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Promotion and PRF Information


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Well Gents, it’s been fun but Duck is now a twice passed over Captain on his way out the door. I appreciate all of you who reached out and offered me advice throughout the years. I know that I will ha

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Yes...and shockingly, got picked up 1 APZ with a 5/10 push line and P on the PRF. Sometimes there is justice in the system.

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Young guys take note.  Set yourself up early to be financially independent of the military retirement.   Read up on investing during deployments,  spend/save/invest your money wisely, and make yourself marketable to the outside world.   You will have much less stress when the time comes to decide to stay or punch from the AF.   

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16 hours ago, slackline said:


Am I misunderstanding you in that young Captains should be getting DO and SQ/CC pushes? Am I taking crazy pills?

For captains I wouldn’t necessarily say that but as a major you for damn sure better have the DO or Sq/CC push.  Certainly if It’s not on your PRF it’s a kiss of death (and it’s presence on a PRF won’t guarantee promotion either).  

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1 hour ago, snoopyeast said:

Young guys take note.  Set yourself up early to be financially independent of the military retirement.   Read up on investing during deployments,  spend/save/invest your money wisely, and make yourself marketable to the outside world.   You will have much less stress when the time comes to decide to stay or punch from the AF.   

Exactly. ACSC in correspondence won’t be going on my airline apps, but that bullsh1t masters I “had to get” to make major will.... choose wisely. 

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For captains I wouldn’t necessarily say that but as a major you for damn sure better have the DO or Sq/CC push.  Certainly if It’s not on your PRF it’s a kiss of death (and it’s presence on a PRF won’t guarantee promotion either).  


This is what sucks for those of us who were farmed out to RPAs and why those of us who returned to cockpits will all be leaving. Upon coming back you can either choose to fly your ass off to regain some credibility in your MWS, or you can sit behind the desk and work for that DO/CC push.


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I disagree that a Sq/CC or DO push comes from working behind a desk.  Plenty of opportunities to show potential for command without being an Exec (if that's what you mean by sitting behind a desk).  Of course, your Chief of Stan/Eval has a desk to sit at and paperwork to push.

 

 

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2 hours ago, MooseAg03 said:

 


This is what sucks for those of us who were farmed out to RPAs and why those of us who returned to cockpits will all be leaving. Upon coming back you can either choose to fly your ass off to regain some credibility in your MWS, or you can sit behind the desk and work for that DO/CC push.


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That choice is easy, fly. The last 3 years I’ve been robbed of flying. You can bet your ass off I will be in the air every second I can, mostly because I just love being the air, but partially  to bolster my airline app.

My life has been much better since I stopped caring about all the other bullshit and focused on being a pilot. 

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I disagree that a Sq/CC or DO push comes from working behind a desk.  Plenty of opportunities to show potential for command without being an Exec (if that's what you mean by sitting behind a desk).  Of course, your Chief of Stan/Eval has a desk to sit at and paperwork to push.
 
 

From what I see (and it was this way in ACC as well), you have to work at an attached or on loan job to be considered worth anything. Squadron superstars are always pushed out to jobs above the squadron level (and in RPAs they are reserved for guys who re-catted). I’m fine with that, but I’m not going to waste what time I have left with that noise, as Viper said. I’m trying to rack up as much time as possible before punching, and a ridiculous desk job doesn’t facilitate that. Because of that, you can bet my last few OPRs on active duty won’t have any sort of DO or CC push. I’ll take my chances getting promoted in the guard/reserve, and hopefully without ACSC by correspondence.


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Just got a call. "Man, can you help with with my PRF/ROP. It's late to the group and the Gp/CC wants my PRF now." I told the fellow DO the group exec doesn't know what he is doing. The eligibles don't do their own ROPs. I helped him out of course. I told the DO if the group exec needs any help just to ask. It's obvious the exec is just forwarding emails from the wing exec.

Nothing like a bud having to hammer out a 2 BPZ PRF/ROP on a Sunday during football with the Gp/CC on his ass. 

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35 minutes ago, MooseAg03 said:


 I’ll take my chances getting promoted in the guard/reserve, and hopefully without ACSC by correspondence.


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Your shitty PRF won't be a problem for O-5 in the Reserves, hell we promote convicted deviants. Your lack of ACSC in correspondence however, will 100% guarantee your non-promotion. I'm telling you, it's that binary.

It's a matter of opportunity cost. A reserve retirement is not that lucrative when you have to wait for it until 60 (or high 50s as a disbursement buydown for certain 90 day chunks of orders post-2008), to the degree that O-4 vs O-5 would make a difference in your life.

All you're doing with reaching for O-5 is increasing your MSD in the reserves, which for an airline guy may or may not be worthwhile, depending on if the airline treats you right or you get sodomized in the *next (not *if) airline musical chair stopping period. That's more of a airline timing and industry thing, than anything inherent to O-5 considerations on the mil side.

