll act like an employee. You treat me like family, and I'll act like part of the family. But you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, then have the gall to fault me for not falling for your service before self bullshit. I guess what offends me the most is being preached to as if I were a gullible idiot.

[sqwatch]

I'm the lurker extraordinaire, but I had to post.

Who ever these dipshits are / claim to be, Liquid & GC, you are the plague of the Air Force. You are the ones that fail to realize that guys/girls(F your PC bullshit) that have given literally decades of their lives for this thankless organization are frustrated when the organization is failing wholesale. Not frustrated at the failure, but rather at the organizations response to the failure. Our leaders are pawns to the media, current politics, and whoever might complain. Claim mass importance for any miniscule detail you'd like. Just remember when you're drowning "this boat is sinking and you've already chased off everyone with enough sack to put a life ring around your ###### neck"

Edit for these ###. "Pu$$y"

This doesn't help anyone. It portrays you as an emotional 8th grader, and personal attacks don't change anyone's mind. It also adds credence to the argument that company grade officers need more practice in writing short essays.

What the ###### is with this "rape song" bullshit? Liquid said that three or four times now you're starting up with it.

I've been in a lot of fighter squadrons and sung a lot of songs in a lot of bars in a lot of countries. NOT ONE of them has condoned, mentioned, suggested, etc, rape. Not one. Crude? Yes. Extremely so. Rape? ###### no. The list of songs liquid said was apparently from a google search and even parroted the Wikipedia description. Most of those songs I've never heard of. The rest have lyrics that are variable (s&m, Chicago, etc) meaning that there are infinite verses possible and many are made up on the spot. So because you can do a google search and find some lyrics that some British rugby team used or in an old Vietnam songbook does not mean that those are lyrics actually sung in a fighter bar.

I'm not saying that there has never been an Air Force person to sing a song that did. But to suggest that there is some culture of "rape songs" in the air force or in fighter squadrons is so ######ing ignorant of the truth it's unbelievable.

^this

What rubs me is that the culture I was raised in and enjoy being a part of is under attack for no good reason. I'm usually the first to raise my glass in song. While singing "Chicago", if "a woman came in for a canoe, a canoe from the store" and left with a "glass bottom boat" instead, I can't help but laugh. I drink whiskey, tell jokes, partake in shenanigans and somehow- despite all this- I have never committed or been accused of sexual assault. When I'm not singing offensive songs written by heroes of wars-gone-by, the other 99% of my time at work I'm performing my secondary duty, or preparing/flying/debriefing a mission. I think us rowdy line flyers are being misunderstood.

But the blame doesn't all lie with "upper management" that is out of touch with the worker bees. I had a commander tell us amidst all this witch-hunting and sleuthing for porno in the squadron to "use some judgment". It is the poor judgment of a few that we now face the consequences of. I'm all for personal accountability - it is the opposite of diapering the masses for one rogue turd. Give me the latitude befitting my rank as an Officer. If singing from our songbooks once a month in the bar is now considered ball walking, let me take that stroll. Hold people accountable if they go to far, but attacking a culture that builds trust and comradery - no matter how juvenile it may seem to the outsider - only serves to hurt morale when you already have a morale problem.

[17D_guy]

Well, the worst part about it that I can see, is how a female in the squadron can be put in a really shitty situation in which she has to either go along with the general culture of singing rape songs on a Friday night and be "a cool chick", or speak out against it, and be thought of as a man hating feminist. It's the same as being a minority and having to listen to racist jokes, and act like it's no big deal and you're still a "bro", because people who aren't "bros" don't get taken care of, and nobody wants to hang out with that guy.

It's one thing if a group of guys are out drinking and saying whatever, you can choose to not hang out with this people after work. But when it's the entire goddamn squadron doing it, and there's a precedent of ostracizing people who don't get along with that culture (officially or unofficially -- if you have a habit of hooking up your "bros" later on in your career, and being a "bro" means you hang out with everyone on Friday nights, drink, and sing rape songs, you're fucking ostracizing people who choose not to do that). But I suppose tradition is worth it?

