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Maybe if a guy/gal does a FAIP tour the war will be over when he/she finishes. Ever think of that, huh?

 

:-/

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The needs of the AF and to fulfill our military missions for the Joint Force Team.
Not sure if you are trolling or not but serious question:  
Do you think you will or would have more airmanship and particularly military aviator airmanship after a tour as a 3 year 1200 hour FAIP operating out of the same base and generally within about 1-2 hours flight time of that base and some CONUS TDYs or 4 year 2000 hour Instructor Pilot of an MWS (assuming heavy) who would have learned a new more complicated aircraft, more new mission sets, been on multiple overseas deployments, operated with different Air Branches & foreign AFs, mobility missions, alert force duty, large force exercises, business efforts, etc... ? 
I did both. I got far more airmanship from being a FAIP.

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10 hours ago, di1630 said:


Not sure how to take this so don’t be offended.

I was flying in ”war” last week and I would have traded the “war” I was doing for a nice UPT out and back where I could get a burger.

The really sad part was that my “war” mission was better than most of the other dudes/dudettes in the AO and I still felt that way.

I see the point, young pilots should want to see the mission but for me, “war” these days is boring as f-ck 96% of the time if not more.

If given the choice tomorrow to go to “war” or train dumb Lt’s to fly decent, I’m choosing the latter.
 

As a fellow oldish guy, I totally hear what you’re saying. But I also agree with the post you made in the other thread about your freshly MR wingman that loves every minute of your boring combat sorties. That’s what I was talking about earlier. I want kids like that in the AF. I don’t want a kid whose ambition is to simply get a bunch of time so he can go be an airline guy. I won’t begrudge a guy that punches at his commitment expiration (hell, that’s my plan), but if you want to just be an airline guy then go tow banners to build hours and get hired at a regional with min time and go that route.

I guess my bias was showing and I get kinda irritated having seen guys in my squadron that are using the AF as a stepping stone to the airlines but they’re tactically weak and anchors around the office. But for better or worse, their 1.0 is the same 1.0 shit hot pilots (like Bashi) are logging on the 781. Such is life.

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Strictly my opinion, but if you FAIP with the intention of being marketable to airline...fvck you. I know we are trying to generate pilots, but we’re not trying to make airline pilots. I’m with the other AFSOC brains here...go out and cut your teeth while the war is still hot. After you’ve seen you fair share of shit and combat has lost luster, take your white jet tour.

As an aside, I have to seriously question the word of a guy who says that his FAIP tour developed a greater sense of airmanship than a combat deployment to Afghanistan in a barrel-roll capable King Air. 

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On 3/28/2018 at 10:02 PM, pilotguy said:

Ya it can go both ways for sure but I’d rather get 1200 instructor hours and lots of airmanship before heading off into the real Air Force. Especially when they cut the syllabus in half. You’ll get more than your fill of the operational world. They got you for 10 long years...What’s the rush?

Idk ask any of the mid to senior captains yanked off the Sq flying deployments because their ground job making PowerPoints and editing OPRs is more important.  It’s a young man’s game for the most part.  

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1 hour ago, Standby said:

Strictly my opinion, but if you FAIP with the intention of being marketable to airline...fvck you. 

I didn’t put FAIP high and I’m glad I didn’t get it, but I think anyone who gives 10 good years to the Cause is one of the good guys even if he isn’t a spec ops fighter pilot.  All of us choose our assignments on differing criteria, and  being good officer/pilot/powepoint god while maitaining a cognizance of outside opportunities are surely not mutually exclusive.  But then again, as an FNG, my millennial might be showing. 

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On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 10:42 PM, Duck said:

I’m gonna disagree. Having just left T-6s to go to a top-choice, sweet location AMC base, I would much prefer to go back to AETC. I thought life sucked in T-6 land, but holy hell life sucks 1,000 times more in AMC. I would stay in AETC as long and as often as you can. Unless you like watching your kids grow up over Skype, then I guess AMC may be for you.

