Fehrenbach Thread

[Guest Cap-10]

There has to be more to this story...

During the interview, when he was talking about the 6-9 people on the base that knew about his "situation" and he mentioned a couple people in the OSI.

OSI doesn't get involved just for shit's and grins...in fact, I don't even think the SQ/CC has the ability to use OSI if he just wanted to investigate a guy for the possibility of being gay. I'm fairly sure they only get invovled when there are criminal implications.

My guess is that someone (military or civilian) threw out his name for possible involvement in something criminal. OSI gets involved and during their investigation, determine that he's been handing out free passes to his ass. When all is said and done, there is not enough (or circumstantial at best) evidence to proceed with the criminal stuff, but mother AF can't un-learn the fact that they now know he's gay. They serve him his papers, he fights back, and here we are.

My bet is that anything involving any civilian criminal stuff is probably protected by the Privacy Act, or some attorney/client priviledge. I wouldn't be surprised if we never get an official statement about the other half of the story.

Cheers,

Cap-10

[Hacker]

Dude deserves a pension.

Unless there is more to the story.

[Whitman]

Regardless it's still pretty shitty, sts. Dude deserves a pension. Hopefully DADT will go away in the next few years and he can rejoin to finish his last two years.

He would get it under the proposed flex retirement plan where you are vested (granted only 25% of base pay, but better than nothing) to collect retirement at the 10 yr point. While the all or nothing retirement plan of today is quite nice if you make it 20 yrs, it screws a lot of guys over, who served 15+ yrs and didn't go the distance to 20.

Edited May 27, 2009 by Whitman

[Hacker]

Now, it could be possible that the USAF was doing him a "favor" by discharging for being gay rather than for something more severely against the UCMJ, but that's unlikely, and if that were the case I don't think the person in question here would be protesting the decision like he is.

I wouldn't be so quick to doubt that scenario just because he went on a media-blitz defensive threat reaction.

Kelly Flynn went on a media blitz, too, and the story she was spewing out to the media ('I was punished for loving the wrong man!') was completely different than what the actual charges were against her.

[Herk Driver]

I would still say he deserves a pension.

Why? He didn't make it to 20 years (the mandatory lenghth of time to serve and receive a pension) under the system that he signed on the dotted line for. Just talking from a pure he "deserves" standpoint, we all know that if something happens and we don't make it to 20 (excluding medical, etc) that we dont' get shit. It's an all or nothing proposition. He doesn't "deserve" anything.

As others have said, you have no idea what he's been charged with so reserve judgement on whether he "deserves" a pension until all the facts are out.

[FlyingBull]

It probably isn't helpful for anyone to speculate too much. Though it would seem that something had to spur the investigation, there is no information about what that might have been and getting a bit specific with the speculation could easily lead to nasty rumors that this guy may have to fight on top of whatever legal action he his undergoing.

[Steve Davies]

Yes, he may have done something wrong aside from being gay. But we don't know that.

A few people do. They just are not saying anything because it would be totally inappropriate, and perhaps even enough to warrant a litigious response.

[brickhistory]

Where are the calls for all the folks with DUIs earned just shy of 20? Don't they deserve 'special' attention/treatment?

This guy broke whatever rules he was convicted of/accepted punishment for and got caught, prosecuted, sentenced, etc.

The DADT aspect is for a larger discussion or law change, but the fact of the matter is this guy, in this case, was busted shy of his 20.

Thousands upon thousands of other dudes/dudettes have been in the same boat - either for being gay when any hint of that was not kosher, under DADT, for DUI, for losing classified, for falling asleep at post, whatever. For breaking a fairly strictly enforced rule/law and being punished for it. Why no calls for those to be given another chance?

I really do respect the fact that this guy put it on the line flying, much less combat flying. It does not give him a pass to 20 if, as is evident by the fact that he is being forced out at 18, due to either being convicted or accepting non-judicial punishment that results in a discharge prior to retirement.

If we discharge SSgts and Lts for breaking the rules, why is this guy above them? Because he's at 18 and close?

Again, again, again, it would be very helpful to know the full story and facts. That may/may not ever happen.

But this guy accepted, at some point in the process, the proceedings moving against him. To cry 'foul' after the fact is disengeneous at best, hypocritical at worst. To go public with his story and tieing it to the repeal of DADT is something else besides an individual's life.