Certain communities have a culture that demands conformity, and it seems kind of shitty to have to have to conform to a culture that's hostile to someone of your background. The military especially has this problem because the line between on duty and off duty is so blurred that it may as well not even exist. I'm no feminist, but that is the problem, and that is what needs to change. There was a time when it was okay to be openly racist, but not anymore. Now it's time to extend that same courtesy to women in the military.

This very much, and it pains me to say that. Neither my wife or myself imbibe. My wife is also very conservative, religious, and a hard worker (strat'd 2/19). She loves flying, being an Airman, and being an Officer. She is very disturbed with how... accepted many of these things are in a professional environment. This includes offices during duty hours, and the Sq bar on (mandatory) Friday calls and other times.

Very often she'll come home and complain about this. That dudes are saying very sexist stuff at work, but if she says anything that she'll be labeled and ostracized even more than she is simply as a woman in a flight suit. Some things she can't let pass (out right disrespect/name calling of women) and worries how this will effect the next assignments of deployments, etc. Naming ceremonies are a particular hate of hers. Apparently in her Sq all names are derived from some sexual scenario/failing.

I don't know how vital these traditions are to your culture, I'm not in it. I don't get to communicate with pilots/aircrew as much as I'd like, but the few times I've head the head/box thing come up it's frustrating more than offensive. It's more "Really? we stopped doing this in middle school" vs. "OMG so offensive!"

I joined this board because I realized that I'm missing out on a very important part of what the AF does and I needed to hear it from the folks that do it. Thanks for that. I agree with you guys for a lot of the things you've lost had stolen (tabs/Friday shirts), but this one I live with first order negative effects of it and I can't agree with.

When there's only 3~4 women in your whole Sq you might not be getting the honest feedback you think you're getting.

[Homestar]

The American public is demanding that military culture conform to modern corporate standards with regard to sexism. Okay. What the American public will get is a fighter (or Ranger, or S.E.A.L. or specops) culture that conforms to modern corporate standards across the board. Not too many tie wearing American businessmen willing to strap on a jet and fly into the fire, so I give our military one more generation before we're unable to effectively fight a real war (I'm talking real war, not this modern bs we're doing in Afg) and completely lose the warrior's edge.

[LookieRookie]

This very much, and it pains me to say that. Neither my wife or myself imbibe. My wife is also very conservative, religious, and a hard worker (strat'd 2/19). She loves flying, being an Airman, and being an Officer. She is very disturbed with how... accepted many of these things are in a professional environment. This includes offices during duty hours, and the Sq bar on (mandatory) Friday calls and other times. .

Say if all of her other complaints were fixed (crude jokes, etc) would you still have a problem with the drinking part in the squadron bar since you both do not consume? Religious or otherwise.

Edited July 7, 2013 by LookieRookie

[17D_guy]

The American public is demanding that military culture conform to modern corporate standards with regard to sexism. Okay. What the American public will get is a fighter (or Ranger, or S.E.A.L. or specops) culture that conforms to modern corporate standards across the board. Not too many tie wearing American businessmen willing to strap on a jet and fly into the fire, so I give our military one more generation before we're unable to effectively fight a real war (I'm talking real war, not this modern bs we're doing in Afg) and completely lose the warrior's edge.

Just wondering,

How is calling a squadron mate a bitch for asking you to not tell a graphic story of a one-night-stand blowjob in front of her going to make you keep that warrior edge? Or then Bro tells that story of being asked to stop to the ADO who Q3'd said female for not having a checklist in hand, CC said he wouldn't have done it, but didn't change anything. This ADO also determines the deployment assignments. The same guy who said females who deployed together previously can't deploy together anymore since they need experience on different crews. However, Bros get to go with their buds whenever they'd like.

If I didn't hear it and see it first hand I'd call BS on that story above. Unfortunately I can't.

There is some stupid BS that came out of that Great AF Porno hunt (family pics, books), but at least where I'm at and the wife works, there's a problem. I find it hard to believe it's relegated to our little piece of the AF.

Wrapping these traditions in the "warrior ethos" is not examining them critically (as SOS in-corr/ERAU would have you do) to see what value, if any, they provide.

