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Promotion and PRF Information


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You can't compare the two... it isn't realistic, especially for a pilot to expect an AAD for SOS. 1 Year sitting around casual waiting to start UPT, 1 year in UPT, minimum of 1 year between Land/Water survival... RTU... PCS... Mission Ready program. So now you have a 1 Lt who knows just enough to be dangerous and through no fault of his own probably sucks at flying the jet just because he is new/little flight experience and we have these douche bag Commanders basically telling them they better not only start, but finish their AAD immediately or else?!? Not sure what the 100% SOS in residence plan is, but I can tell you that we have many more Capts in our Agency that have not been than there are in resident slots... granted there is obviously a 3 year window, but with the averages there will still be a decent amount that will not be able to go unless our slots increase.

I would like to add this can be close to a similar scenario for multiple support career-fields to depending on where they're assigned. I have many peers who pulled multiple deployments in their first 4 years, and some of those included months long "battlefield" training.

We could get into the discussion of an online degree, and then we're just talking about a NEW band-aid to a broken leadership scenario.

The fact that some bases include PT scores in rating their folks is atrocious. Why don't they just include photos so they can make sure only the individuals the exec thinks are "hot" can go.

Rating Lt's the same way you rate O4/5... way to set folks up for success.

Edited by 17D_guy
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If they have a board that's similar to what you see for O-4/5, what does those boards use as a discriminator? It's the AAD. But I've seen some go in res without even a BAC+. Have no clue how that happens. Timing I guess.

Your level of douchebaggery never ceases to amaze me.

You have got to be a troll.

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If they have a board that's similar to what you see for O-4/5, what does those boards use as a discriminator? It's the AAD. But I've seen some go in res without even a BAC+. Have no clue how that happens. Timing I guess.

Well hell, if that's the case let's just promote the people who go to SOS in-residence and eliminate PRFs for O-4 entirely. It's the same dicriminators, right? How much time, energy, and money would that save during the budget crisis?

Edited by pawnman
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Well hell, if that's the case let's just promote the people who go to SOS in-residence and eliminate PRFs for O-4 entirely. It's the same dicriminators, right? How much time, energy, and money would that save during the budget crisis?

That's essentially what we do anyway isn't it? My last OG/CC was doing his rack and stack for O-4 PRFs and he showed me his "criteria list" on his notes page. One of the notes said, "Non-Res SOS = Scumbag". He was laughing when he showed it to me, but not one of the non-res SOS types got a DP. So basically if this new douche bag O-6 in my agency now is saying no SOS in Res without an AAD completed he is basically telling these young Capts and Lts that if you don't do what he says and get your Masters now you probably won't make Maj and definitely won't make Lt Col. Again... he is basically requiring an effing Masters before pinning on Capt and deciding at that point who will get promoted to FGO!!!

Edited by Rusty Pipes
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If they have a board that's similar to what you see for O-4/5, what does those boards use as a discriminator? It's the AAD. But I've seen some go in res without even a BAC+. Have no clue how that happens. Timing I guess.

"Have no clue how that happens." Here are a few clues:

Step one: dudes are good at their j-o-b. Their primary job. Not building building habitat for humanity houses, not planning community "fun runs." Executing their primary mission.

Step two: their commanders/raters are good at their j-o-b. Their primary job. Managing and leading their people. Not looking at spreadsheets with AAD stats.

Oh, snap. I forgot where I worked. I meant to say...

... In residence SOS without even putting in enough effort to get a BAC+?! What an outrage!

Edited by BUSTED
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"Have no clue how that happens." Here are a few clues:

Step one: dudes are good at their j-o-b. Their primary job. Not building building habitat for humanity houses, not planning community "fun runs." Executing their primary mission.

Step two: their commanders/raters are good at their j-o-b. Their primary job. Managing and leading their people. Not looking at spreadsheets with AAD stats.

Oh, snap. I forgot where I worked. I meant to say...

... In residence SOS without even putting in enough effort to get a BAC+?! What an outrage!

As much as I agree that this guy is a troll and bad for the Air Force, I think he was referring to ACSC. He is a tool though, so it wouldn't surprise me if he really did mean SOS.

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Just heard the "deciding O-6" in our Agency tell us that he will be selecting those who attend SOS in residence for his upcoming board based on completion of SOS in correspondence (whatever, standard) and masters completion!!! Not for O-4 or O-5 promotion boards of even IDE... masters completion to go to effing SOS!!!!! For an O-5 board; sure... O-4 board; maybe... to go to SOS?!? Why are these incredible morons who now sit in what used to be leadership positions so hell bent on picking future Colonels and Generals when they are just LT's and young Capts?!? I give up... :flipoff::banghead::bash::bohica:

This just can't be...

