Drone Pilots: We Don’t Get No Respect

[HU&W]

I hope that was sarcasm, shouldn't rank above the Air Medal IMO. And what is wrong with the Aerial Achievement Medal?

Quoting from wiki: "The decoration is intended to recognize the contributions of aircrew members who would, otherwise, not be qualified for the award of the Air Medal."

Seems about right, I personally think we have too many medals, but if they do want one just rank it right below the AM.

So let me get this straight. You think this medal, which is supposed to be awarded on a very limited and selective basis, for actions that would a approximate a DFC if the person was actually in the aircraft, should rank below the Air Medal (which we all know the criteria for) and the bronze star (deployed MSM). You do realize that the Aerial Achievement Medal, which is already routinely awarded for RPA operations already ranks directly below the Air Medal, right?

Note: I did read that you don't want to add any additional medals, and I agree with that sentiment. I posted somewhere in this convoluted mash of 6 threads on the same topic that I think these outstanding combat actions from remote locations can be appropriately recognized within our existing medal structure. If, however, they insist on creating a 'special' medal for these kind of remote combat achievements, my opinion is that the placement is appropriate. It just needs to be awarded at least as selectively and rarely as a Distinguished Flying Cross.

ETA: I agree with it being right below the Purple Heart, but above DMSM and especially MSM. It is a little strange since it's flight but not anywhere near the airplane, it's combat but dislocated from the combat zone, it's vanilla but at the same time chocolate...

Edited March 17, 2013 by HU&W

[Fuzz]

So let me get this straight. You think this medal, which is supposed to be awarded on a very limited and selective basis, for actions that would a approximate a DFC if the person was actually in the aircraft, should rank below the Air Medal (which we all know the criteria for) and the bronze star (deployed MSM). You do realize that the Aerial Achievement Medal, which is already routinely awarded for RPA operations already ranks directly below the Air Medal, right?

Note: I did read that you don't want to add any additional medals, and I agree with that sentiment. I posted somewhere in this convoluted mash of 6 threads on the same topic that I think these outstanding combat actions from remote locations can be appropriately recognized within our existing medal structure. If, however, they insist on creating a 'special' medal for these kind of remote combat achievements, my opinion is that the placement is appropriate. It just needs to be awarded at least as selectively and rarely as a Distinguished Flying Cross.

I guess I wasn't reading the selectivity part, I just see a DoD push for an RPA medal. You don't foresee the AF lining up 15-20 people as soon as this passes and turning it into a photo op?

On second thought I was looking through the available medals none really fit this area it covers. Most are non-combat or for higher ranking members. So i retract my earlier statement, if it is awarded selectively I personally don't have a problem with where it is placed or if it was moved just below the Purple Heart. I'm in no way looking to shaft our RPA brethren, I think they truly need to be recognized for the work they do.

Edited March 17, 2013 by Scaredfuzz21

[BB Stacker]

You don't foresee the AF lining up 15-20 people as soon as this passes and turning it into a photo op?

I've got it on relatively good authority that the total number of RPA guys the USAF was looking to award the DWM to, going back retroactively to 9/11, was in the single digits.

So yeah, given that DoD has given out more MoH in that same timeframe it seems like the intent was indeed to make it at least as selective as the DFC, if not more so. Also remember that the approving authority for the DWM is the Service Secretary, which is non-waiverable, so it's not like the 432d or whoever could just start handing these out like candy even if they wanted to.

[Fuzz]

I've got it on relatively good authority that the total number of RPA guys the USAF was looking to award the DWM to, going back retroactively to 9/11, was in the single digits.

So yeah, given that DoD has given out more MoH in that same timeframe it seems like the intent was indeed to make it at least as selective as the DFC, if not more so. Also remember that the approving authority for the DWM is the Service Secretary, which is non-waiverable, so it's not like the 432d or whoever could just start handing these out like candy even if they wanted to.

This is true, I guess thinking back across the last 12 years of war there would be definitely some qualified individuals. My cynical side got the best of me.

[BB Stacker]

My cynical side got the best of me.

Not unreasonably so...I was honestly surprised when I heard that single digit number.

[2xAGM114]

I've got it on relatively good authority that the total number of RPA guys the USAF was looking to award the DWM to, going back retroactively to 9/11, was in the single digits.

So yeah, given that DoD has given out more MoH in that same timeframe it seems like the intent was indeed to make it at least as selective as the DFC, if not more so. Also remember that the approving authority for the DWM is the Service Secretary, which is non-waiverable, so it's not like the 432d or whoever could just start handing these out like candy even if they wanted to.