He knew the rules, he broke the rules, he got caught breaking those rules, he pays the penalty. This guy being a good dude and warrior aside, why is that concept not being applied by some?

Write your congressman regarding overturning DADT or any other law you don't like. Until that change is made, that or any other unpopular law is liable to be applied.

Now, to stir the chili just a little - and it's purely hypothetical - I don't know the guy, I don't know that he ever did/would do anything like this, but - has he ever served on a court-martial board or been a commander that had to kick somebody out of the Air Force? If so, the defendant broke the rules and this guy helped enforce those rules. One could narrow it even further to apply to a DADT case, but it doesn't have to be that example. Why is this guy above the rules as they exist now?

[Herk Driver]

Of course, if the rumors flying about are true that he did something actually deserving of the discharge, the whole issue of him being gay is a moot point. I don't put much stock in rumors though when it comes to throwing an otherwise respected officer under a bus.

I don't put much stock in rumors either but have been around long enough to know that there are two sides to every story and your blanket appraisal of "I think it's best to give him the benefit of the doubt" is a little off the mark as well.

I don't need to know all the details to know that UCMJ violations won't be made public normally. The Kelly Flinn case is a perfect example. She went public to try and paint the USAF into a corner about pushing her out over adultery, which was true in part. There was more to the story. There were also multiple charges of failing to obey and other violations that she decided to not make public until it benefited here (to sell her book) and the AF couldn't make them public to build it's case. I will not pass judgement on the individual here, but also will not carte blanche say that the military justice system is so corrupt that I can't trust in it either as you have been williing to do.

You won't throw the 'respected officer' under the bus, but are willing to throw the entire institution of military justice under the bus for the benefit of one man. That's the difference.

[Vandal]

Since the LtCol in question is stationed out of my local AFB, one of our local news statons talked to him. He said that he was content to basically go away quietly but figured he could work to get the law changed. He also stated that he was outed by a civilian and only recently came out to his family. I will post up the link to the interview as soon as its posted.

Personally, I think that gays should be allowed to serve openly in the military. There are two gay guys in my fraternity and they are some of the coolest guys I have met. One is flamingly gay and the other is very normal, you wouldn't know he is gay unless you knew already. I had to check myself when we rushed them and do some serious personal reflection about it, this included taking time to talk with both of them about their sexuality. I still struggle with acceptance of gays, however as long as they don't push it on me, I could care less. There is no reason that gays should not be able to openly serve if they have the desire to sign up and put their lives on the line like so many other Americans just because they like dudes or chicks.

Edited May 27, 2009 by Vandal

[Vandal]

Here is the link with his interview.

linky

It is under the video links on the right side of the main image.

[Vertigo]

Here is the link with his interview.

linky

It is under the video links on the right side of the main image.

Direct link to video

[Shortbus]

So did the CC violate the Don't ASK part of DADT? I thought thats what the OSI was for. Sitting outside brothels and catchin in the act. But of course they couldnt do that with Jill.

They better be careful with specifics I'm pretty sure there is going to be a rush of guys that are sick of our "outstanding" leadership and think F$@# the easy road out of the Mil.

Gotcha. You know the media they can't get half their shit straight. Big surprise there, plus 99% of their readers eyes would cross and glaze if WSO was in the paper and they couldnt complete the article. As they couldn't grasp what WSO was and think.. .humm not a pilot doesn't matter.

Now you may have a case if you say he is booted for a being a backseater, you know WSO/NAV/CSO/Obsv never get any love and always the short stick argument :D

I know a little about OSI, they're too busy to stake out bath houses to possibly find gay AF dudes. Which leads me to believe that there's more to the story, as is generally the case. One potential issue that seems to have been overlooked (or I missed it due to skimming through the crap) is the potential for blackmail/coercion if he were to be found out by the wrong person - that, IMO, is a huge issue w/DADT: if you're gay make sure no one finds out otherwise you'll suffer the consequences. That is very exploitable.

[KennyB]

Latest clip from CNN:

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/livin...ref=videosearch

Not only will Obama keep him, but '!00%' of the young officer and enlisted corps are supportive of the law being repealed. Now sure how scientific that poll was...

Edited June 30, 2009 by kenblankenship

[Toro]

The DADT argument has been moved to this pre-existing thread. Feel free to continue the talk on Fehrenbach, but if you want to generally discuss the policy, take it over there.

[M2]

According to CNN, Fehrenbach's "board" met yesterday to determine his fate. Any word on the results?