I was in my third year as Capt when I went to SOS. Finished my AAD right after (a year before my O-4 board). I started doing one Masters class per term within 4 months of arriving at my first operational squadron, and doubled up on a deployment. It still took me that long to finish. Unless guys are going to SOS later (closer to their O-4 board now), it seems infeasible that they would have an AAD completed in that amount of time. Either that, or are guys really getting their Masters done THAT early now?

I hate a lot of things about the AF as much as anyone, but are you sure you aren't exaggerating a tad, Rusty?

Edited by Champ Kind
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This just can't be... are guys really getting their Masters done THAT early now?

I had guys in my IFS class working on their masters. When I reclassed to space, I started mine, doubled up every semester and finished as a 1st Lt. Most of the people in my classes were other Lts. It is not unusual for people to be working on classes during training, on the flying side and the non-flying side. Working crew as a space person, you are pretty much expected to be doing homework during slow times in ops. I'm honestly glad I did it then, because that was the best timing for me. The problem is the Air Force expects that of junior flyers too, which is asinine and unrealistic.

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I had guys in my IFS class working on their masters. When I reclassed to space, I started mine, doubled up every semester and finished as a 1st Lt. Most of the people in my classes were other Lts. It is not unusual for people to be working on classes during training, on the flying side and the non-flying side. Working crew as a space person, you are pretty much expected to be doing homework during slow times in ops. I'm honestly glad I did it then, because that was the best timing for me. The problem is the Air Force expects that of junior flyers too, which is asinine and unrealistic.

About the same, most of my peers are done and I guess I'm lagging since I didn't roll the TUI/Trident sorta thing. Told a O6 I was knocking out Master's classes and he asked if I had SoS done yet. I said no, (3 classes a semester), and got a dirty look. Whatever, I can retire as a Capt, give a sh*t meter broken.

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I watch how leadership operates. The person who didn't even work on their AAD at all is getting out. Why send him in residence just to fill a slot when someone from another squadron could have gone instead? This didn't make sense to me since the slots at my base are limited due to a large number of CGOs. I just don't like to screw people over and the individual in question is not a top tier person in the squadron.

I know it's hard to decide who goes versus who stays. That's why I like to seek out knowledge on the process so I don't get it wrong if I have to do it someday.

Dude, really? The LT or first year capt who doesn't have a masters is "getting out"? I hope you don't ever have to make real decisions some day.

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This just can't be...

I was in my third year as Capt when I went to SOS. Finished my AAD right after (a year before my O-4 board). I started doing one Masters class per term within 4 months of arriving at my first operational squadron, and doubled up on a deployment. It still took me that long to finish. Unless guys are going to SOS later (closer to their O-4 board now), it seems infeasible that they would have an AAD completed in that amount of time. Either that, or are guys really getting their Masters done THAT early now?

I hate a lot of things about the AF as much as anyone, but are you sure you aren't exaggerating a tad, Rusty?

Unfortunately, he's not exaggerating Champ. As an ORF sim instructor, we have a bunch of brand new LTs fresh from UPT who are working on their AAD while going through initial qual. Their GK sucks because they're spending more time on AMU/Touro/E-R than in the Dash-1/3-3.

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I'm speaking for how my base operates. I'm not making a blanket AF statement. The people who had their AAD complete went in residence without a problem. The OG says to have it done by the 2 year mark as a captain.

Could I have done this despite two deployments pretty much back to back? Yes, but I was tired after my second deployment and neglected to finish my last 3 classes until the beginning of this year. I took a break from school but I personally had enough time to get it done in 2 years but it took me 4 years. When I was knocking classes out I wasn't out drinking and partying. I would study aircraft knowledge and perform my squadron job, then go home and do homework. While deployed, I did homework when I had free time after hacking the mission.

You guys remember the Lt who posted that he was passed over for captain because he didn't have enough leadership? Someone told him that non-flyers are Flt/CC's as Lt's and that was the problem.

If a flyer and non-flyer look pretty even for a slot how do you break the tie if one has an AAD and the other one hasn't even attempted one? Is it actually fair to have a board that mimics what a promotion board does but solely for SOS slots?

I don't want any of my people screwed over that's why this process intrigues me.

Wow, I hate myself for having tried to defend you. You were talking about in residence to SOS without bac+. One thing if you're OG is an idiot and forcing this level of pain on young CGO's, but it's 10x worse that you defend and cling to his style. You are surely bound for this new AF style of greatness. I'm a school select, but have zero desire to go when I see that the majority of people that got selected seem to be in your category. At first I thought it was cool that I somehow got picked up for it, but now I have to look inside to examine why I somehow got lumped in with a group of you tools...

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I've got to assume slick999 is a KC-10 guy. That's the only community that I've been around where dudes will blatantly tell you that the only reason they want to be an IP is so they can compete to be the wing exec.

Apparently you've never met anyone from the -17 community.