Copy, I don't deny that QoL could be better at an AETC assignment vs. an AMC assignment (or other MAJCOM) but out of training for your operational skill and this is just my two cents you should want to perform your operational skill, particularly at the beginning of your career, in an operational assignment. 

Would you join a football team, go thru all the hell and practices and then not want to play in the game?

23 hours ago, pilotguy said:

AF “needs” UPT instructors too. Pretty bad right now actually.  

If kids were smart, they would T-1 FAIP. It’s not really close either. Opens so many doors no matter what your goals in life are. 

FAIPs are leaving their first assignment with 1200+ Multi engine instructor hours and SOS, Flight command, and Exec all checked off as a young second year captain. They get to their AMC units, upgrade in half the time as their peers and are off to the races... Name another MWS where that all happens.

And like Duck says...AMC sucks (hence the huge pilot shortage) so again...what’s the rush?

No doubt the need to produce is greater but the Operational Mission comes first, the 3 meter target vs the 10 meter target.  Basically the AF has to do both at the same time, to me that would be shifting resources from non-core missions / lower requirements to boost SUPT production while maintaining delivery of quality SUPT graduates. 

AMC (or any other Operational MAJCOM) may have personal challenges and costs but that is where the missions to defend the nation, defeat the enemy, deter aggression, support the team and secure our interests are being executed, the rush should be to be a part of that.  It will be there after a FAIP assignment but it just seems odd to go thru the marathon to get a pilot slot, get thru SUPT and then not want to get to the mission.

10 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:
On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 10:18 PM, Clark Griswold said:
The needs of the AF and to fulfill our military missions for the Joint Force Team.
Not sure if you are trolling or not but serious question:  
Do you think you will or would have more airmanship and particularly military aviator airmanship after a tour as a 3 year 1200 hour FAIP operating out of the same base and generally within about 1-2 hours flight time of that base and some CONUS TDYs or 4 year 2000 hour Instructor Pilot of an MWS (assuming heavy) who would have learned a new more complicated aircraft, more new mission sets, been on multiple overseas deployments, operated with different Air Branches & foreign AFs, mobility missions, alert force duty, large force exercises, business efforts, etc... ? 

I did both. I got far more airmanship from being a FAIP.

Roger, have not been an SUPT IP so I will respect your opinion and keep mine.

Edited by Clark Griswold

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As an aside, I have to seriously question the word of a guy who says that his FAIP tour developed a greater sense of airmanship than a combat deployment to Afghanistan in a barrel-roll capable King Air. 


Too soon? Haha

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Strictly my opinion, but if you FAIP with the intention of being marketable to airline...fvck you. I know we are trying to generate pilots, but we’re not trying to make airline pilots. I’m with the other AFSOC brains here...go out and cut your teeth while the war is still hot. After you’ve seen you fair share of shit and combat has lost luster, take your white jet tour.
As an aside, I have to seriously question the word of a guy who says that his FAIP tour developed a greater sense of airmanship than a combat deployment to Afghanistan in a barrel-roll capable King Air. 

Fvck you. You sound like the kind of ahole who thinks it’s unpatriotic to leave once your TEN YEAR ADSC is up.
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On 3/29/2018 at 7:19 PM, Standby said:

Strictly my opinion, but if you FAIP with the intention of being marketable to airline...fvck you. I know we are trying to generate pilots, but we’re not trying to make airline pilots. I’m with the other AFSOC brains here...go out and cut your teeth while the war is still hot. After you’ve seen you fair share of shit and combat has lost luster, take your white jet tour.

As an aside, I have to seriously question the word of a guy who says that his FAIP tour developed a greater sense of airmanship than a combat deployment to Afghanistan in a barrel-roll capable King Air. 

Teaching in AETC developed more airmanship and situational awareness, for me, than my three assignments in AMC.  This is especially true when teaching a lazy Saudi. However, people that “hide out” in AETC assignments, on purpose, because they don’t want to deploy because their goldfish would get depressed are generally bitches.