Good. I don't think I'd want one even if they offered it. Seems a bit disrespectful given that our bros are over there risking it daily.

Keep your made-up medal. No thanks, not interested. We showed up for work and did our jobs. Copy.

[Danger41]

We showed up for work and did our jobs. Copy.

Isn't that what about every MOH recipient ever said? Not saying they're equal, but just because you guys are just doing your job doesn't mean it shouldn't be recognized when it's a job well done.

[2xAGM114]

Isn't that what about every MOH recipient ever said? Not saying they're equal, but just because you guys are just doing your job doesn't mean it shouldn't be recognized when it's a job well done.

You may be right. I just have hard time receiving a medal while dudes in OEF are flying at night in the mountains in inclement weather or on the ground hunkered down in a FOB and get shot at daily. Living in a tent, eating at the DFAC and enduring crap conditions for months. The majority of those guys don't get jack.

I'm all for highlighting emerging technologies/capes but don't give made-up B.S. medals to dudes who's highest risk is during the drive from Creech to home.

Edited March 19, 2013 by 2xAGM114

[SurelySerious]

I'm all for highlighting emerging technologies/capes but don't give made-up B.S. medals to dudes who's highest risk is during the drive from Creech to home.

In the last two years the only threat poster I've seen is for the donkeys that walk across 95.

[HU&W]

In the last two years the only threat poster I've seen is for the donkeys that walk across 95.

Those donkeys are vicious. Have you seen the pics of the car they mangled a few months ago?

[Flaco]

Editor's note: Ruben Navarrette Jr. is a CNN contributor and a nationally syndicated columnist with the Washington Post Writers Group. Follow him on Twitter: @rubennavarrette.

(CNN) -- My kids -- 4, 6 and 8 -- love the movie "Wreck It Ralph." It's about a video game character that desperately wants to win a medal.

Meanwhile, at the Pentagon, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel is reviewing a new policy that awards medals to drone operators who might think they're in a video game.

Predatory drones have changed the art of war. As to the question of whether it's been a change for the good or the bad, that coin is still in the air.

This much we know: This is not your father's brand of warfare. That was more up-close and personal. When your dad served in Vietnam -- let alone, when your grandfather fought in World War II -- they took the fight to the enemy, and they had to step into the theater of war to do it.

Soldiers exchanged gunfire. Sometimes, they even engaged in hand-to-hand combat. Fighter pilots were shot down. Those captured by the enemy became prisoners of war.

And in recognition of such acts of valor, the military gives out medals -- the Purple Heart, Bronze Star, Silver Star and Congressional Medal of Honor.

That's how it has always worked. In defense of your country, you put yourself at risk of death or at least great personal harm. And your country shows its gratitude by giving you a medal. When you receive this kind of commendation, you are assured that your service has been exemplary and your sacrifice significant.

Now things are different. Oh, the military still awards plenty of the traditional medals -- the old school way.

Yet under a policy approved by Hagel's predecessor, Leon Panetta, on his way out the door, military officials are also preparing to offer something called "The Distinguished Warfare Medal." It recognizes "extraordinary direct impacts on combat operations." But -- and here's the important part -- it has no "geographic limitation."

So if you kill an insurgent in Afghanistan, you don't really have to be physically present in Afghanistan. You don't even have to be in that part of the world. You can be sipping coffee and checking your e-mail thousands of miles away in a control room in Virginia. You press a few buttons and eliminate a few people. Then, at the end of your shift, you wrap up and drive to your kid's soccer game. It's all in a day's work.

When it was announced that drone operators would now be eligible for medals, lawmakers and veterans groups raised concerns that the medal would eclipse those typically given for bravery in battle. They don't want the medal scrapped. They just want it downgraded and put in its proper place in the pecking order.

Those objections are fair. But concerns like that are not likely to resonate with most Americans who -- let's face it -- can't tell one medal from another.

Critics are right to be angry. But they're upset about the wrong thing. These special medals are really a bad idea, and the reasons for that have less to do with the pecking order among medals and more to do with the detached way that drone operators carry out their remote-control missions.

First, these high-tech cowboys are never in harm's way. You simply can't compare what they do from behind a desk with what others do on the battlefield.

Second, the whole concept is morbid. We know that innocent civilians have died in drone strikes in Pakistan. Sooner or later, the criteria for this medal may become: "How many kills do you have?" The more kills, the more likely you are to get a medal.