[Steve Davies]

Would be nice if the author could spell "you're", but beyond that this tallies with some of what I was told OTR when this shit storm started. (Source)

Air Force Hero Forced to Choose: Admit Your Gay or Accept Rape Charge

(Family Photo)

Photo: Lt. Col. Victor Fehrenbach, an 18-year Air Force veteran, in 2000.

BOISE, Idaho (AP) On April 3, 2003, Air Force Lt. Col.Victor Fehrenbach flew in an F-15E toward an Iraqi ambush site about amile from U.S. Army troops advancing on Baghdad airport.

Fehrenbach faced anti-aircraft fire, surface-to-air missiles and amechanical problem on his wingman's plane. Still, the weapons systemsofficer aboard the plane helped destroy the enemy position and helpedclear the way for the Army to take the airport that night. For hisheroism, the Notre Dame grad won an Air Medal with a valor device, oneof his nine Air Medals.

Five years later, Fehrenbach confronted a crisis in a verydifferent setting. A Boise police detective sat across a conferencetable questioning him about an alleged crime.

Fehrenbach, stationed at Mountain Home Air Force Base, was in aCatch-22. To clear himself of the claim he'd raped a man, Fehrenbachcould tell police his side of the story. But admitting he'd hadconsensual sex could get him kicked out of the Air Force he loved after18 years.

Fehrenbach asked Detective Mark Vucinich whether his employer had a right to see his statement. Yes, replied Vucinich.

Fehrenbach then told the detective he had sex with Cameron Shaneron May 12, 2008. He'd met Shaner, 30, on a gay Web site and invited himto his southeast Boise home.

Fehrenbach was soon cleared by police and the Ada Countyprosecutor's office. The Air Force Office of Special Investigationssubsequently found no violation of the Uniform Code of MilitaryJustice. AFOSI concluded that Fehrenbach and Shaner had consensual sex,and that Shaner was an "unreliable source of information."

(AP Photo)

Photo:Lt. Col. Victor Fehrenbach, a pilot with the U.S. Air Force 389thFighter Squadron, pauses as he answers a question during an interview.

But the Air Force wasn't done: Fehrenbach's admission he'd had gay sex was a violation of the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" law.

"Because of the criminal allegation, Victor confirmed the fact hewas gay," said Emily Hecht, a lawyer for the Servicemembers LegalDefense Fund. "That's all the Air Force needed. Had his accuser been awoman, he'd have gone back to work with no further issue."

Fehrenbach, 40, was notified last year that he would be discharged,costing him a $46,000 annual pension and the dignity of retiring on hisown terms, as his Air Force parents both had. If discharged early,he'll get an $80,000 lump sum.

At first, he planned to go quietly with an honorable discharge.Shaner, angry that there would be no prosecution, wouldn't go away andwas pressing the Air Force for a dishonorable discharge.

But the prospect of President Barack Obama fulfilling a campaignpromise to repeal "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," prompted Fehrenbach tofight. In April, a board of five officers recommended an honorabledischarge. Fehrenbach's goal was to continue to serve. With two moreyears, he'd reach 20 years and qualify for full retirement.

In mid-May, Fehrenbach finally revealed to his family that he wasgay. A few days later, on May 19, he appeared on "The Rachel MaddowShow" on MSNBC. Since that night, Fehrenbach has become a symbol ofinjustice for those who condemn the military's expulsion of gayservicemen and women.

[FlyingBull]

Wow. So I guess the rumor about an angry ex was more or less correct.

[Guest Alarm Red]

Since this guy isn't a pilot, can we get the title of the thread corrected?

[Steve Davies]

Congrats to Alarm Red for making 69 posts.

Now, more from the source (continues on where my previous post left off).

Fehrenbach's discharge is pending. Some 13,000 service members havebeen pushed out under "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," and being outed by anunreliable source with an ax to grind has not been a mitigating factor.

Secretary of Defense Robert Gates is voicing misgivings aboutdischarging personnel identified by third parties with questionablemotives. Gates has ordered Pentagon lawyers to review ways to apply the1993 law in "a more humane way."

Fehrenbach's case also caught Obama's eye. On June 29, Fehrenbachattended a White House ceremony for the 40th anniversary of theStonewall Riots, which marked the beginning of the gay rights movement.

Fehrenbach asked Obama for his help and urged him to repeal "Don'tAsk, Don't Tell." Fehrenbach told Maddow that night that Obama said:"We're gonna get this done."