Edited by Azimuth

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57 minutes ago, ihtfp06 said:


Fvck you. You sound like the kind of ahole who thinks it’s unpatriotic to leave once your TEN YEAR ADSC is up.

Quite contrary. I appreciate the amount of work that most FAIPs put into the pilot production process. That being said, I have no respect for people who would FAIP for the sole reason of trying to pad an airline resume. Simply a matter of opinion, and mine is that the AF has a combat requirement to fulfill. Cheers. 

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Who cares? If you joined to build time for the airlines, more power to you. Just do your job while you're in, and be the best military aviator you can be until it's time to punch, whether it's 10 years, 20 years, or more.

As for wanting to stay in AETC to dodge deployments, I don't really see a line for people looking to volunteer for deployments. Maybe if there weren't so many worthless deployments out there, people wouldn't try so hard to avoid deployments.

For every dude that tries to hide it in AETC, there's probably a dude that would rather stay out in an ops assignment. That's a win-win-win: the AF keeps 2 guys on the books filling positions that need to be filled, and each guy is happy with their assignment. And maybe, just maybe, if they're happy with what they are doing, maybe they'll stay in past their commitment, improving retention. Letting each of those guys do what they want is better than forcing the guy who wants to stay in ops to AETC and vice versa.

But no, let's go with one size fits all for everyone's careers, and everyone should have the same goals and desires as me, and those that don't aren't mission hackers. Because that's worked so well in the past.

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the original argument made was "its a no brainer" to choose FAIP over operational because you build your airline resume. "if kids were smart they would T-1 FAIP"

lotta strawmans being built that aren't addressing the main front.

Nothing wrong with FAIPS we need em...but FAIPing to get "1200+ Multi engine instructor hours and SOS, Flight command, and Exec all checked off as a young second year captain" vs. going downrange and doing a real mission is the wrong attitude to have IMHO...and i bet most kids dont give a hoot about that stuff as young 2lts. If you care about checking boxes as a dude going thru pilot training...you're a SNAP shoe and that type of pilot is how we've found ourselves in the current situation.

AND saying you get more SA flying in the UPT environment than flying worldwide ops is down right laughable.

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Someone's got to do it (FAIP), and I don't care what their reasoning is if they are volunteering as long as their qualified. I'd rather see volunteers fill the positions because maybe they'll be happy with their assignment, and that should make for better quality work. Plus, there's no professional trainer pilot track anymore, so they'll get their operational time in eventually. Maybe they want to check the boxes early so when they hit the line they can focus on the mission. Or not. Who cares?

 

Choosing to FAIP to build time for the airlines is no worse than the MWS guy wanting to teach UPT T-1 to build multi instructor/PIC time. Same thing, different timing. Weird how guys (at least from what I've seen in the MAF) generally don't want to go fly the T-6, but will jump on a T-1.

 

It's also no different than an Airmen enlisting for a 4 year commitment to get college paid for, or someone going through ROTC to pay for their college, or a doctor going through USUHS to pay for med school and intending to only serve their initial commitment and then go into private practice. They are no less patriotic then someone who signs up to go to war: they are all serving their country, and as long as they are doing their jobs, who cares what their reasoning behind serving is?

 

It's the idealist "everyone should have joined because we're at war and they should want to go to war" that eventually leads to "here's your crappy deployment, it's necessary because we're at war, you volunteered for this when you took your oath, blah blah blah service before self."

 

Plus, who can blame the students for thinking ahead to the airlines when their IPs, their role models for what it means to be military aviators, are openly discussing airline hiring, how they got abused in their operational units, and can't wait to hit their commitment to punch?

 

Edit to add: I will concede that I don't consider it a no-breaker to FAIP to build time for the airlines, at least for what I wanted to accomplish with my military service.

 

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Great post.

