Leadership at the 'Deid

[Hammer]

Were you wearing your reflective belt?

Actually I was! And I think the sidekick was more like this...

[JeepGuyC17]

Happy 100!

[Guest]

Not about leadership, but I need to rant. Just finished a long flight and go to have a smoke in the smoke pit. I walk out of the door, light up and make a bee line for the nearest pit. I get about 50 yards from the pit and some joker comes storming up to me yelling "Excuse me, you need to put that out!" to which I reply "I'm walking to that pit." and point to it...we can all see it. He says "Come on, you've been walking with it since over there, lets be honest with each other" and I get a "YEAH!" from his little sidekick. Rather than press the situation farther I flick off the cherry and walk the next 50 yards and relight as the dynamic duo pass. For one, WE ARE OUTSIDE! Does it really bother you that I am having a relaxing post-flight smoke? Two, when I tell you I am walking to the smoking area, do not question my integrity. Was I technically breaking the rules by lighting up outside of the designated area? Yes. Was it going to kill anyone? no Thanks for letting me vent/

Can't you just keep walking and ignore them? If you act like you can't hear them all they can do is follow you to the smoke pit, right? They're not going to physically restrain you.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

To "celebrate" this thread finally reaching 100 pages (this should be an indication as to how bad it really is), here's an image of the place BEFORE shoeclerkishness overran the gate and took hold...like that ever happened...

Ah, the good old days of Camp Andy, back when the shoe clerks were marginalized because some airplanes were taking off and not returning, and people actually acted like we were at war somewhere. I can remember the 3 beer limit was only limited by the number of times they could cross your ration card without wearing through the paper.

[amcflyboy]

Can't you just keep walking and ignore them? If you act like you can't hear them all they can do is follow you to the smoke pit, right? They're not going to physically restrain you.

I was thinking the same thing!

[BQZip01]

Ah, the good old days of Camp Andy, back when the shoe clerks were marginalized because some airplanes were taking off and not returning, and people actually acted like we were at war somewhere. I can remember the 3 beer limit was only limited by the number of times they could cross your ration card without wearing through the paper.

2 and congrats on 100 pages!

[Stiffler]

Can't you just keep walking and ignore them? If you act like you can't hear them all they can do is follow you to the smoke pit, right? They're not going to physically restrain you.

I agree, it amazes me how people talk tough on this site, but then when called out by a shoe, they do exactly what the shoe asks and then bitch about it on the board. Stand up man, have some damn respect!

And by the way before anyone asks, I do stand up and it has never been escalated. They ALWAYS back down.

[Champ Kind]

They ALWAYS back down.

This.

[pawnman]

I agree, it amazes me how people talk tough on this site, but then when called out by a shoe, they do exactly what the shoe asks and then bitch about it on the board. Stand up man, have some damn respect!

And by the way before anyone asks, I do stand up and it has never been escalated. They ALWAYS back down.

I can tell you I know someone personally who experienced the opposite. Not only did they NOT back down, they got their squadron commander to threaten charges for insubordination. Cost the guy his job back home, and he was essentially blacklisted from teh Deid while the current WG/CC is still there.

[Chuck17]

Dude, youre saying an ENLISTED member got the SQ/CC involved and this dude got in trouble? Or are we talking officers? Not that it matters, just curious.

Always know which battles to fight. It is possible to win by losing - waiting for justice can keep you waiting for a long time... See Rule #3.

Chuck

[BQZip01]

I can tell you I know someone personally who experienced the opposite. Not only did they NOT back down, they got their squadron commander to threaten charges for insubordination. Cost the guy his job back home, and he was essentially blacklisted from teh Deid while the current WG/CC is still there.

It all depends on how you respond. In the cigarette incident mentioned above, IMHO, the best thing would have been to walk off to the side (out of the way of foot traffic) with the cigarette still lit and talk to the little piss ant in a low voice (and if he interrupts tell him to shut up and just listen).

"Listen. I'm walking to the smoke pit right now. My butts aren't going anywhere other than in a proper disposal. The ash is going to fly where ever the wind takes it. The smoke will do the same. There is no risk of fire or explosion with me lighting up a few paces away..."

At this point calmly extinguish the cigarette with no fanfare or "cool" moves.

"...you are indeed correct that I'm not yet in the pit and I will extinguish this as a sign of respect for the base rules..." (never say you have respect for a shoeclerk such as this. it only emboldens them) "...but I challenge you to find a better use for your time than wasting the time/efforts of others. Try using it to improve your squadron's morale instead of tearing it down millimeter by millimeter."

Then walk away to the smoke pit. They will usually stand there dumbstruck. Those that are out there because they were ordered to be there and enforce a rule without mercy will sometimes thank you (can't fault those guys; they've been ordered to act like a shoeclerk). Be polite and they will have absolutely NOTHING to give to a commander for disciplinary means...