Edited by Azimuth
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Bah blah blah..

If a flyer and non-flyer look pretty even for a slot how do you break the tie if one has an AAD and the other one hasn't even attempted one? Is it actually fair to have a board that mimics what a promotion board does but solely for SOS slots?

You select the best leader. Leadership is not measured by how much AAD you can attain. This isn't a Cyber Awareness CBT of Farmville.

So if I'm the selector of SOS attendees, and my leaders are sitting at the table with their lists of potentials and its time to pick the next one and its between the flyer and the non-flyer, I'd start with "state your case." The first one that mentions AAD will get the response of "big whoop-dee-doo, got anything that means something?"

You see, the point is that anyone can enroll in school and get pretty certificates to hang on the wall. It takes about zero leadership potential to do that and some self-motivation. But you keep on singing the AAD song and its stuck in your head like a bad one hit wonder. You look silly singing it out long all day except to the boss that has the same lame-ass song stuck in his head too.

Out

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Why must you always derail the topic and make the discussion about utter nonsense? I don't think there is rock big enough at Stonehenge that we can cram down your throat for you to shut up. We know who suffers from ADHD in this forum. Get that checked out.

We aren't talking about how many people I rate. They are my people because they are my responsibility.

I for one think its very pertinent to know what your office job is.

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You select the best leader. Leadership is not measured by how much AAD you can attain. This isn't a Cyber Awareness CBT of Farmville.

So if I'm the selector of SOS attendees, and my leaders are sitting at the table with their lists of potentials and its time to pick the next one and its between the flyer and the non-flyer, I'd start with "state your case." The first one that mentions AAD will get the response of "big whoop-dee-doo, got anything that means something?"

You see, the point is that anyone can enroll in school and get pretty certificates to hang on the wall. It takes about zero leadership potential to do that and some self-motivation. But you keep on singing the AAD song and its stuck in your head like a bad one hit wonder. You look silly singing it out long all day except to the boss that has the same lame-ass song stuck in his head too.

Out

at my last base the OG would say getting your AAD only shows big blue that you can do what you are told....He would also say he thought it shouldn't be a factor in any promotion decision but it was above him so he recommended you get it done.

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I really hope the lurkers on this board who are young and trying to learn a lesson on how to be a good leader takes some notes on these discussions. If you've resorted solely to checkmarks to determine leadership then you are doing your troops a severe injustice. Case in point:

You have to rack and stack three dudes based off these metrics alone (simplified yes, but proving a point):

- Commission Class Ranking

- AAD complete by O-4

Dude 1:

- 46/103

- No

Dude 2:

- Top Half

- No

Dude 3:

- 5/100

- Yes

In today's AF structure, Dude 1 and 2 would get passed over for school (and probably promotion) and Dude 3 would be fat, dumb, and happy. Except...

Dude 1: General Patton

Dude 2: General Eisenhower

Dude 3: Some dude who flies for the airlines.

The laziest leaders are the ones who solely use a few checkboxes, BMI measurements, and in-res SOS by the second lunar cycle of the fourth equinox to determine who's a leader and who isn't. CC's should know each of their dudes and give them feedback, regularly. And slick, it sounds like your O-6 is a douche but I think it's reasonable to ask your CC to ask what the O-6 expects to see and learn from it. Yes, he/she's in charge but you can sometimes learn more from bad leadership than good.

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We aren't talking about how many people I rate. They are my people because they are my responsibility.

Credibility is everything in this business. You may be able to rise through the ranks without it thanks to our promotion/development process, but those that do fail to receive anything more than the basic respect that their rank/position dictates.

Let me spell it out for you:

You are coming across as a twerp. No one is taking you seriously. You like to throw around phrases like "look out for my guys" which insinuates that you are in some position of authority. By "position of authority", I specifically mean squadron command. The remaining content of your posts clearly contradicts that, though. You sound like a pure and utter tool. Like that guy in ROTC/USAFA/wherever who thought that being the "Cadet Wing Commander" actually made him a Wing/CC.

You are under the impression that you have some type of control as to who goes to SOS and who does not. Or who gets promoted, and who does not. Unless you are on the one MAKING those decisions, you have no control over it. If you are indeed a direct supervisor (flight commander, shop chief, etc), I would recommend you focus on making sure "your guys" are ready to employ whatever task/weapon system they are charged with, and let the higher ups figure out how they want to un-fuck the officer development process. Trust me, if you are anything "in person" like the persona you exude on this forum, you will be sparing your subordinates a great deal of pain by refraining from offering any "mentoring".

at my last base the OG would say getting your AAD only shows big blue that you can do what you are told....He would also say he thought it shouldn't be a factor in any promotion decision but it was above him so he recommended you get it done.

I had one that called it "pay to play" and equated it to a price of admission in the same what that you go to a movie theater and are charged for a ticket.

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