Gun Talk

[Guest Snow]

Thanks for the replies gents and the sound recommendations. I will just head out and grope and fondle both of them and see which one myself and the wife feels more comfortable with.

Saw this on the news and it made my sphincter flinch!

Between USC 18 Sec 930 and the policies of risk-adverse, promotion-focused commanders, it is pretty much impossible to find a fair firearm policy at an Air Force Base these days. All this is doing is preventing law-abiding servicemembers from keeping weapons in their cars in states were it is allowed (such as Texas, where a CHL isn't even require to do so).

The joke is, nutbags such as Hasan are just going to ignore these "restrictions" before committing their crimes...

You have got to love the legislative reaction to events like this. A criminal with no regard for laws went into a area where people are not allowed to carry loaded weapons and shot it up. The fix to this is to pass more laws restricting the rights of those who weren't breaking any laws. If they would only consider the inverse, what if every person in that office was armed. How many would have died before Maj Hassaan caught 2 to the chest and 1 to the head?

But it is far too simple to entrust peoples safety to themselves and trust that we are capable of our instinctual self preservation. No lets pass laws and restrict rights in the name of safety and security. Well done secretary gates and our other elected official well done.... / rant

Edited April 17, 2010 by Snow

[M2]

OK, I may be the victim of a marketing hook; but I picked up a box of this for the Savage my son and I shot...

Hopefully it will perform better than the Winchester .22 we previously tried!

Standby for the next range report...

Cheers! M2

[Spoo]

On the topic of good ranges, thought I'd mention that I shot at the NRA Headquarters Range last Friday. No big deal. Needless to say, it's an excellent place to shoot. Slightly cheaper than the other limited options in the area. Clean, top of the line equipment. Any ammo type you can think of. Big lounge and cleaning area. My favorite part is that the 7-8 people working the range were actually friendly, very nice people. I say this because northern VA seems to have an overabundance of asshole, look-down-there-nose-at-you proprietors (Yeah, you know the type). One other plus - the National Firearms Museum is on site.

BTW, the Nation's Gunshow is this weekend. Can you say new 1911?!?

[BigFreddie]

On the topic of good ranges, thought I'd mention that I shot at the NRA Headquarters Range last Friday. No big deal. Needless to say, it's an excellent place to shoot. Slightly cheaper than the other limited options in the area. Clean, top of the line equipment. Any ammo type you can think of. Big lounge and cleaning area. My favorite part is that the 7-8 people working the range were actually friendly, very nice people. I say this because northern VA seems to have an overabundance of asshole, look-down-there-nose-at-you proprietors (Yeah, you know the type). One other plus - the National Firearms Museum is on site.

BTW, the Nation's Gunshow is this weekend. Can you say new 1911?!?

Spill the details on the gunshow! That might be worth the drive from Dover...

That semi-auto .22LR ammo looks interesting - I'd love the hear how it does.

BF

[waltopfor]

Ive been thinking for a while about getting a good .22 revolver, mainly for cheap shooting but also something to take out while camping. Anyone have any experience with the smith 317 the 3" model. Would be open to a semi also if it could go through cheaper ammo and not need something like CCI's to run well.

[Vandal]

Fucking hell, you weren't even born until 1985?!? Thanks for making me feel even older than usual...

Cheers! M2

Well, to make up for it I'll buy ya a beer when I am in San Antonio next, hopefully June.

[Timbonez]

Look at S&W Model 17s or 18s, they're more expensive than the 317 but look cooler (read: classic) IMO. For semi-auto .22s look at Browning Buckmarks, Beretta Neos, Ruger Mark IIIs, or Ruger 22/45s.

[HU&W]

Ive been thinking for a while about getting a good .22 revolver, mainly for cheap shooting but also something to take out while camping. Anyone have any experience with the smith 317 the 3" model. Would be open to a semi also if it could go through cheaper ammo and not need something like CCI's to run well.

For semi-auto, you can't beat the Buckmark. I can put any sort of cheap ammo through mine with excellent accuracy. If you really want a revolver, the rugers are very nice. I've had my eye on the bearcat for awhile, but I don't need another .22 right now.

Edited April 20, 2010 by HU&W

[Spoo]

For semi-auto, you can't beat the Buckmark. I can put any sort of cheap ammo through mine with excellent accuracy.

BIG "2" on that one. I put a couple hundred rounds through mine the other day with no hiccups. Thing drives nails.

