Leadership at the 'Deid

[Guest]

I have no direct knowledge on the subject, however, I would caution you regarding this. You obviously aren't calling out any names, but here's a news article regarding said unit: http://www.bagram.afcent.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123208292

Point noted. Let's just consider a generic OG/CC for discussion purposes.

1. He has only been a group commander for a couple of months and while his actions might not seem to be in much context (and the first story above leaves me just aghast), take into account he may be trying to present a "tough guy image" and that he is not to be trifled with. General Patton did the same thing and he produced results "Hell, I don't want them to like me. I want them to fight!"

Hang on a fucking minute.

First, he's not Patton nor is he facing what Patton was facing. Congratulations. You just compared ice cream to Tuesday.

If he's a true leader he will not have to try to "present a 'tough guy image'." He just needs to lead from the front and measure what matters and recognize and reward the people who are getting the mission done, at all levels.

For example...

I doubt Robin Olds ever felt he needed to run around yelling "chins are in!" everytime he saw an untucked shirt in the shitter in order to present a tough guy image.

Leading from the front and killing the enemy is a pretty effective technique, unless you suck.

2. He's the group commander and, while he may be cutting down on fun and adversely affecting morale, he may be under orders to crack down on infractions.

C'mon, that's BS and you know it. You don't have to shit all over people.

He isn't paid to be liked, but to be a commander. Anything he does affecting the mission is brought down on him and he has to answer as to why a mission didn't go. That's his prerogative.

Weak argument. You're saying it is his perogative to shit on people for queep because he has to cover his ass. Are you actually in any way relating shitting on people for queep with "anwering as to why a mission didn't go?" Please.

3. Multiple execs isn't unusual even at large squadrons. I was an OG exec and we had 4 with two deputy commanders.

Moot point.

You don't need all those people to get the job done downrange. Period fucking dot.

4. I find it amazing that anyone is being criticized for how they are dressed in the bathroom. When I was at an unnamed military school, that was one place that you could be out of uniform. The only other place was your room. If you want to have a small rebellion on the matter, make sure EVERYONE untucks their shirt when entering the bathroom, but tuck it back in before leaving. Next time you know he's going to be around, have a few guys take a shower fully clothed and walk by him (saluting of course)

5. A few batman reflective belts wouldn't hurt.

That's one way to deal with it, probably be kind of fun.

Unfortunately, the worst part of a scenario like this is people's morale is built around developing creative ways to fuck with the leadership instead of feeling good about being downrange and led by a true warrior, knowing you may never have it this good again.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Rainman A-10

[Beaver]

What do you expect from a guy with sleeve creases in his flightsuit?

[Guest Crew Report]

I bet he won't pass his tail number over the radio either

[StoleIt]

What do you expect from a guy with sleeve creases in his flightsuit?

I just noticed that. UFB.

[08Dawg]

What do you expect from a guy with sleeve creases in his flightsuit?

Going slightly along with this...why the hell do we insist on wearing eight-point covers in desert locations? That's a Navy-Marine thing.

[ram02]

Going slightly along with this...why the hell do we insist on wearing eight-point covers in desert locations? That's a Navy-Marine thing.

Well, there's always the boonie hat, but apparently that piece of headgear isn't "stract" enough if you're an O-5 or above.

[Vertigo]

You're comparing apples to tuesday.

Damn it! If you're gonna steal my material at least get it right. The actual saying is:

Congratulations. You just compared ice cream to Tuesday.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Vertigo

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

Well, there's always the boonie hat, but apparently that piece of headgear isn't "stract" enough if you're an O-5 or above.

another one of my trademarks-- the fedora boonie hat. Still can't believe nobody's said shit about that either. I really need to up my troll game.

And if you want a black reflective belt, they at http://www.belts.breflective.com/retroreflective-belts-colors-2in.php, but don't bitch about the price. It's a small price to pay to troll shoe clerks.

[pawnman]

another one of my trademarks-- the fedora boonie hat. Still can't believe nobody's said shit about that either. I really need to up my troll game.