...then make sure you stop and light up about 6 paces outside the smoke pit just to emphasize your point and walk into the pit.

[Hammer]

It all depends on how you respond. In the cigarette incident mentioned above, IMHO, the best thing would have been to walk off to the side (out of the way of foot traffic) with the cigarette still lit and talk to the little piss ant in a low voice (and if he interrupts tell him to shut up and just listen).

"Listen. I'm walking to the smoke pit right now. My butts aren't going anywhere other than in a proper disposal. The ash is going to fly where ever the wind takes it. The smoke will do the same. There is no risk of fire or explosion with me lighting up a few paces away..."

At this point calmly extinguish the cigarette with no fanfare or "cool" moves.

"...you are indeed correct that I'm not yet in the pit and I will extinguish this as a sign of respect for the base rules..." (never say you have respect for a shoeclerk such as this. it only emboldens them) "...but I challenge you to find a better use for your time than wasting the time/efforts of others. Try using it to improve your squadron's morale instead of tearing it down millimeter by millimeter."

Then walk away to the smoke pit. They will usually stand there dumbstruck. Those that are out there because they were ordered to be there and enforce a rule without mercy will sometimes thank you (can't fault those guys; they've been ordered to act like a shoeclerk). Be polite and they will have absolutely NOTHING to give to a commander for disciplinary means...

...then make sure you stop and light up about 6 paces outside the smoke pit just to emphasize your point and walk into the pit.

Good point, and well put. I guess I'm just not that quick on my toes.

Edited May 29, 2010 by snizz

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

Dude, youre saying an ENLISTED member got the SQ/CC involved and this dude got in trouble? Or are we talking officers? Not that it matters, just curious.

Always know which battles to fight. It is possible to win by losing - waiting for justice can keep you waiting for a long time... See Rule #3.

Chuck

If it's the incident I'm thinking of, an enlisted dude tried to shoe an O-4, O-4 told him more or less to FOAD and the E got SQ leadership involved.

[Butters]

I can tell you I know someone personally who experienced the opposite. Not only did they NOT back down, they got their squadron commander to threaten charges for insubordination. Cost the guy his job back home, and he was essentially blacklisted from teh Deid while the current WG/CC is still there.

Wait so you are saying he was blacklisted from the Deid?? How is that a bad thing? Also, I doubt he wanted that job back home anyway.

[Guest]

If it's the incident I'm thinking of, an enlisted dude tried to shoe an O-4, O-4 told him more or less to FOAD and the E got SQ leadership involved.

I did not say engage them.

I said keep walking and ignore them.

And by ignore I mean completely ignore them...you know, like you're still winding down from your mission, going over it in your cranium and not yet completely aware of what the fuck is going on back in REMF land. Which is exactly what you are doing.

You have to keep ignoring them even after they follow you into the pit yipping at your heels in a dog whistle shrill voice.

Your odds are not good if you engage them. There are fewer Robin Olds type leaders than the other kind and you will lose because they are pussies.

I am not advocating some sort of "whatever, whatever I do what I want!" 15 year old Jerry Springer snot bitching at her mother on national TV. I'm talking about stepping off the jet after a combat sortie and lighting a smoke a 30 yards outside the smoke pit and ignoring a REMF that could use a little perspective and judgement but will never actually "get it."

I think I've told this story before but I'm going to tell it again because it is my all time favorite "war story."

When we opened Bagram the only things people got bitched at for were light leaks because of the snipers and staying on the marked paths because of the mines. Those were worthy, life saving things for people to worry about and make on the spot corrections for.

Eventually it was safe enough for the XVIII Airborne Corps 3 star to have his HQ on the base. They preceeded his arrival with the XVIII Airborne Corps CSM. The CSM had never seen a GP medium with a dirt floor and a heater leaking JP-8 on the floor. He had never seen a burning sawed off 55 gal drum with a JP-8/shit cocktail. He had never seen people washing their clothes in a 5 gal bucket. He had never seen the FST set up in the tower with blood everywhere.

All he saw was the Taj Mahal they were building for his boss, which included running water.

You might say his perspective was a little different than the perspective of many of the folks that had been there since before he had even heard the name Bagram.

Worst of all, he absolutely hated the USAF. After about two weeks of his bullshit I called Buzz and told him I needed a counterweight. Within a week the new ass kicking former PJ Command Chief hopped off a C-130. He had not been on base more than 15 minutes when he heard that XVIII Airborne Corps CSM douchebag lighting into an AF guy who was walking out to the flightline. He looked at me and said "Excuse me sir, I know we have a lot to talk about but as a matter of protocol I need to introduce myself the the XVIII Airborne Corps CSM. I'll get back with you in a minute. Can you have the Shirt put my gear on my bunk for me?" The Chief then strolled over, stepped between them, said something in a very low tone, walked the CSM 100 meters away from our guy and had a 20 min chat. He walked back in and I asked him "How'd it go Chief?" and he just smiled and said "He won't be coming inside our wire again but we should probably have our men keep an eye out for him if they're outside AF Village (it wasn't called Camp Cunningham yet), at least until I get him trained."