But it’s obvious heavy guys and fighter guys think differently. And that’s fine, I like the idea that those guys are so driven to kill bad guys. Makes me sleep well at night and I appreciate it. While I’m in I’ll enjoy my support roll flying cargo and contributing however I can.

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Great post.
But it’s obvious heavy guys and fighter guys think differently. And that’s fine, I like the idea that those guys are so driven to kill bad guys. Makes me sleep well at night and I appreciate it. While I’m in I’ll enjoy my support roll flying cargo and contributing however I can.

Except I know a ton of fighter guys who jumped at white jets to make a better life for their family. Bottom line is that people are motivated by different things. If the AF was smart they would try to leverage what motivates people instead of trying to fit everyone into a standard mold of what they THINK should motivate people.
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Except I know a ton of fighter guys who jumped at white jets to make a better life for their family. Bottom line is that people are motivated by different things. If the AF was smart they would try to leverage what motivates people instead of trying to fit everyone into a standard mold of what they THINK should motivate people.
Let's not forget that the pilot crisis (according to the AF) started when fighter guys started quitting after being away from home at rates barely approaching what MAF guys were at a decade ago. And many of them are quitting during the most trigger happy period in the last 15 years. To go to the airlines.

If a patriotic group of guys and gals are looking to go be FAIPs or regular UPT IPs to strengthen airline resumes, that's a critique on our foreign policy and military leadership, not on their devotion to service.
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KEND 18-08

T-38:
F-15E Seymour Johnson
F-16 Luke
C-146 Duke
T-6 FAIP

T-1:
C-146 Duke
C-12 Yakota
MC-130J Cannon
T-1 FAIP
KC-135x2 McConnell, MacDill
C-17x3 (McChord, Hickam, McGuire)
KC-10 McGuire
HC-130J Davis Monthan
EC-130H Davis Monthan

Active Duty drops that I can remember...

---------------------------------

KEND 19-01 Track Select (class rolled from 18-15)

9xT-38 AD (+3 Saudi)

11xT-1 AD (+2 Reserve)

2xTH-1

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XL 18-08

T-1
C21 Ramstein
C5 Dover
KC135 March x2
C17 Stewart ANG
KC10 McGuire 
KC135 Mildenhall
AC130 Hurlburt 
T6 FAIP
KC135 Guard

T38
Saudi fighter
T38 FAIP x3
F16 tbd x2
F22 Tyndall
A10 DM
 

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9 hours ago, zachtx said:

KEND 18-08

T-38:
F-15E Seymour Johnson
F-16 Luke
C-146 Duke
T-6 FAIP

T-1:
C-146 Duke
C-12 Yakota
MC-130J Cannon
T-1 FAIP
KC-135x2 McConnell, MacDill
C-17x3 (McChord, Hickam, McGuire)
KC-10 McGuire
HC-130J Davis Monthan
EC-130H Davis Monthan

Active Duty drops that I can remember...

---------------------------------

KEND 19-01 Track Select (class rolled from 18-15)

9xT-38 AD (+3 Saudi)

11xT-1 AD (+2 Reserve)

2xTH-1

C-146 to Duke for a T-38 kid? AD? Story?

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Probably not much of a story. I was 18-02 and they told us we weren’t getting any MAF assets. We had E-8, RC-135, U-28 from 38s in my drop. 

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CBM 18-08:

T-38:

4x F-16 TBD
1x F-15E Seymour
1x A-10 DM
1x T-6 FAIP DLF
1x JASDF TBD

T-1:

1x U-28 Hurlburt
1x HC-130 NY ANG
1x C-5 Travis
1x T-1 FAIP CBM
1x T-6 FAIP CBM
1x C-130J Ramstein
1x C-130H IL ANG
1x KC-10 Travis
4x KC-135 Fairchild, TN ANG, PA ANG, MD AFRC
3x C-17 Dover, Travis, McChord

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T-38 drops between all three bases was fighters and FAIPs with exception of that single C-146. Wow. 

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