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I bought MiG Pilot that night.

As the fight went on there was a lot of data that showed MANY of the fighters were coming from foreign lands. The primary motivation is as you have noted, the Americans occupying. Most of my deployments were early on and the ROE, especially in the beginning, was very permissive as compared to later in the war. My first two deployments we were often cleared into a kill container and given free reign to shoot ANY vehicles. I can't tell you how many Toyotas we zapped, once we started shooting dudes with guns would pour out like a clown car. Interestingly, at least 50% of what I shot in that time period I found with my NVGs. Sensors are great but they are a soda straw. Using my NVGs I was able to scan large areas and would usually find a target within a few minutes. There were nights I went Winchester with a full combat load two hours into the Vul, landed at Bagram or Jalalabad, took another combat load and did it again. Gun over-heating limitations were a real thing. On my last two deployments I do recall the tight ROE, that being said, I never had a deployment where I did not shoot. Impossible to know it would have changed the national debt. Remember we can't view the conflict with only a 2024 optic...In the days after 9/11 we were sure there would be more attacks unless we acted and we would be a vastly different country had we just taken that hit on the chin and turned away. Beers, whiskey, coffee at my casa anytime for anyone that needs it.

I've gone back and forth in my mind a thousand times, nine deployments was it a waste? Our yardstick of success tends to be the end state which is valid but doesn't tell the whole story. While it sucks the Taliban are running Afghanistan today I prefer to think about it in different terms like a relative peace at home for 20 years. Afghanistan was a flame the drew a lot of bad moths and we killed them all over there instead of here. Not necessarily the perfect metric of winning and losing but if you step back there is value to what you did, it was not a waste. I cringe when I see the Vietnam comparisons. That was a fumbling bumbling proxy war against Russia, we wasted 58,220 American lives trying to keep South Vietnam "free." Our political and military leaders were stooges who tied our hands behind our back when it came to fighting. While far from perfect, the military was allowed to truly fight in Afghanistan and we created a killing machine that eliminated a lot of horrible humans. The effectiveness of the War on Terror will be debated for many years to come. Wars always get front-page press because of the drama. A few stats for perspective: From 2019 to 2022 107,941 Americans died from drug overdoses. From 2011 to 2021 110,000 Americans died due to drunk driving. 9/11 alone we lost 2,977 Americans. In 20+ years of fighting in Afghanistan we lost 2459 American service men and women.

All valid points. But Occam's razor suggests the biggest element that led to us being in country for 20 years, accomplishing what should have taken months at best. At the end of the day, Smedley Butler would have called it a Racket, plain and simple. Trillions of dollars was spent. And trillions of dollars was made... And it continues...while I watch closely the hotspots smoldering around the world today through a lens of at least entry level geopolitical education, I cast a jaundiced eye toward the tendency to pour cash into the hole vs defined outcomes.

TBM 850

cheers to that and you're right about heloDude...anyone that flies helicopters has to be a little fucked up in the head!

Her historical movement through the political ranks is not measured in capability and job success, but rather gallons ingested. You’re welcome for that visual.

I'm on the same boat regarding that point. I never had a problem negotiating that conclusion either, but I have nothing but empathy for those who struggle with what essentially is a public loss of their religion. I lost my OTS class leader to green-on-blue over there. Complete waste of potential; a solid human being and family man at the hands of a distrungled and corrupt local. A true believer my friend was, and a bona fide hero in my eyes. Such Heroism wasted on an unreedemable place, and unreedemable people. I got too many stories of personal corruption and cowardice from that so called allied force, even stateside. Fuck. That. Place. In the macro, I never bought into any of that shit. Our self-defense Air Power objectives in that shithole were largely completed by 2003 from where I saw it as a civilian college student. That was a full 3 years before I would even see the inside of a military building. So 9/11 was never a draw for me. Lord knows I disagreed with the second invasion of Iraq from the jump, as I also disagreed with the criminal decision to disband the Iraqi Army (may Paul bremer and his blood-soaked hands burn in hell.... a lackey of Kissinger, this is my shocked face). Full circle now during my time in, we get tasked to bomb the predictable offspring of that decision 10 years later in Syria, and I'm supposed to put my brain on pause and grab some pom poms? Nah I'm good. It was a waste when my friend Nylander lost his life, and it was still a waste in the Levant as we wrecked strategic heavy bombardment assets over turkey shoot medals with what could have been accomplished with surplus Yak-52s and recreational AR rifles a la Texas hog hunts. Digressing. In due credit to the Service, it did afford me the opportunity (via ARC) to focus on a role I not only could tolerate for 14+ years, but personally thrive in. I was always an aviatior purist at heart. I've never been fazed by the "flying for the sake of flying" supposed aspersion it's meant to imply, usually uttered by cOmBaT veT true scots fallacy merchants. I've legit enjoyed the amount of upside down flying the service has afforded me as a career instructor. Much bigger sense of personal accomplishment, in what conservatively is circa 500+ individual pilots and still counting. My time in the CAF left me rather unfulfilled by comparison, though that was a combination of poor career timing and luck (BRAC 05 no fighter soup fo you, TAMI-21, then PRP/PACAF babysitter bitch while the bones got all the turkey shoots). At any rate, my decades spent building something of personal import to me in the training command is a legacy that will outlive both me, as well as all of Uncle sammy's bullshit wars... and I'm here for it. We all have our rationalizations, I won't apologize for mine. My username checks. Now FUPM. 😄