Active duty retirement via the Reserves? Sure, you probably have an incentive to push through the bullshit ACSC side quest (which gets worse by the decade). Of course that also requires looking for O-5AGR in the line, where a lot of people time out waiting on a younger guy sitting ont the controlled position, and have to go looking for some retirement desk job just to get the TIG and go back to their airline. I'd certainly wouldn't do that just to get O-5 since I don't have a turbine job in my back pocket like MLOA airline guys do, but that's me and my reasons for sticking around in the military full time vice rummaging through civilian commercial aviation.

So do ACSC, and you'll make O-5. Don't, and you won't. It's not the end of the world, but it is that simple. Meaning there's no decoder ring here like there is on Active Duty. No excuse for not knowing this in the AFRC side. I'm not defending it; I'm exceedingly UNINSPIRED by every administrative aspect of my career, and it is tough as an intelligent individual to accept that mediocrity. I'm only here because I'm still having fun in the flight line. They touch my "baby" single issue vote, and I vanish like a fart with the wind so fast all they'll see is the outline of my prior self like Wylie coyote. I digress, my point being, the outcome track is open source, so it's an easy decision to formulate in the ARC. No decoder ring needed.

 

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Just got a call. "Man, can you help with with my PRF/ROP. It's late to the group and the Gp/CC wants my PRF now." I told the fellow DO the group exec doesn't know what he is doing. The eligibles don't do their own ROPs. I helped him out of course. I told the DO if the group exec needs any help just to ask. It's obvious the exec is just forwarding emails from the wing exec.
Nothing like a bud having to hammer out a 2 BPZ PRF/ROP on a Sunday during football with the Gp/CC on his ass. 

How dumb are you?


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52 minutes ago, hindsight2020 said:

Your lack of ACSC in correspondence however, will 100% guarantee your non-promotion

To be clear, the guard does allow promotion without PME through ROPMA.  Not a guarantee, but seems like a high Pk promotion for pilots at least.  Downside is you lose a few years of O-5 pay, so even for money alone it's probably worth doing ACSC if you're a full time guy and not living off an airline paycheck.  Sucks that ROPMA isn't an option in the Reserves.

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Just got a call. "Man, can you help with with my PRF/ROP. It's late to the group and the Gp/CC wants my PRF now." I told the fellow DO the group exec doesn't know what he is doing. The eligibles don't do their own ROPs. I helped him out of course. I told the DO if the group exec needs any help just to ask. It's obvious the exec is just forwarding emails from the wing exec.
Nothing like a bud having to hammer out a 2 BPZ PRF/ROP on a Sunday during football with the Gp/CC on his ass. 


Did you slide down the pole to the bat cave when you got the call?
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1 hour ago, MooseAg03 said:


From what I see (and it was this way in ACC as well), you have to work at an attached or on loan job to be considered worth anything. Squadron superstars are always pushed out to jobs above the squadron level (and in RPAs they are reserved for guys who re-catted). I’m fine with that, but I’m not going to waste what time I have left with that noise, as Viper said. I’m trying to rack up as much time as possible before punching, and a ridiculous desk job doesn’t facilitate that. Because of that, you can bet my last few OPRs on active duty won’t have any sort of DO or CC push. I’ll take my chances getting promoted in the guard/reserve, and hopefully without ACSC by correspondence.


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Jobs outside the squadron prepare you for squadron command. I learned more about how a wing functions in 18 months on a wing staff than I ever knew in years at the squadron. I’m not saying that they prepare you to be a *good Sq/CC but you learn how all the pieces fit together. I understand that in your case you want to do your time, maximize your flying, and move on to better things, and I can respect that. I just get tired of the same old story that everyone in group, wing, or other staff jobs are only trying to climb the ladder at the expense of someone else. Maybe that has been your experience but it hasn’t been mine at all. I’ve had good commanders that did their best for their best people and worked to get them jobs that would broaden their experience and maybe prepare them to work outside the squadron sometime in the future. 

 

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1 hour ago, Homestar said:

Jobs outside the squadron prepare you for squadron command. I learned more about how a wing functions in 18 months on a wing staff than I ever knew in years at the squadron. I’m not saying that they prepare you to be a *good Sq/CC but you learn how all the pieces fit together. I understand that in your case you want to do your time, maximize your flying, and move on to better things, and I can respect that. I just get tired of the same old story that everyone in group, wing, or other staff jobs are only trying to climb the ladder at the expense of someone else. Maybe that has been your experience but it hasn’t been mine at all. I’ve had good commanders that did their best for their best people and worked to get them jobs that would broaden their experience and maybe prepare them to work outside the squadron sometime in the future. 

 

Same.  I've learned a ton about the wing in my OGV and IG jobs that I was never exposed to staying solely within the flying squadron.

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Agree, but do all O-5s need to be SQ/CCs? We’re saying you need the pushes to get promoted, and you need to work a desk job outside of the squadron to get the pushes. What about those that want to focus on flying? My goal if I stayed active for 20 would be to serve as the Chief Pilot for the Sq, does that not deserve O-5?

Sorry for the barrage of questions, but it seems like the options for those that don’t desire squadron command are to either sign a ridiculous ADSC for the joke of a fly-only track, or get passed over twice and then accept continuation.