And if you want a black reflective belt, they at http://www.belts.breflective.com/retroreflective-belts-colors-2in.php, but don't bitch about the price. It's a small price to pay to troll shoe clerks.

Awesome. I'm kind of partial to this one: http://www.news.alain-pelletier.com/?p=163

[BQZip01]

First, he's not Patton nor is he facing what Patton was facing. You're comparing apples to tuesday.

If he's a true leader he will not have to try to "present a 'tough guy image'." He just needs to lead from the front and measure what matters and recognize and reward the people who are getting the mission done, at all levels...I doubt Robin Olds ever felt he needed to run around yelling "chins are in!" everytime he saw an untucked shirt in the shitter in order to present a tough guy image.

Leading from the front and killing the enemy is a pretty effective technique, unless you suck.

Or perhaps you aren't allowed to kill the enemy? No matter how tempting it might be to lace that shoeclerk's room with 30mm tracer rounds...

I agree this isn't Patton and it isn't comparing the exact same thing, but there are parallels (more comparing apple trees to evergreens; they are both leaders in wartime)

You are absolutely correct that he doesn't have to light someone up for such asinine things. But he also has to enforce orders and if shoeclerkish higher ups are demanding this kind of behavior from their subordinate leaders, there is little they can do without losing their jobs (perhaps that sacrifice might need to be made if it is the case).

As for not "presenting an image", I call BS and Patton was the KING of presenting an image. He led from the front, said what he meant, and didn't care who he pissed off, but by the same token, he always presented himself as a professional. He was a prima donna nearly obsessed with showing up other generals with more pomp and circumstance. He always had a grand appearance.

Weak argument. You're saying it is his perogative to shit on people for queep because he has to cover his ass. Are you actually in any way relating shitting on people for queep with "anwering as to why a mission didn't go?" Please.

A commander may make a bad decision (i.e. to ground a jet to address people not tucking their shirts in while sleeping...), but it is still his decision to make even if it is a bad one. Commanders are people too and they make mistakes. Give him a chance to learn and he may turn out just fine.

You don't need all those people to get the job done downrange.

Well, I guess we will agree to disagree and I won't criticize someone for having an extra exec if they feel they need one. Like I said before, I used to work in a Group with four. I deployed to a Wing/pseudo-MAJCOM as the sole exec. I can easily see the workload being shared as a better alternative in some cases.

Before you criticize someone, make sure you walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away...and you have their shoes...

Unfortunately, the worst part of a scenario like this is people's morale is built around developing creative ways to fuck with the leadership instead of feeling good about being downrange and led by a true warrior, knowing you may never have it this good again.

So true. But I submit there is a happy medium. Leaders who will let you push the envelope and mess with leadership to boost morale.

[schokie]

A commander may make a bad decision (i.e. to ground a jet to address people not tucking their shirts in while sleeping...), but it is still his decision to make even if it is a bad one. Commanders are people too and they make mistakes. Give him a chance to learn and he may turn out just fine.

A combat zone is not a leadership laboratory. This isn't ROTC Field Training here. An O-6 is supposed to have this crap figured out by now. Canceling lines which reduces support for the folks on the ground, thereby putting American lives at risk, to deal with queep is a complete foul.

You're correct that commanders make mistakes. That doesn't make it right, nor does it need to be explained away as a 'learning opportunity'. As Rainman says, "This ain't no puss game".

[Guest]

Damn it! If you're gonna steal my material at least get it right.

2

Correction made.

[Guest]

Well, I guess we will agree to disagree and I won't criticize someone for having an extra exec if they feel they need one. Like I said before, I used to work in a Group with four. I deployed to a Wing/pseudo-MAJCOM as the sole exec. I can easily see the workload being shared as a better alternative in some cases.

Before you criticize someone, make sure you walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away...and you have their shoes...

Copy. I've given those very shoes back and they don't look anything like what I was wearing...but I am more than a mile away.

[HerkFE]

And if you want a black reflective belt, they at http://www.belts.breflective.com/retroreflective-belts-colors-2in.php, but don't bitch about the price. It's a small price to pay to troll shoe clerks.

Just ordered mine.

