What's wrong with the Air Force?

[HU&W]

Why can't people just wear the uniform that makes sense for the job they do?

[17D_guy]

Ugh.  Welsh gets one thing right during his tenure as CSAF and these dudes manage to mess it up.  I can't egress this clownshow fast enough.  Even from 2000 miles away I can see the grubby fingerprints of underemployed E-9s all over this one.

For some reason the Chief's E9's quote in the whole thing pisses me off more than anything else.

Somehow the ABU doesn't remind me that I'm part of something bigger, despite it being 75% as uncomfortable as blues.  Or a tradition that lasted for only 4 years, that was tossed with much fanfare and relief, was something that we should harken back to like "the good ole' days."

I'm getting tired of E9's thinking they're a step above their other enlisted brethren and forgetting that they're in place to provide council and feedback.  No to nod endlessly at every drop of feces coming out of leadership good-idea hole. 

 

Just give us back fatigues so we can look kinda nice, and kinda like we're in the military.

[brabus]

Anyone who believes our cheap blues represent "heritage and tradition" to an extent we warrant forced wear haven't been outside their cubicle at shoe palace, ever (said cubicle is shipped to the Deid for them to get "their combat time.")  How do "combat utility" uniforms not significantly outweigh blues when it comes to accomplishments throughout history and spawning of tradition?  I think we should all have to paint our faces black during black history month, you know, to really help our heritage sink in.  Dammit, I just gave some E-9 a great idea and EPR bullet.

Edited November 16, 2015 by brabus

[billy pilgrim]

Because the rejoicing about Blues Monday must have happened while these 2 were deployed and fighting the war.

https://www.jointbasemdl.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123463377

 

But this is different than Blues Monday's...

[sqwatch]

I support any effort that makes nonners easily discernible from operators. I will say that if the day comes when the SARC shows up 5 days a week/6 hours a day in their blues, I will take a small moment of reflection to appreciate the heritage of the uniform while I roll my sleeves up and notch my flight cap..

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[Vito]

 I retired after 28 years (26 at MCGuire) in 2014, Glad IDid!  That last time I wore Blues was when I graduated From UPT. 

[17D_guy]

 I retired after 28 years (26 at MCGuire) in 2014, Glad IDid!  That last time I wore Blues was when I graduated From UPT. 

Obviously you were unprofessional that whole time!

[czecksikhs]

They found the only thing worse than putting a navigator in charge of things, a total shoe clerk.

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[Toasty]

They found the only thing worse than putting a navigator in charge of things, a total shoe clerk.

 

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First thought: Hey, fuck you.

Second thought:  I've had some downright terrible nav CC's...

Edited November 18, 2015 by Toasty

[MD]

Anyone who believes our cheap blues represent "heritage and tradition" to an extent we warrant forced wear haven't been outside their cubicle at shoe palace, ever (said cubicle is shipped to the Deid for them to get "their combat time.")  How do "combat utility" uniforms not significantly outweigh blues when it comes to accomplishments throughout history and spawning of tradition?  I think we should all have to paint our faces black during black history month, you know, to really help our heritage sink in.  Dammit, I just gave some E-9 a great idea and EPR bullet.

Wearing blues isn't enough. I think we need more. Mess Dress Mondays, is where it should be.

Clothing Sales at the BX needs the business.....

[Ram]

I'm leaving my current assignment at DLI for greener pastures, but let me relay to you bros the uniform policy I've been following for the last year:

 

Mon:   ABUs

Tue:   Flight Suit

Wed:   ABUs

Thur:   Blues

Fri:     Flight Suit

 

Why?  I have no fucking idea.  Any complaints about wearing a different uniform every day of the week have been met with: "Well, you don't HAVE to wear the FDU on T/F, so you can just wear ABUs instead and have some consistency."

 

Only justification offered:  "It's an Air Force uniform you are required to have, so why not wear it."   I countered with: "Well, I'm required to have a Mess Dress too.  When are we going to start doing Mess Dress Mondays?"

 

As an aside:  Avoid DLI if you can, especially the 314TRS.  Go to DLI-East if you have the option.

[17D_guy]

And another version of the 910 coming out.  Wish we could all perform to the level of AFPC.

 

Also, fuck VPC.

[Harpy]

On November 18, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Ram said:

 Avoid DLI if you can, especially the 314TRS.  Go to DLI-East if you have the option.

Really? Last I checked that's still in Monterey, must be terrible... Could be in Cannon or Altus.

[Ram]

If you want to be a 34 year old O-4 getting treated like a pipeline airman fresh out of Lackland, be my guest. However, if given the option, go to DLI East for language.