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29 minutes ago, MooseAg03 said:

Agree, but do all O-5s need to be SQ/CCs? We’re saying you need the pushes to get promoted, and you need to work a desk job outside of the squadron to get the pushes. What about those that want to focus on flying? My goal if I stayed active for 20 would be to serve as the Chief Pilot for the Sq, does that not deserve O-5?

Sorry for the barrage of questions, but it seems like the options for those that don’t desire squadron command are to either sign a ridiculous ADSC for the joke of a fly-only track, or get passed over twice and then accept continuation.


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I think the process is absurd.  If you weren't picked up in residence for school, you are already out of the running for SQ/CC... Yet the board will penalize you if you don't have an SQ/CC push line, even though it's a long shot, at best, and in all likelihood a lost cause.

But the Air Force answer is that they are promoting leaders.  You can easily fly the line to 20 years as a major.  If you are making it clear to have no desire to take on additional leadership duties, why would the Air Force give you a higher leadership position?

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17 minutes ago, pawnman said:

I think the process is absurd.  If you weren't picked up in residence for school, you are already out of the running for SQ/CC... Yet the board will penalize you if you don't have an SQ/CC push line, even though it's a long shot, at best, and in all likelihood a lost cause.

But the Air Force answer is that they are promoting leaders.  You can easily fly the line to 20 years as a major.  If you are making it clear to have no desire to take on additional leadership duties, why would the Air Force give you a higher leadership position?

There are over 8,000 Lt Cols in the active duty, they aren't all DOs and CCs.  I'm just trying to illustrate the ridiculous position that guys in my demographic are in, and why we will all be gone within the next year.  We get non-vol'd away from our MWS, do well in RPAs, but fight to get back to our airframe.  Then we either have to choose to chase a promotion or regain proficiency that we lost being gone for 5 years.  I thought the Air Force was in need of pilots, but I know if I stay active duty and choose to not fly a desk then I will not get promoted.  

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21 minutes ago, MooseAg03 said:

There are over 8,000 Lt Cols in the active duty, they aren't all DOs and CCs.  I'm just trying to illustrate the ridiculous position that guys in my demographic are in, and why we will all be gone within the next year.  We get non-vol'd away from our MWS, do well in RPAs, but fight to get back to our airframe.  Then we either have to choose to chase a promotion or regain proficiency that we lost being gone for 5 years.  I thought the Air Force was in need of pilots, but I know if I stay active duty and choose to not fly a desk then I will not get promoted.  

In theory, shouldn’t old guys like you be able to regain proficiency quicker than a new guy? Not hating, genuinely asking.

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5 hours ago, ihtfp06 said:


How dumb are you?

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Who made you BODN/CC today?

I guess you should let a fellow FGO fail when a group exec doesn't know what the hell they doing at all. Nobody should be putting together their ROP. Most people don't have a clue how to put one together. That's the job of an exec or director of staff. Not the job of an eligible. An eligible should be focused on their PRF.

4 hours ago, Champ Kind said:

Did you slide down the pole to the bat cave when you got the call?

He started running into Abobe errors. That can happen when creating a ROP if you don't know what you are doing. My CSS was having the same issue. I told them both to save the file as a different name after you extract the files from PRDA, then "Print to PDF."

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25 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

Who made you BODN/CC today?

I guess you should let a fellow FGO fail when a group exec doesn't know what the hell they doing at all. Nobody should be putting together their ROP. Most people don't have a clue how to put one together. That's the job of an exec or director of staff. Not the job of an eligible. You should be focused on your PRF.

He started running into Abobe errors. That can happen when creating a ROP if you don't know what you are doing. My CSS was having the same issue. I told them both to save the file as a different name after you extract the files from PRDA, then "Print to PDF."

 

621086B0-9874-440A-9803-AED06917C14E.jpeg

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1 hour ago, MooseAg03 said:

My goal if I stayed active for 20 would be to serve as the Chief Pilot for the Sq, does that not deserve O-5?

I'd argue that no, it does not.  A chief pilot can be an O-4 just as well as an O-5.  I'd love to be an O-5 chief pilot and do nothing but fly every day, but there just aren't that many O-5 billets at the squadron level.  No, not every O-5 needs to be a Sq/CC or DO, but I don't think it's unreasonable that every O-5 be expected to be ready/able to command if called upon.

I fall into the category of "didn't-go-to-school, won't-be-a-commander", but I wanted O-5 pay and an O-5 retirement, so I took jobs at the Group and Wing level so that I could be valuable to a commander.  I didn't get a DP, was promoted anyway somehow, so I'll basically finish my career doing....whatever the Wg/CC needs this non-CC to do.  That's my lot in life.  But I've been an active flyer in every assignment, which is better than a lot of people get, so I realize that I've been very fortunate.

I agree that the OPR/PRF process is a pretty poor way to find and promote talent.  The up-or-out system is antiquated and needs to be updated.  But it just simply isn't in the interest of the government to promote a guy to O-5 to do an O-4's job.

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