Bro, there isn't an answer to this question for me. I'm not looking to be inspired by a politician, or to become emotionally involved about their opinions. I'm voting for Trump only because I believe his policies will make my life and this country better. I don't care if he shit talks John McCain or some retired general (the GWOT generals can't win and deserve derision anyway). Well I agree with this & cheers back at you; I appreciate reading your opinions despite thinking them completely wrong and slightly retarded. I'm sure we'd have a fun conversation over whiskey then go crush a mission and have each others back 🇺🇸 But you do have TDS 🙂

I can't disagree with your point on Vietnam, I guess I just meant we allowed ourselves to get drawn into an protracted quagmire with no real objective or end state, other than just keep killing bad guys* (kinda...more below). You can kill as many bad guys as you want, but at some point along the way, you just keep creating more bad guys after you kill their grand-fathers/fathers/uncles. Also, how many were there fighting only becuase we were occupying their nation? Your experience is probably vastly different than mine. My trips were marked with such a tight ROE that I really don't know why we were there. On my last trip we watched as we let a conga line of 75+ verified Taliban go because the O-7 and his JAG at AUAB decided we can't upset the Taliban at the table. This was just one of many events that were similar from that trip and the unit we ripped out had tapes of multiple situation which were much worse. As another point...when a GO/his JAG, over 1,000 NM away, are making every employment decision, then it's long past time to go home. We lost 2,459 solider "over there, but as you're well aware, the real number is much higher and counting. Your stats above are well taken, as well as other opinions on the knowledge/skill we gained for our next fight. On the flip side, many of those stats would happen either way and how much further would our military tech be if we didn't funnel our tax dollars to go sling 2 x $80k JDAMs at the farmer turned sniper? How much better off would our national deficit be? Would have been worse off if we would have just killed OBL at Tora Bora and pulled chocks? How much peace was gained by the second decade over there? Of course that's up to debate and something we'll never really knows. Maybe I'm being a bit too simplistic, I'd love to have this debate with many of you gents over beers.

They don’t really believe that. If they did, then people like Chuck Schumer wouldn’t have been sitting next to and getting roasted by Trump at the Al Smith Charity dinner a week and a half ago. It’s all fear mongering to drive up the vote. The disassociated voter doesn’t know policy positions or even that much about the daily interactions and gaffes, blunders, or mess ups of either candidate. But I’d venture to say that most everyone knows about Hitler and the Nazi’s (I say most because sometimes I’m still floored by people’s ignorance). And most know that Hitler/Nazi’s = bad. If you can say it enough, people may start believing it because they’ve heard it 1,000x. My opinion at least, and we all know what opinions are like.

Nice ride 🙌

If a progressive doesn’t like me because of my values then I’ll consider that a compliment!

Trump: Old, loud, unsophisticated, shoots off at the mouth, takes enemy fire up close, they keep trying to get rid of him but he sticks around longer than anyone thought. Harris: Remote controlled, annoying to be around, a threat to US citizens. Goes down a lot.