[Spoo]

Spill the details on the gunshow! That might be worth the drive from Dover...

Linky

Probably take you about 2.69 hours to get there from Dover. The NRA museum is about 10 min away from the convention center.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Spoo

[HU&W]

BIG "2" on that one. I put a couple hundred rounds through mine the other day with no hiccups. Thing drives nails.

I've heard the expression before, but the wheels are turning and I wonder if it really would. Next time I'm at the range, I'll have to bring a 2x4 with a few partly driven 8d nails to see if I can really drive them in at 25 yds or so.

[Smokin]

Has anyone used the Trijicon RMR sight? I'm looking at getting it (or something like it if there's a better or cheaper option) for my M4 style rifle and was just curious if anyone had any experience with it compared to the traditional Aimpoint style red dot.

[Timbonez]

Has anyone used the Trijicon RMR sight? I'm looking at getting it (or something like it if there's a better or cheaper option) for my M4 style rifle and was just curious if anyone had any experience with it compared to the traditional Aimpoint style red dot.

Smokin, I'd recommend getting a red dot designed as a stand alone optic. That RMR is really for people who are running a magnified optic and need to switch to something for close quarters.

If you're looking for an unmagnified optic, go with any of the Aimpoint Comp M series optics. The L versions of the ML2 and ML3 don't come with the NV settings, which will reduce the cost. The Aimpoint Micro T-1 and M4/M4s are both good options too, but will be slightly more expensive. EoTech also makes good red dots, but their battery life is nothing compared to the Aimpoints.

Unrelated, it looks like SA is making the XDm in .45 ACP now. I couldn't find any information on it, but their main page shows an advertisement... Linky.

[tac airlifter]

Has anyone used the Trijicon RMR sight? I'm looking at getting it (or something like it if there's a better or cheaper option) for my M4 style rifle and was just curious if anyone had any experience with it compared to the traditional Aimpoint style red dot.

I haven't used that particular sight but I've used the reflex and I'm currently running the trijicon tripower on my LMT piston MRP. It's a good sight and trijicon makes a good product, but were I to do it over again I'd spend the extra couple hundred for a good aimpoint (have one on another gun, love it). These style sights (fiberoptic lit) are great in theory but have a few problems in execution. The reticle is really bright when outside, even under cover; however, if you are looking at something really bright and shooting from cover (think every covered range you've ever used) the washout starts to be a problem. The tripower is great at night though, because you can turn it on and it will be as bright as any aimpoint. The reflex (and this is similar) is pretty useless at night. These sights are designed as a supplement to iron sights, not a replacement the way Aimpoint/EOtech are.

Bottom line, I'd pass on this product. For a little more you'll get an aimpoint or similar lit optic and be happier (I also have both an aimpoint and EOtech). Battery life is very long for quality optics and washout won't be an issue. You won't have to worry about how bright the reticle will be on various objects.

FWIW, I'd also pass on the dr optic/ACOG combo above. I'd love the ACOG if I were shot down in OEF because engaging targets at 300m would be a realistic possibility, in fact that's what is on my issue M4 (minus dr. optic). But for plinking or home defense or competition in the states I don't really use magnification. Just my preference, but it's a very expensive set up. Still cool though, just not worth the price to me personally.

[Smokin]

Good advice, thanks. I've been looking at the Aimpoint also, but was just curious if anyone had used the RMR as a standalone sight. Most places I've seen it for sale has been about the same price as the Comp ML2, but sounds like the downsides of the RMR outweigh the battery-free upside.

[Nineline]

Regarding AR-15s, are there any specific brands to stay away from? Looking around Bud's, they have a few ARs that seem really cheap, such as a Doublestar for $659, an Olympic Arms for $628, and a DPMS for $728. For those in the know, what are your feelings about any of these three? Or should I just suck it up and buy a Colt?

-9-

[Timbonez]

Those three companies you mentioned are on the lower end of the AR-15 spectrum. That doesn't mean you necessarily have to buy a Colt either. There are plenty of great AR-15 manufacturers out there: Colt, LMT, Noveske, BCM, Spike's, KAC, LWRC, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few. Middle of the road manufacturers like Rock River Arms, Bushmaster, Smith & Wesson, and Stag Arms also put out a good product. If you want an inexpensive carbine, Spike's Tactical puts out the product to beat in terms of quality and "mil-spec" components vs. price. Their ST-15 M4 Carbine runs for $950.00 and uses a cold hammer forged barrel. Their ST-15 M4 LE Carbine is the same exact weapon but without the CHF barrel, which drops the price to $800. Both rifles, are leaps and bounds better than the ones you mentioned, plus Spike's CS is some of the best in the industry.