Say if all of her other complaints were fixed (crude jokes, etc) would you still have a problem with the drinking part in the squadron bar since you both do not consume? Religious or otherwise.

Nope. I DD when I can, and enjoy the camaraderie when a few coworkers get a little tanked. I don't have a Sq bar, but if I did I would be there on occasion.

[Liquid]

The American public is demanding that military culture conform to modern corporate standards with regard to sexism. Okay. What the American public will get is a fighter (or Ranger, or S.E.A.L. or specops) culture that conforms to modern corporate standards across the board. Not too many tie wearing American businessmen willing to strap on a jet and fly into the fire, so I give our military one more generation before we're unable to effectively fight a real war (I'm talking real war, not this modern bs we're doing in Afg) and completely lose the warrior's edge.

Bullshit. The warriors will be just as deadly without the words games, songs and sexist behaviors. Racists and homophobes made/make the same lame arguments about how integrating destroys our fighting culture. Not a real war in Afghanistan? Unbelievable.

[Champ Kind]

Not a real war in Afghanistan? Unbelievable.

He's talking about contested operations. Maybe you've read about it somewhere. You know, a conflict where air superiority can't be automatically assumed.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Champ Kind

[Liquid]

He's talking about contested operations. Maybe you've read about it somewhere. You know, a conflict where air superiority can't be automatically assumed.

Ok, that is a real war. Got it.

[BigE]

Just wondering,

How is calling a squadron mate a bitch for asking you to not tell a graphic story of a one-night-stand blowjob in front of her going to make you keep that warrior edge? Or then Bro tells that story of being asked to stop to the ADO who Q3'd said female for not having a checklist in hand, CC said he wouldn't have done it, but didn't change anything. This ADO also determines the deployment assignments. The same guy who said females who deployed together previously can't deploy together anymore since they need experience on different crews. However, Bros get to go with their buds whenever they'd like.

If I didn't hear it and see it first hand I'd call BS on that story above. Unfortunately I can't.

There is some stupid BS that came out of that Great AF Porno hunt (family pics, books), but at least where I'm at and the wife works, there's a problem. I find it hard to believe it's relegated to our little piece of the AF.

Wrapping these traditions in the "warrior ethos" is not examining them critically (as SOS in-corr/ERAU would have you do) to see what value, if any, they provide.

Nope. I DD when I can, and enjoy the camaraderie when a few coworkers get a little tanked. I don't have a Sq bar, but if I did I would be there on occasion.

The 'bro' you mention above isn't. Your frau's squadron also sounds like it is trying to be something that it isn't and is lacking in any actual leadership. From your location I'll make some guesses and say what has been commonly attributed to the 'fighter pilot' culture is a long f-ing way from what is happening in your wife's squadron and how CAF squadron's that kill people and break things for a living actually conduct business. I do believe her community probably has too many young punks with not enough silverbacks to f-ing squash said behavior when and how appropriate. That's unfortunate. And if Offut is where you are still at I would say that yes, the experience(s) you describe do not reflect the rest of the CAF. I hope things change for the better in that regard.

e

[disgruntledemployee]

Just wondering,

How is calling a squadron mate a bitch for asking you to not tell a graphic story of a one-night-stand blowjob in front of her going to make you keep that warrior edge? Or then Bro tells that story of being asked to stop to the ADO who Q3'd said female for not having a checklist in hand, CC said he wouldn't have done it, but didn't change anything. This ADO also determines the deployment assignments. The same guy who said females who deployed together previously can't deploy together anymore since they need experience on different crews. However, Bros get to go with their buds whenever they'd like.

Do want advice or do you all have a plan all figured out?

On a side note, when CCs see bullshit Q2s or Q3s, they often don't point blank make the evaluator change the score. However, threatening to take away the Q code of said evaluator for dumbass grades usually fixes the problem. Or it could be that the flight sucked.

Out

[BigE]

The American public is demanding that military culture conform to modern corporate standards with regard to sexism. Okay. What the American public will get is a fighter (or Ranger, or S.E.A.L. or specops) culture that conforms to modern corporate standards across the board. Not too many tie wearing American businessmen willing to strap on a jet and fly into the fire, so I give our military one more generation before we're unable to effectively fight a real war (I'm talking real war, not this modern bs we're doing in Afg) and completely lose the warrior's edge.