But yeah, Monterey is nice.

[zach braff]

Ram and Harpy - the DLI situation changes with commanders methinks.  I was there - same sq (314th) - 2012-2013 and it was the most big-boy training I have ever participated in.  No crazy uniform rules other than the AETC mandated blues Monday (I wore ABUs all other times, pilot classmates wore flightsuits).  I went through 2 Sq/CCs with the 314th and their only real requirement for the officer students was to stay out of trouble, pass your tests (or see them if you were having trouble so they could go to bat for you), and enjoy the student life.  O's would help out with some of the first-term airmen events from time to time, but it was typically voluntary unless mandated by higher powers.  I can count on one hand the amount of times I was mandated to do something outside of schoolwork and basic AF requirements (PT test, dental appt, etc) during my ~18 months there. 

Ram's experience with the squadron sounds like a complete 180 from what my pals and I experienced - I'm sorry it sucked.  Get another cool CC in there and I'll bet it becomes super again.  The language stuff will remain hard though.

 

zb

[slackline]

Ram and Harpy - the DLI situation changes with commanders methinks.  I was there - same sq (314th) - 2012-2013 and it was the most big-boy training I have ever participated in.  No crazy uniform rules other than the AETC mandated blues Monday (I wore ABUs all other times, pilot classmates wore flightsuits).  I went through 2 Sq/CCs with the 314th and their only real requirement for the officer students was to stay out of trouble, pass your tests (or see them if you were having trouble so they could go to bat for you), and enjoy the student life.  O's would help out with some of the first-term airmen events from time to time, but it was typically voluntary unless mandated by higher powers.  I can count on one hand the amount of times I was mandated to do something outside of schoolwork and basic AF requirements (PT test, dental appt, etc) during my ~18 months there. 

Ram's experience with the squadron sounds like a complete 180 from what my pals and I experienced - I'm sorry it sucked.  Get another cool CC in there and I'll bet it becomes super again.  The language stuff will remain hard though.

 

zb

There in 2011, and I had a similar, if not more relaxed atmosphere. Never even wore blues. If go back in a heartbeat!

[epsilon]

I did DLI-East in Washington.  Private school 2 blocks from the white house.  1 on 1 instruction.  Drank coffee and chatted for 4-5 hours.  Never wore uniform the entire time.  Best assignment I've had in the AF.

[Prosuper]

I guess this will be a new CBT for the more sensitive AF members.

https://youtu.be/Sz0o9clVQu8

Edited December 11, 2015 by Prosuper

[SurelySerious]

I guess this will be a new CBT for the more sensitive AF members.

https://youtu.be/Sz0o9clVQu8

That's way too effective and frank (ok, and we know they don't understand satire) to be used by the Air Force.

[Prosuper]

I wonder if a 4 star's who pass on will be included in this, I'll be dead so I wont give a shit but it will be a slap in the face to my family. Maybe they could get the funds to honor by dropping a few bands, TIB, and General officers quarters remodel.

 https://wjhl.com/2015/12/15/21-gun-salute-eliminated-from-air-force-funerals-due-to-lack-of-funding-personnel/?utm_content=bufferaef77&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

[SuperWSO]

The AF can't afford the personnel, but I'm sure M2 would be glad to empty a magazine at a funeral. 

Its not a 21 gun, just one gun 30 times.

[ATIS]

Stay on the left/VA side of that Virgina/DC line with that 30-rounder M2...just sayin.

 

ATIS...wondering where his 30-rounders might be???

[panchbarnes]

USAF/AETC leaders missed multiple opportunities to do the right things regarding the 2011 315 TRS investigation.  The learning lessons from the "dark ages" are far more valuable than any SAPR, GreenDot, NoFear Act, Suicide Prevention training (yes it's all applicable here).  Leadership loses all credibility when they sweep these incidents under the rug.  Part of the reasons why Airmen are jumping ship and do not care about your In-Res PME, promotion, bonuses, and toxic leadership "opportunities."

https://www.reddit.com/r/AirForce/comments/4k67em/goodfellow_finally_releases_2011_command_directed/

Excerpts:

"First off, thanks to the OP for getting this report. I kinda already knew what was in it, but I'm glad that it's seeing the light of day. I'm hoping the individual interviews are released at some point in the near future, as well.

I was part of the cadre there for most of the first year of Rolirad's tenure. Quinene showed up later as the flight commander of the officer course. I don't have much bad to say about Lt Col Rolirad; I didn't necessarily agree with some of the things she did, but I understand what she was trying to do. I never personally saw her do any of the things she was accused of.