Ultimately it boils down to what you're going to use the rifle for. If it is just going to be a plinker, then Doublestar, DPMS, and Oly are just fine. If you are going to trust your life to it, spend the extra money to get something that meets the minimum specs put out by the military. Civilian rifles aren't "mil-spec" because there isn't an inspector checking the lot to make sure the product is right. It's a buzz word that every company uses to sell their product. Those companies, that I mentioned that are great, use parts that were designed to be mil-spec. Many of them surpass the minimum mil-spec requirement. Those that you find on the cheap (Doublestar, et al.) make a cheaper product because they cut corners and use inferior parts. It doesn't necessarily mean they will fail sooner, but are you willing to gamble that?

When it comes to AR-15s, you really do get what you pay for. The CS offered by the top tier and middle of the road manufacturers is usually much better as well. If you run into any problem, they will take care of you, and Spike's is no different. Buy once, cry once.

Edited May 2, 2010 by Timbonez

[HU&W]

Regarding AR-15s, are there any specific brands to stay away from? Looking around Bud's, they have a few ARs that seem really cheap, such as a Doublestar for $659, an Olympic Arms for $628, and a DPMS for $728. For those in the know, what are your feelings about any of these three? Or should I just suck it up and buy a Colt?

-9-

I've only shot the oly. It's a pretty nice rifle as long as you don't mind a "byonggg" sound from the spring every time you pull the trigger.

[JarheadBoom]

I've only shot the oly. It's a pretty nice rifle as long as you don't mind a "byonggg" sound from the spring every time you pull the trigger.

I dunno about AR-15s (because I've never fired one), but every M-16A2 I ever fired in the Corps made the "byonggg" sound from the buffer spring. It's the nature of the beast.

If you listen closely enough to it, you can even tell when the magazine is empty without counting.

edit:

On a related note, I've just about decided on a 16" mid-length BCM upper for one of the AR lowers I bought last month.

Edited May 3, 2010 by JarheadBoom

[Timbonez]

All AR-15s, M-16s, M-4s, etc. make that "byonggg" sound. It's what happens when you have the buffer and the buffer spring so close to your cranium. It's completely normal. It can be mitigated by what type of buffer you use. Spike's ST-T2 buffer is filled with tungsten powder, which helps to limit that sound.

BCM is an excellent choice. I have two BCM uppers, one being their 16" mid-length on a Cav Arms lower.

[Nineline]

If you want an inexpensive carbine, Spike's Tactical puts out the product to beat in terms of quality and "mil-spec" components vs. price. Their ST-15 M4 Carbine runs for $950.00 and uses a cold hammer forged barrel. Their ST-15 M4 LE Carbine is the same exact weapon but without the CHF barrel, which drops the price to $800. Both rifles, are leaps and bounds better than the ones you mentioned, plus Spike's CS is some of the best in the industry.

Is it worthwhile to build my own with piecemeal uppers and lowers or is it more cost effective (keeping quality the same) just to buy the Spike's Tactical you mentioned above? I'm just trying to get a feel of what would get me the most bang for the buck (no pun intended.)

-9-

Edited for clarification

Edited May 3, 2010 by Nineline

[M2]

That’s some damn impressive shootin’!

Cheers! M2

British Sniper Sets New Distance Record

A British Army sniper has set a new sharpshooting distance record by killing two Taliban machinegunners in Afghanistan from more than a mile away.

Craig Harrison, a member of the Household Cavalry, killed the insurgents with consecutive shots — even though they were 3,000ft beyond the most effective range of his rifle. “The first round hit a machinegunner in the stomach and killed him outright,” said Harrison, a Corporal of Horse. “He went straight down and didn’t move. “The second insurgent grabbed the weapon and turned as my second shot hit him in the side. He went down, too. They were both dead.”

The shooting — which took place while Harrison’s colleagues came under attack — was at such extreme range that the 8.59mm bullets took almost three seconds to reach their target after leaving the barrel of the rifle at almost three times the speed of sound.

The distance to Harrison’s two targets was measured by a GPS system at 8,120ft, or 1.54 miles. The previous record for a sniper kill is 7,972ft, set by a Canadian soldier who shot dead an Al-Qaeda gunman in March 2002.