Lastly, handing out rewards and incentives for drone strikes only reinforces the fantasy of war as a video game, where you do well when you advance. We have enough of that already among a young generation of soldiers that grew up playing video games. We shouldn't encourage more of it.

Pentagon officials are expected, in the next month, to decide the fate of the medal for drone operators. Heading up the review will be Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Martin Dempsey. He could make the award less prestigious, raise the qualifications, do away with it or just leave things the way they are.

Here's the way forward.

Dempsey shouldn't bother downgrading the medal, so the other medals don't get jealous. He should just recommend that it be scrapped altogether. While there are those who want to turn war into a video game, someone needs to have the decency to pull the plug.

Currently front and center on cnn.com.

http://www.cnn.com/2....html?hpt=hp_c1

I'm all for lowering the precedence of the medal, but it seems to me like this guy has a real hard-on for the RPA guys. "...high-tech cowboys..." "...sipping coffee and checking your e-mail thousands of miles away in a control room in Virginia..." Standard ivory tower bullshit.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Flaco

[Learjetter]

/Flamesuit on

I think the medal, and it's precedence, are fine. It's for extraordinary efforts in modern warfare. Will be tough to qualify for. And it's not just for RPA guys...it's for cyber too. I hope the geek who thought up, programmed, and deployed STUXNET is the first to get one.

Naysayers, hold your froth, go read the whole article about what this new medal is all about, and then lets see what kind of citation gets written for the first few...if its crap, I'll be first on your bandwagon.

[theat6bisasham]

/Flamesuit on

I think the medal, and it's precedence, are fine. It's for extraordinary efforts in modern warfare. Will be tough to qualify for. And it's not just for RPA guys...it's for cyber too. I hope the geek who thought up, programmed, and deployed STUXNET is the first to get one.

Naysayers, hold your froth, go read the whole article about what this new medal is all about, and then lets see what kind of citation gets written for the first few...if its crap, I'll be first on your bandwagon.

Retard, you can't be serious. You think cobbling together some code deserves a medal of that precedence? While we have 18 year old kids coming home without their arms and legs, burned skin melted off their bones...and these video game jockeys are being praised/rewarded above them? Are you f'ing serious dude? I can barely control my rage to throttle you through the monitor..

[Fuzz]

Retard, you can't be serious. You think cobbling together some code deserves a medal of that precedence? While we have 18 year old kids coming home without their arms and legs, burned skin melted off their bones...and these video game jockeys are being praised/rewarded above them? Are you f'ing serious dude? I can barely control my rage to throttle you through the monitor..

2, not against it just not above any valor medal.

Almost as important is this going to become another generals medal? I.e. AMC/CC, 18th AF/CC, fill in the blank job for supporting the war effort?

[nsplayr]

While we have 18 year old kids coming home without their arms and legs, burned skin melted off their bones...and these video game jockeys are being praised/rewarded above them?

You Generals and CMSAFs (mostly) are already "praised/rewarded" above anyone who earns a purple heart or BS w/ V in several different ways. Maybe you think that's f-ed up too...just sayin'

Fact of the matter is there are already three medals other than the DWM ordered higher than the those two that have absolutely nothing to do with risking your life or doing anything heroic at all.

Do I think the order of precedence should be a little different...sure, I'd probably put it below Airman's medal but then again if this is supposed to be given out like a DFC for RPA/cyber then I can see the argument for putting it where it is.

Not gonna "throttle anyone through the monitor" over it though, maybe try one of these

Edited March 20, 2013 by nsplayr

[Fuzz]

You Generals and CMSAFs (mostly) are already "praised/rewarded" above anyone who earns a purple heart or BS w/ V in several different ways. Maybe you think that's f-ed up too...just sayin'

This what I was getting at with the "generals meda"

[Magellan]

Retard, you can't be serious. You think cobbling together some code deserves a medal of that precedence? While we have 18 year old kids coming home without their arms and legs, burned skin melted off their bones...and these video game jockeys are being praised/rewarded above them? Are you f'ing serious dude? I can barely control my rage to throttle you through the monitor..

If that code sets their nuclear capabilities back by a few months/years. HELL YES. How many more Americans will be coming home maimed, in body bags, or not at all if Iran becomes nuclear capable and decides to start using them?

You have the balls to call someone a retard on the internet, and talk about having rage enough to throttle them through a monitor. Wow we got ourselves a tough guy with an over inflated sense of self-righteousness.

I guess you would rather have Iran with nukes, terrorists with safe havens, or downed pilots in countries where UAVs fly captured and paraded through the internet/media than to offend the sensibilities of those that don't understand the importance of the actions this medal would be awarded for.