I'll agree with Liquid here - the above is, lacking a better word, stupid. Sexism does not equal or factor into a warrior ethos. The problem, which you are (I think) trying to actaully and rightly get at, is the knee jerk over re-action of trying to remove aspects of our culture that are under fire but not actually part of the problem (as Noonin has already discussed).

[Homestar]

I guess my point is that the fighter community should be able to develop it's own culture based on the problems they are forced to confront in war. I didn't want any part of that culture as a pilot by personal choice, but I wouldn't force them to conform to my idea of what a culture should be.

[Azimuth]

Do want advice or do you all have a plan all figured out?

On a side note, when CCs see bullshit Q2s or Q3s, they often don't point blank make the evaluator change the score.

Except for the fact that 11-202V2 says the Evaluator's judgment is the final grade. I've personally seen an EP tell a Sq/CC that he wasn't changing the grade for check ride when the Sq/CC disagreed with him on the grade.

[Slander]

This very much, and it pains me to say that. Neither my wife or myself imbibe. My wife is also very conservative, religious, and a hard worker (strat'd 2/19). She loves flying, being an Airman, and being an Officer. She is very disturbed with how... accepted many of these things are in a professional environment. This includes offices during duty hours, and the Sq bar on (mandatory) Friday calls and other times.

Very often she'll come home and complain about this. That dudes are saying very sexist stuff at work, but if she says anything that she'll be labeled and ostracized even more than she is simply as a woman in a flight suit. Some things she can't let pass (out right disrespect/name calling of women) and worries how this will effect the next assignments of deployments, etc. Naming ceremonies are a particular hate of hers. Apparently in her Sq all names are derived from some sexual scenario/failing.

Ok, where to begin...1st, Offut is not a fighter base, it's an ISR base. It sounds like some guys there may have the wrong idea of a fighter squadron roll call...I've been in a few fighter squadrons and all but two (out of hundreds) of the bros call signs had nothing to do with sex stories. One that did was changed shortly after we shook off our hangovers, and the other the guy liked (and was about himself, no one else) so it stuck. Nearly all of them had to do with flying-related buffoonery or a clever pun on someone's last name. The Nellis test always applied. (i.e. "Good morning, I'm Capt XXXXXXX and I am the mission commander." If XXXXXX didn't immediately make him lose all credibility or wasn't obviously racist/sexist/offensive, pass. If not, new name. Alternatively, CNN test applied: "Capt John XXXXX Doe's aircraft was destroyed today after his successful ejection.")

If your wife is feeling like the culture in her squadron is unacceptable, she has a right and a duty to say so to the commander. If he tells her to pound sand, thats exactly what the IG is for, especially if there are career implications from her voicing her discomfort (deployments, Q2/3, etc). That is the culture that, to me, is patently unacceptable in the USAF. Also, her commander would be an idiot not to immediately and aggressively address it, especially given the current climate. I am lucky that I haven't been in a scenario like the shitty one you describe. I recognize that it would be socially difficult and require a lot of moral courage to do that. However, there are mechanisms in place to fix this if she wants.

Not using these mechanisms is part of the frustration for some people with the TSgt Smith story, she never told anyone at the time she was offended, she waited 16 years and sold her story to huffpo. (Not the assualts part of her story, the Korea / Shaw parts, obviously the assault parts are horrible and should've been addressed regardless of time delay) My point is, there is a slim possibility that people are too oblivious to read into her social signs and recognize they've crossed a line.

That being said, from your end, the line to avoid crossing is to force her or your lifestyle choices onto others the way she feels theirs are forced onto her. So, maybe a mandatory binge drinking fest every Friday isn't the big one but neither is removing all booze from the squadrons and shutting down call signs and roll calls, in my opinion.

A roll call / naming / first friday is supposed to build esprit de corps in a squadron by providing a closed venue to sport-bitch about support agencies, complain about how no one understands, and tell funny stories about each other. It is supposed to be a good time, and let everyone blow off some steam. About half the time I don't drink, and I still love hearing my friends' stories. We work hard, we spend a lot of time together, there needs to be a controlled environment to air grievances. If that's not what those social events are in her squadron then the mayor (and by default) sq cc are fucking it up wholesale.