[Guest Crew Report]

A combat zone is not a leadership laboratory. This isn't ROTC Field Training here. An O-6 is supposed to have this crap figured out by now. Canceling lines which reduces support for the folks on the ground, thereby putting American lives at risk, to deal with queep is a complete foul.

You're correct that commanders make mistakes. That doesn't make it right, nor does it need to be explained away as a 'learning opportunity'. As Rainman says, "This ain't no puss game".

He sounds like the "Fun Burglar" who was the OG at Salem back in '05. He would walk around Ops daily at 1700 to remind everyone that the sun was setting and to have your reflective belt on. Same person who would make the OG do "Camp Cleanup" in DCU's instead of flight suits because he didn't want to anger the non-flyers on base.

Thankfully he was shit canned as the Wing King at Pope last year. You're right, this isn't leadership lab. By the time you're and O-6+ you should have your shit in a sock, however with the PME warriors out there a lot of them don't.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Crew Report

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

... however with the PME warriors out there a lot of them don't.

I cut all but the important part of your post. Most ops dudes really don't get a real taste of "you're the man" leadership until they reach the O-5 level, it's just the nature of the beast in the Air Force, double so in the ops world. Sure you might do a gig as a shop chief or flight commander, but in terms of real leadership, opportunities for junior officers are really limited unless you do something off duty. Most of what dudes learn about leadership comes from PME or other "I read it in a book" type learning. Every time you're doing a job for the first time it's going to be on a trial and error basis; but combat leadership is NOT a good place to learn by trial and error.

I'm actually glad I volunteered to work with Civil Air Patrol. I actually learn more about leadership by teaching it to cadets than I ever really learned as a cadet myself back in my CAP cadet days or ROTC days. As a junior captain, my opportunities at work are limited as I described above.

[HerkDerka]

I cut all but the important part out of your post.

I'm actually glad I volunteered to work with Civil Air Patrol. I actually learn more about leadership by teaching it to cadets than I ever really learned as a cadet myself back in my CAP cadet days or ROTC days.

Edited August 12, 2010 by HerkDerka

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

I cut all but the important part out of your post.

ha. ha. ha. i knew the degenerate homosexual thing would come up sooner rather than later.

[Guest Crew Report]

Most ops dudes really don't get a real taste of "you're the man" leadership until they reach the O-5 level, it's just the nature of the beast in the Air Force, double so in the ops world.

Pro tip: Some of us have been flying/in the AF longer than you and understand this.

[HuggyU2]

I'm actually glad I volunteered to work with Civil Air Patrol.

Amen! The first thing you have ever posted that I agree with.

Thanks for volunteering.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Huggyu2

[frog]

Keep the faith! I just got an email with the base policies for my next deployment.

- No relective belts (not optional, they are completely banned)

- No saluting

- Shower shoes to latrines is okay

You guys just need to get a step or two further down range. Drink a beer for me though!

[sky_king]

no no no... the grips ALL wrong

[Guest Sunrunner]

Long time reader but first post and a newly minted actual account, so hello.

Now that that is out of the way, I ran into this thread while looking for some dirt on what kind of place to expect out of AUAB since I have managed to avoid it up until now. Unfortunately, fate caught up to me and I am now going to be doing a YEAR there rocking the glorified conex housing units.

I knew that coming from SOF and having to do the ACC gig was going to result in culture shock, but after reading some of the posts here I am convinced I'm not going to make it the full year without loosing it and kicking some F@c%-tard in the head.

For those that have spent some quality time in the AUAB slice of heaven, any pointers? Black reflective belt ordered, so check item number 1 off the list.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

anyone been in the CC chow hall this morning? All I can say is

It looks like a middle school cafeteria. I sat by the door to try to avoid at least some of the paint fumes and EVERYONE coming in was shocked and said something about how bad it looked (including at least one O-6).

[JeepGuyC17]

... I am now going to be doing a YEAR there rocking the glorified conex housing units.

I'd actually prefer conex housing units to the billeting at the Deid. Although, being there for a year you'll probably get to live in the "Better Person's Complex"