[Learjetter]

Retard, you can't be serious. You think cobbling together some code deserves a medal of that precedence? While we have 18 year old kids coming home without their arms and legs, burned skin melted off their bones...and these video game jockeys are being praised/rewarded above them? Are you f'ing serious dude? I can barely control my rage to throttle you through the monitor..

Nice reply, tough guy. The nature of how we fight is changing. Deal with it.

Further, you don't seem to understand the order of precedence: MOH (Valor), DSC (valor), DSM (merit), SS (valor), LOM (merit), DFC (valor), Airman's medal (merit), BSM (valor or merit)...etc. Putting the new medal where it is recognizes the unique, significant, and extraordinary contributions of cyber and other new forms of warfare...it has NOTHING to do with 18 yo kids getting hurt.

You think someone getting a BSM with valor is somehow less recognized because your wing commander got a LOM last week?

[matmacwc]

KIO, you both bring up valid points. Putting yourself in harms way should be rewarded higher than anything else....the dude that created the worm that hurt Iran should be awarded something, that was genius.

[Gravedigger]

Stuxnet is a good example, but there are many more directly related to saving lives and ending those of our enemies. Those of you in the know realize that cyber capabilities have directly saved the lives of boots on the ground in a very real way for the last few years. Your anger towards this medal in the name of injured soldiers shows that you have no clue what cyber tactics are being employed in theater today. I'm going to go ahead and say there are many cyber operators that have had more impact on saving a life than most pilots on this board. The same could be said for many RPA crews.

But this medal isn't just for the normal stuff like killing bad guys and saving lives. This is for truly remarkable achievements in those domains. Seeing the things that don't qualify makes me very curious what will actually get the nod.

Now if only there was some sort of medal for satellite ops...ehh, nevermind we don't actually work that hard.

[nrodgsxr]

Isn't that what about every MOH recipient ever said? Not saying they're equal, but just because you guys are just doing your job doesn't mean it shouldn't be recognized when it's a job well done.

We already get recognized just fine with our Aerial Achievement Medals for a job well done. Why do we need anything more??

How about we just recognize our drone operators for a job well done by letting them get out of this shitty weapon system? Sign me up for that.

[wegotoeleven]

We already get recognized just fine with our Aerial Achievement Medals for a job well done. Why do we need anything more??

How about we just recognize our drone operators for a job well done by letting them get out of this shitty weapon system? Sign me up for that.

So what's going to happen when more and more weapons systems get fielded that are unmanned and we have this kind of self loathing attitude which is already so prevalent in the community? Are future Air Force pilots going to take the same pride in their duties as they do now? Don't get me wrong flying is great but so is making an impact. I don't think Army Air Corps pilots had this problem when the BSM was created in response to the Air Medal:

"The fact that the ground troops, Infantry in particular, lead miserable lives of extreme discomfort and are the ones who must close in personal combat with the enemy, makes the maintenance of their morale of great importance. The award of the Air Medal has had an adverse reaction on the ground troops, particularly the Infantry Riflemen who are now suffering the heaviest losses, air or ground, in the Army, and enduring the greatest hardships." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Star_Medal

[Wolf424]

I'm going to go ahead and say there are many cyber operators that have had more impact on saving a life than most pilots on this board.

The pilots here that have saved lives...were given air medals.

I don't think Army Air Corps pilots had this problem when the BSM was created

That's because people in the Army Air Corps had nearly the same mortality rate as those in the regular Army. 2.5% vs 2.8% for the Army (http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p4013coll8/id/130)

Ever read up on how many casualties 8AF had in WWII?

[Gravedigger]

The pilots here that have saved lives...were given air medals.

Right, so you're cool with giving cyber dudes Air Medals then? I'm not arguing medal precedence here, all I'm saying is that there are people outside of the flying world that are making a direct and significant impact on the fight and there was not previously a way to recognize those unique contributions. Nobody is trying to take away or diminish medals awarded to flyers or ground troops. They are simply looking for a way to recognize a change in the way we fight.

[wegotoeleven]

That's because people in the Army Air Corps had nearly the same mortality rate as those in the regular Army. 2.5% vs 2.8% for the Army (http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p4013coll8/id/130)

Ever read up on how many casualties 8AF had in WWII?

I have. But I don't think that risk to self is the only motivator for having pride in your work. Nor do I think RPA self loathing has much to do with not getting shot at, either. If we as an AF can't be proud that this weapons system has had a profound impact on the current enemy then will we ever?