In a remarkable tour of duty, Harrison cheated death a few weeks later when a Taliban bullet pierced his helmet but was deflected away from his skull. He later broke both arms when his army vehicle was hit by a roadside bomb. Harrison was sent back to the UK for treatment, but insisted on returning to the front line after making a full recovery.

“I was lucky that my physical fitness levels were very high before my arms were fractured and after six weeks in plaster I was still in pretty good shape,” he said. “It hasn’t affected my ability as a sniper.”

Harrison, from Gloucestershire, was reunited in Britain with his wife Tanya and daughter Dani, 16, last month. Recalling his shooting prowess in Helmand province, he said: “It was just unlucky for the Taliban that conditions were so good and we could see them so clearly.”

Harrison and his colleagues were in open-topped Jackal 4x4 vehicles providing cover for an Afghan national army patrol south of Musa Qala in November last year. When the Afghan soldiers and Harrison’s troop commander came under enemy fire, the sniper, whose vehicle was further back on a ridge, trained his sights on a Taliban compound in the distance. His L115A3 long-range rifle, the army’s most powerful sniper weapon, is designed to be effective at up to 4,921ft and supposedly capable of only “harassing fire” beyond that range.

“We saw two insurgents running through its courtyard, one in a black dishdasha, one in green,” he said. “They came forward carrying a PKM machinegun, set it up and opened fire on the commander’s wagon.

“Conditions were perfect, no wind, mild weather, clear visibility. I rested the bipod of my weapon on a compound wall and aimed for the gunner firing the machinegun.

“The driver of my Jackal, Trooper Cliff O’Farrell, spotted for me, providing all the information needed for the shot, which was at the extreme range of the weapon.” Harrison killed one machinegunner with his first attempt and felled the other with his next shot. He then let off a final round to knock the enemy weapon out of action. Harrison discovered that he had set a new record only on his return to UK barracks nine days ago. The previous record was held by Corporal Rob Furlong, of Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry, who was using a 12.7mm McMillan TAC-50 rifle.

Tom Irwin, a director of Accuracy International, the British manufacturer of the L115A3 rifle, said: “It is still fairly accurate beyond 4,921ft, but at that distance luck plays as much of a part as anything.”

News of Harrison’s success comes amid concern over a rival insurgent sharpshooter who in a five-month spree has killed up to seven British soldiers, including a sniper, in and around the Taliban stronghold of Sangin.

In a later incident during the tour, Harrison’s patrol vehicle was hit 36 times during a Taliban ambush. “One round hit my helmet behind the right ear and came out of the top,” he said. “Two more rounds went through the strap across my chest. We were all very, very lucky not to get hurt.”

[M2]

I should make this my avatar...

Cheers! M2

[Timbonez]

Is it worthwhile to build my own with piecemeal uppers and lowers or is it more cost effective (keeping quality the same) just to buy the Spike's Tactical you mentioned above? I'm just trying to get a feel of what would get me the most bang for the buck (no pun intended.)

-9-

Edited for clarification

I think it is worth it to build your own AR-15, because it helps give you a better understanding of how all the parts interact with each other. There are several companies to choose from that sell stripped uppers and lowers. Building an upper will require some extra tools, whereas building a lower from scratch can be done "almost all" manually. The cost of building a lower and combining it with a complete upper will be less expensive than buying a complete rifle made with the same parts (with few exceptions).

I've posted this before, but this M4 Chart describes the desired items on an AR-15. You can ignore the actual charts at the bottom of the page. The charts below only show a single model from each manufacturer, and there are several manufacturers missing. Gas piston rifles aren't listed on there either. Street prices are incorrect as well.

What's key is the description of each item listed before the charts. Spike's Tactical rifles follow all of them except HPT on the bolt and barrel. I personally do not own one of their rifles, but I own one of their stripped lowers I have for a build as well as one of their ST-T2 buffers. There are many that frequent forums dedicated to the AR-15 that hold Spike's in high regard, and it's because they truly do put out a quality product and will stand by it. I hope that helps.

Unrelated to AR-15s, I ended up buying the wife a NIB SIG P225. It's a single stack 9mm.

All it needs is a pair of pink grips, says her. Grips are kind of hard to find for this model, so she may have to settle for red Hogue aluminum grips.

[brickhistory]

And now for something completely different in a concealed weapon. For me anyway.

Charter Arms Bulldog Pug, .44 special.

Decent price, impulse buy.