That might have been my favorite day in the Air Force.

[PasserOGas]

When we opened Bagram the only things people got bitched at for were light leaks because of the snipers and staying on the marked paths because of the mines. Those were worthy, life saving things for people to worry about and make on the spot corrections for.

Eventually it was safe enough for the XVIII Airborne Corps 3 star to have his HQ on the base. They preceeded his arrival with the XVIII Airborne Corps CSM. The CSM had never seen a GP medium with a dirt floor and a heater leaking JP-8 on the floor. He had never seen a burning sawed off 55 gal drum with a JP-8/shit cocktail. He had never seen people washing their clothes in a 5 gal bucket. He had never seen the FST set up in the tower with blood everywhere.

Is it sick that I really want to deploy to what you just described? I'm still not sure what I'm going to tell my grandchildren when they ask "How did you spend your time during the war grandpa?"

"Were you a hero?"

"Not really..."

"Did you serve with heroes?"

"Yeah, not really... Let's talk about something else."

Edited May 30, 2010 by PasserOGas

[Karl Hungus]

Is it sick that I really want to deploy to what you just described? I'm still not sure what I'm going to tell my grandchildren when they ask "How did you spend your time during the war grandpa?"

"Were you a hero?"

"Not really..."

"Did you serve with heroes?"

"Yeah, not really... Let's talk about something else."

2. I'd happily trade the wireless internet, the pool, three beer night, off-base trips, etc for an ops-centric deployment without excess manning and a focus on the shit that actually matters. Instead we have deployed CGOCs organizing day-long trips to go bowling, movie night in the pool, and first shirts complaining that aircrew "hide behind crew rest" in order to skip important things like Army Battalion runs.

[PirateAF]

My friends, there is hope. Leaders who understand what is and what is not important DO exist. Although this is unconfirmed, it seems Manas leadership does not put up with the shoe-nazi patrols. Morale at Manas seems higher than at the other SWA locations.

[BFM this]

2. I'd happily trade[...].

I've taken the time to paraphrase this sentiment on every post deployment "Are You Going to Off Yourself? Survey" that I get sent. I know that it isn't going to go anywhere, but like a near-beer, I can pretend for a moment.

Edit: spell check is your friend.

Edited May 30, 2010 by BFM this

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

So there I was at the bra and they had a damned EASTER EGG HUNT, I shit you not.

"Grandpa, what did you do i the war"

"well Billy, I had an easter egg hunt, but they didn't have any with chocolate in them, only jelly beans. War is hell I tell you!"

[zrooster99]

Well, I have returned to the Deid after a 3 year absence. WOW, this place still sucks.

Wait, are you on a 120? Because, if so, I'm apparently a little slow on the uptake...

[Right Seat Driver]

My friends, there is hope. Leaders who understand what is and what is not important DO exist. Although this is unconfirmed, it seems Manas leadership does not put up with the shoe-nazi patrols. Morale at Manas seems higher than at the other SWA locations.

"2"

I did a Manas deployment followed by one at the Deid and it was a night and day difference.

[Karl Hungus]

My friends, there is hope. Leaders who understand what is and what is not important DO exist. Although this is unconfirmed, it seems Manas leadership does not put up with the shoe-nazi patrols. Morale at Manas seems higher than at the other SWA locations.

Manas is no more, at least for now.

[LockheedFix]

My friends, there is hope. Leaders who understand what is and what is not important DO exist. Although this is unconfirmed, it seems Manas leadership does not put up with the shoe-nazi patrols. Morale at Manas seems higher than at the other SWA locations.

I'm not sure if the leadership at Manas is the same as it was last summer, but whoever was the WG/CC out there last summer rocked. After multiple trips there thinking we were being sneaky taking 20x our authorized take out from the chow hall to take back to Kandahar, one of the chow hall airmen advised me that the WG/CC had personally told them to allow all the guys from Kandahar to take all they wanted because he knew our food situation was terrible and Manas had way better stuff than what we had. It's little stuff like that that most of the leadership doesn't get that makes a huge difference in morale for the guys out there getting the job done.

[Vetter]

Well, at Kandahar...if you get caught without your reflective belt, they give a reflective belt and take your ID. Then, you must bring your boss in to retrieve your ID card and turn in the belt they loaned you. Just gonna say, no one is taking my ID card from me unless I am in cuffs and they take it out of my pocket, or Haji demands it when I land under parachute in his mud hut.

Just sayin'...