[Azimuth]

If your wife is feeling like the culture in her squadron is unacceptable, she has a right and a duty to say so to the commander. If he tells her to pound sand, thats exactly what the IG is for, especially if there are career implications from her voicing her discomfort (deployments, Q2/3, etc).

You're saying for someone to go to the IG if they tell their spouse bitches about their husband getting Q-2/Q-3'd?

[Slander]

You're saying for someone to go to the IG if they tell their spouse bitches about their husband getting Q-2/Q-3'd?

No. I'm saying that if what 17D says is true, that the guy who controls deployments and hands out Q2/3s to HER is doing so because she feels its retribution for her saying "hey, how about we not name this new guy 'Facial' because it offends me" then she should absolutely talk to her commander, then if her commander says "boys will be boys" then she should talk to the IG.

[Azimuth]

You seem like a smart guy. Figure it out.

Yes. In uniform in a federal building. So would in uniform at a downtown bar/event, representing the AF anywhere, or performing duties in/out of uniform. You are always of course subject to our laws and the UCMJ, so there aren't many places where you can sexually harass someone with impunity. Probably best to steer clear all together and take the hit to your morale. Growing up isn't all that bad. We do have wars to fight.

Since you're in the know, did the current CSAF condone or was against "rape songs" when he was a Sq/CC at Hill, OG at Moody, or Wing King at Kunsan?

[sky_king]

To me, the most offensive thing about the songs everyone is talking about is how stretched the definition of "rhyming" gets sometimes. Especially the verses made up in the moment.

[17D_guy]

... And if Offut is where you are still at I would say that yes, the experience(s) you describe do not reflect the rest of the CAF. I hope things change for the better in that regard...

Ok, where to begin...1st, Offut is not a fighter base, ..

Good point gents, thanks for the clarity.

As she was going through her training I kept telling her how I was jealous that she was going to be in an Ops Sq, camaraderie, mission-focus and all that. Being career-MSG I was excited to see how the other half lived.

I think the double disappointment of our actual experiences weighs heavily.

No. I'm saying that if what 17D says is true...

Said individual and Q3 reason (checklist in hand) is true. It being retaliation for calling something out was a scenario I was attempting to liken to Joe1234's statements. Apologies that wasn't clearer. Point is - she's constantly worried about how her reaction to these "non-bro's" is going to effect her professionally (and not rank climbing wise).

Thank you all for the clarity on a lot of the points here.

Edited July 7, 2013 by 17D_guy

[sqwatch]

Since you're in the know, did the current CSAF condone or was against "rape songs" when he was a Sq/CC at Hill, OG at Moody, or Wing King at Kunsan?

As a sq/cc, If he condoned the Dixie chicks doling out old-fashions on Friday afternoons in the bar, it doesn't matter anymore because he answers wholesale to congress. I'm all for unrestricted climbs regardless of the time-of-day or runway, because in my little world that is awesome. The wing commander disagrees, but he used to think it was awesome too. Sight pictures change.

Edited July 7, 2013 by sqwatch

[Danny Noonin]

Since you're in the know, did the current CSAF condone or was against "rape songs" when he was a Sq/CC at Hill, OG at Moody, or Wing King at Kunsan?

Stop with the "rape songs" bullshit already.

[disgruntledemployee]

Except for the fact that 11-202V2 says the Evaluator's judgment is the final grade. I've personally seen an EP tell a Sq/CC that he wasn't changing the grade for check ride when the Sq/CC disagreed with him on the grade.

And I've seen the opposite when the EP was shown as being a gigantic douche. See, we both win. Woooohooo!

JFC,

Out

PS: as for callsigns, I've heard a few from the ladies that made me blush and they seemed damned proud of them too (I asked).

[HeloDude]

AAFES to stop selling adult magazines amid slumping sales

I'm sure this decision had nothing with the recent sexual assault/harassment issues the military has been dealing with. To be honest, I'm somewhat surprised this didn't happen sooner.