The following day, Gates reiterated the administration's view that Congress should repeal "Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

(AP Photo/Charles Dharapak)

Photo:Defense Secretary Robert Gates and President Obama at a ceremonymarking the eighth anniversary of 9/11 on Sept. 11, 2009.

And he went a step further, suggesting an interim move that couldallow people like Fehrenbach to stay in the service: "Do we need to bedriven ... to take action on somebody if we get that information fromsomebody who may have vengeance in mind or blackmail or somebody whohas been jilted?"

Gates won't comment on specific cases, including whether he had Fehrenbach in mind, spokeswoman Cynthia Smith said.

Air Force Secretary Michael Donley will make the final call onFehrenbach's future. Spokeswoman Capt. Christina Hoggatt would notcomment on whether Donley was weighing issues raised by Gates.

The manner of Fehrenbach's being forced to admit he is gay exemplifies Gates' interest in a nuanced application of the law.

Shaner, the man who put Fehrenbach on the brink, was a Boise StateUniversity criminal justice student when he accused Fehrenbach ofassaulting him. Shaner served 3½ years in the Army in the 1990s,including time in Bosnia, and was honorably discharged as a privatefirst class.

According to the Veterans Administration, Shaner has a 100 percentservice-connected disability. Shaner told the Idaho Statesman hesuffers from post-traumatic stress disorder and skeletal injuries. Helives in Arizona.

In text messages the night they met, Shaner expressed sexualinterest in Fehrenbach, admiring photos of Fehrenbach's naked body andcalling him "stud." Arriving at Fehrenbach's home, Shaner disrobed andjoined him in the hot tub. Observed Boise police detective Vucinich inhis report: "It should be noted that (Shaner) could not give me ananswer as to why he, himself, had gotten naked."

"Boise police did not find evidence of rape, said spokeswoman LynnHightower. Chief Deputy Prosecuting Attorney Roger Bourne said thecounty decided against prosecution.

The Air Force says its investigation cleared Fehrenbach and discredited Shaner.

Five days before his encounter with Fehrenbach, Shaner contactedthe Air Force Office of Special Investigations at Mountain Home. He wasaccompanied by an acquaintance who Shaner said had told him gay menwere inviting military men to "HIV parties" in an attempt to infectthem with the virus, according to the Air Force.

Shaner said he began to investigate the claims, visiting gay barsin Boise at the direction of AFOSI Special Agent Karolyn DeRosier.Shaner said he was sworn in as a confidential informant by DeRosier.

But Linda Card, AFOSI's chief of public affairs, said DeRosier hadShaner swear to the truthfulness of his statement, a standard practice.

"After meeting with Mr. Shaner, AFOSI determined not to use him asa confidential informant," Card wrote in an e-mail. "Special AgentDeRosier NEVER directed or requested him to carry out any actions as asource or informant, nor did any other AFOSI agent."

Summarizing the AFOSI investigative report, Card said: "Mr. Shaneris considered to be an unreliable source of information by AFOSI."

The HIV party case was closed as unsubstantiated.

Shaner called Boise police to report a sexual assault shortlybefore 3 a.m. May 12, 2008. He said he was an AFOSI informant and wentto Fehrenbach's home at DeRosier's request.

Shaner now admits DeRosier did not ask him to see Fehrenbach.Instead, Shaner said he met Fehrenbach via a paid Web site to whichboth subscribed. Shaner told the Statesman he sought out Fehrenbachthinking he might have information about the investigation.

Fehrenbach is still on duty at Mountain Home as assistant directorof operations for the 366th Operations Support Squadron, a jobtypically held by an officer of his rank. He no longer is on activeflight status. A spokesman at Mountain Home referred questions aboutthe status change to the Air Combat Command, which said Fehrenbach wasremoved because of his pending honorable discharge under the "Don'tAsk, Don't Tell" law.

The Servicemembers Legal Defense Network advised Fehrenbach not tocomment for this story because the Statesman was the first to reportthe underlying events that prompted his pending discharge. Until now,Fehrenbach has simply said he was outed by a "civilian acquaintance."

Kevin Nix, a spokesman for the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, has been helping Fehrenbach.

"Victor is a great human face that shows the problem that is 'Don'tAsk, Don't Tell,"' Nix told Fehrenbach's hometown paper, the Dayton(Ohio) Daily News. "This is happening every day."