Thank you for proving my point. You missed the central point about the contradiction: If these Generals are such shitheads and “swamp dwellers”….then why did Trump hire them if he “knows the best people. Great people.” In fact, he only “hires the best people.” The answer, is, he was bullshitting, which he admitted to on the Rogan podcast yesterday: Rogan: “how did you know who to appoint?” Trump. “Well, I didn’t. I didn’t have any experience. I was there 17 times in Washington, but never stayed over. But I didn’t know anybody. I was a New York guy. I was a New York builder andI knew that whole world. But I didn't know the Washington world too well. And all of a sudden, you're supposed to be appointing top people. It’s the biggest mistake I made.” He found out he would have to take recommendations from advisors. He discovered that there were important reasons why politicians typically got hired. He mentions that some of his hires were “bad.” Joe asks how, and he answers “bad or disloyal people.” So this is a decent example of a core reason that many people are appalled at Trump’s candidacy: He’s fundamentally too foolish and arrogant to know what he’s getting himself into, so he just tries to make it up as he goes. …possibly the biggest example of “fake it till ya make it” ever. And worst of all, as he fumbles around faking it, he makes decisions based on ego and self-interest. That’s it. That’s the lense through which he sees life. And I know……people will say he was already President and we survived. That’s true. And I’m sure many will disagree with me, but I simply think we got lucky. I do. He’s in way over his head. A lot can go wrong in another 4 years. I posted about this before, but I’ll summarize again: Every single time people claim that Trump is smart, it’s by implication. Just like you did. “He must be smart, just look at how rich he became” or some such example. It is absolutely stunning that people don’t recognize him as an idiot. It is, to me, his most obvious and pronounced trait. Instead of implication, try using direct observation: Just listen to him speak (unscripted). Does he ever say anything that only a smart person could say? He rambles. He rants. He complains. He calls his enemies names. He never says anything that demonstrates knowledge, wisdom, vision, or expertise. To me this is the most fascinating part of politics, and it just gets more intense every campaign: The way people convince themselves that their candidate is the polar opposite of what they actually are. If you read 1984, the chapter about “Doublethink”, ….holy shit….it is profound. I’ve talked to many Trump supporters who call him brilliant, ….when he’s obviously stupid. They call him an Alpha male…..a guy with man-tits, a combover, and makeup. A guy who Harris was able to toy with just by saying people were leaving his rallies early. They actually think he’s religious… he doesn't know a thing about the Bible or the core tenets of Christianity. They’ve convinced themselves he cares about people and is selfless, ….. he obviously only cares about himself…… Rogan’s first question was: “what was it like right after the inauguration, actually being the POTUS?” And Trump goes into a stream of consciousness about how opulent and luxurious the bedrooms in the White House were. Mentioning the responsibility, a sense of duty, the trust imparted by the American people, the hope and pressure to do a good job on behalf of American people. …..anything like that….. It doesn’t even occur to him. For nearly 3 hours, the guy talks about himself, complains about criticism towards himself, complains about other people doing “terrible jobs” and “destroying the country,” etc. Like I said before, he’s faking it. But even in faking it, he’s not smart enough to fake caring about other people. It never occurs to him to praise other people or show gratitude or appreciation. It never occurs to him to mention colleagues, coworkers, friends, his wife, or people that have helped him. He never speaks of his confidence in Americans as people. He never even hints that pride and the success of the country are dependent upon other people. He just makes nonsense threats that the country will literally “cease to exist” if he’s not elected. I just find it remarkable that AF pilots, who ostensibly target “Humble, Approachable, Credible” as a measure of good leadership, can doublethink themselves into applying those traits to Trump. But….as they say, my personal opinions and .50 cents will get you a can of Pepsi at the snack bar. So, I’m going to bow out of this until after the election. I’m sure many will be happy about that. But……for all the downvotes and videos of my mom and accusations of TDS, here’s the crazy thing: If we were in a squadron together, we would get along great. I know, because many of my closest military bros and lifelong friends are Trump supporters. We rarely had spirited conversations about politics, but when we did, it never affected or soured the friendship. More often we’d have conversations about family, flying, tactics, sports, etc. The internet is a cesspool. I’m sure you guys are good solid bros, pilots, officers, and people. (…..the jury is still out on HeloDude if I’m being completely honest….but maybe.) Cheers

Glad to see Israel took care of business on their timeline and not our election cycle.