Quinene, on the other hand, is a sexual predator of the first order. I've heard variations on the same stories: how if female 14N students wanted a good assignment, they had to sleep with him; how he'd go in and "hook" a female student briefing because she wouldn't sleep with him; how he reinstated a female student back into a class after she had washed out because she was sleeping with him; how he was sleeping with an enlisted instructor; so on and so forth. Now, I admit, I have no first-hand knowledge of this. But with this much smoke, there had to be a fire. And I'm not sure he only did this at Goodfellow. I was talking to an intel officer who knew him in Korea. This person said Quinene wanted to borrow his car so that he could go pick up some SrA for a "date."

And, as this thread alludes to, justice was never really truly served. After his DO tenure, Quinene went to the Marine Corps Staff College in Quantico, a pretty prestigious gig for an Air Force guy. This investigation went down while he was there, so he ended up on admin hold in the DC for a while. I figured he was there until the investigation was completed and the court-martial proceedings could begin. Nope, instead he got sent to the CAOC for a year. That's right, instead of being prosecuted, HE GOT SENT TO BE IN CHARGE OF SOME OF THE SAME LIEUTENANTS AND CAPTAINS HE HAD TERRORIZING AND ASSAULTING 18 MONTHS BEFORE!!!

The small bit of justice that was actually done was that, after his deployment, he was assigned to HQ AETC (where, presumably, senior leaders could keep an eye on him). He ended up getting passed over for promotion and had to get out before he was retirement eligible. Last I heard he was in the San Antonio area. He had been working for some local politician, but I'm not sure if that's still the case.

As you can probably tell, I feel pretty passionate about this. I can't tell you how many times I've told people that I was an instructor during this time and they ask, "So what was the deal?" The damage that Quinene (and to a lesser extent, Rolirad) did to the Air Force intelligence community will felt for years to come. How many good ISR students (and staff) were totally soured by their experience and bailed at the first opportunity? Worse still, how many of them left GAFB thinking that sort of behavior was OK?

So, if any victims are out there reading this, I'm sorry that we, as a staff, didn't do more to protect you. Five years later and it still bothers me."

"Finally "we" get to see 30% of the story acknowledged by the AF. I was there for 1.5 years of the terror. The report is missing a vast amount of information. It only addresses infractions against officer students (which I'm not downplaying, all of their complaints are 100% valid; the rape case is also missing). Enlisted students suffered greatly, office-instructors suffered greatly, and enlisted-instructors suffered greatly.

Yes, their tenure at the 315 TRS is known as the dark ages to all those who experienced it.

In my 19 year AF career I've never personally experienced/witnessed anything like the horror show Karen Rolirad and David Quinene put on. The crazy part is I was never a direct victim of their wrath; but I feel it weighing heavy on my soul to this day. I am guilty of the bystander effect. I saw the transgressions but did not take requisite action. I do not believe it would've done any good given the mountains of IG complaints by other instructors; but that is no excuse, it was my duty. I failed at my duty. I own that. I have to live with that. My inputs may have turned the tide.

If you have ever been victim to a toxic leader, a truly toxic leader, it is something that is not easy to cope with; even 5 years after the fact. I saw many peers, friends, and students (officer & enlisted) belittled, unjustly punished, careers destroyed, career altering decisions made, near suicides, etc because of Rodirad and Quinene's dark rule of fear, intimidation, and bullying.

I'm not sure what's worse. The fact there are officers like these two in an American military or the fact that they are allowed to get away with it. Where is the courts-martial? TIs at Lackland get prison, as they should. If you're Rolirad (who repeatedly violated several UCMJ articles and USCs) you get to retire honorably and get a job for the city of San Antonio as an AF liaison. I do not profess to know all the reasons why there are morale issues in the AF, but I can certainly attest that the lack of accountability in the officer corps (O-5+) and SNCO corps is a contributing factor."

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by panchbarnes

[panchbarnes]

Redacted CDI report in its entirety released...It's only a glimpse of how toxic it was.

And from one of the Facebook comments:

" Can't agree more. As an Captain Reservist, I hated seeing my 2d Lt classmates talk about how this is how the Air Force works, that you had to suck up and party with the Patch in order to get a good assignment. A newly divorced, highly inappropriate Patch I may add. Rolirad encouraged and covered up for him and the rest of the rotten instructors. There were only a few good instructors, and they were enlsited or civilian."

Responsive Records.pdf

Edited June 11, 2016 by panchbarnes
Full report is out

[Marlboro BLACK]

https://www.kwtx.com/content/news/Waco--Hoverboard-could-derail-BU-grads-Air-Force-career-hopes-383195741.html

Looks like ROTC Captains seem to have a lot of time on their hands these days