With his hero's resume, body-builder's physique, dark eyes setdeeply in a shaved head and modest eloquence, Fehrenbach became asympathetic figure.

He's appeared on Maddow's MSNBC show three times and on CNN andPBS. He's been interviewed by The Associated Press, New York Times andWashington Post. A Fehrenbach page on Facebook has 3,500 fans.

He told Maddow how crushing it was to see his career ending just weeks before he was preparing to redeploy.

"I was faced with the end of my life as I knew it," he said on May19. "... The more I thought about it, about how wrong this policy is, Ithought that I had to fight. And perhaps, with my unique perspective, Icould speak out and help other people in the meantime."

Stories on Fehrenbach have focused on a stellar career: the nineAir Medals; five Commendation Medals; 2,180 hours of flight time,including patrolling Washington, D.C., after 9/11; and 400 hours incombat over Iraq, Afghanistan and Kosovo.

"Yeah, but he got those medals before he was gay," observed comedian Stephen Colbert.

Air Force Times editorialized on Fehrenbach's discharge: "That may be the law. But it's not justice."

The case even made "News of the Weird," which noted the wastedinvestment in training Fehrenbach, estimated by the weapons systemsofficer at $25 million.

"Don't Ask, Don't Tell" says discharging personnel known to be gayis necessary to maintain "high morale, good order and discipline, andunit cohesion." Fehrenbach says that's a non-issue.

"I have been going to work every day and doing my duty withabsolutely no impact on morale, discipline and good order," he said inhis first TV appearance. Among about 4,000 people assigned to MountainHome, Fehrenbach said, "about 10 people on the entire base even knewabout my case up until this very moment."

Capt. Hoggatt said she could not estimate when a final decisionwill be made. Fehrenbach has said he expects to be discharged this fallbefore reform takes place. He hopes to rejoin the service if the law isrepealed.

He also seeks to raise hope among those who want gays to be free toserve openly, as they do in 26 countries, including Britain, France,Australia and Israel.

"You coming out has galvanized a lot of people, and it brought alot of people out of the woodwork," Maddow told Fehrenbach on June 23.

"Absolutely," he replied. "I have literally gotten thousands andthousands of e-mails, letters, phone calls from people I have servedwith ... I can't even count the number who have said, literally, 'Dude,I'll go to war with you tomorrow."'

[pawnman]

I know a little about OSI, they're too busy to stake out bath houses to possibly find gay AF dudes. Which leads me to believe that there's more to the story, as is generally the case. One potential issue that seems to have been overlooked (or I missed it due to skimming through the crap) is the potential for blackmail/coercion if he were to be found out by the wrong person - that, IMO, is a huge issue w/DADT: if you're gay make sure no one finds out otherwise you'll suffer the consequences. That is very exploitable.

I submit that we've made it more exploitable because of the rules being enforced the way they are.

To keep it on topic, there's a guy in our squadron who went through PCola with ol' Vic as an instructor. Guy idolized him, they were neighbors, he went on several cross-countries with him (so the story goes)...and when he gets named in the squadron, low and behold, they have the same callsign. This all happened years ago...but it provided no shortage of entertainment after this story hit the headlines.

[M2]

An update...

Aviator Reaches Deal to Halt Discharge

The Air Force on Monday agreed to at least temporarily delay any discharge of a gay Mountain Home Air Force Base officer facing dismissal under "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" until an Idaho federal judge can hear his arguments.

Lt. Col. Victor Fehrenbach on Monday withdrew his request for a temporary restraining order as a part of a deal with the Air Force.

The parties agreed to ask U.S. District Judge Edward Lodge to hear the case after the Air Force decides whether to keep Fehrenbach on duty or discharge him.

[DFRESH]

Just throwing this out there... yesterday at work my coworker had to call our campus at Mt Home... The guy from the campus mentioned that there is a rainbow sticker on the case of the computer... I thought of this thread and nearly shot coffee out my nose. Is there something in the water up there?

[Guest]

Is there something in the water up there?

[M2]

Well, good news, Fehrenbach told The AP he is is being allowed to retire on 1 Oct...

Aviator Fighting DADT Discharge to Retire

Apparently he was notified in January that his request to retire with his rank and benefits intact was granted.

The dude had nine Air Medals, and never "told" so there should have never been a case against him under DADT.

I'm glad it all worked out for him!

Cheers! M2