UPT washout

[Hacker]

Originally posted by Trip:

but would like to know what the average washout rate is. I've yet to get a good answer.

This is a repost of a bunch of quotes from numerous sources about the UPT washout rate. As was said previously, the overall SUPT washout rate is something in the 10-20% region and I remember reading in an article that the actual historical UPT washout rate was 14%.

- A 1996 paper by Thomas R. Carretta which considers the validity of the AFOQT, shows that of 14,403 officers who attended UPT between 1981 and 1995, "88.3% of the pilot trainees successfully completed UPT." (meaning an 11.7% washout rate)

- "Over the last several years, UPT attrition rates have been steady at about 22%." (Source: "Group Differences on US Air Force Pilot Selection Tests", Thomas R. Carretta, 1997)

- A report which was looking at the impact of T-3/IFT showed that initial classes going though UPT after the cancallation of the T-3 program (1998 time frame) saw an increase in attrition from 6% to 19%. (Source: "The pre-Pilots Fly Again", Air Force Magazine, June 1999 Vol. 82, No. 6)

- The "US Air Force Pilot Selection and Training Methods" study by Coretta in 1999 said that the washout rate from T-37s alone during the two data periods they used was between 7.8% and 8.8%.

- "Approximately 15-20% of Undergraduate Pilot Training (UPT) students are eliminated each year." (Source: United States Air Force School of Aerospace Medicine (USAFSAM) website)

- FY 88 UPT attrition was 37% (Source: "Air Force Pilot Selection Assessments", Tina Strickland, Air Force Personnel Operations Agency, 2 Nov 04)

- "The academy has a 50-percent lower attrition rate for pilot training than Reserve Officer Training Corps or Officer Training School. During the moratorium, attrition rates at UPT jumped to more than 20 percent at some bases." (Source: 'The Officer' Magazine Sept, 2001 by Jennifer Brugman)

- "Without the benefit of T-3 flight screening, attrition rates for SUPT climbed above 15 percent. The Air Force considers an 8 to 10 percent attrition rate acceptable." (Source: "AF replaces T-3 flying program", Air Force News Service, 13 Oct 1999)

- "General Welser said the Air Force's goal with the expanded IFT was to maintain an acceptable attrition rate. "Over the period of time we've been doing IFT vs. the T-3, we're finding the attrition rates within 1 percent of each other," he said. "7.8 percent for the T-3 and 8.8 percent for IFT." (Source: "AF replaces T-3 flying program", Air Force News Service, 13 Oct 1999)

[Skitzo]

The historic washout rate for columbus is 13%

[ClearedHot]

The washout rates varries for multiple reasons. When I went through UPT they were well over 30%, most of them in the T-37 phase. That being said, my class did not lose ANYONE.

Don't go to UPT with a percentage in your melon. You will have other things to worry about. Go there with a good work/study ethic, a great attitude, and use the desire that go you in the program, to get you to your wings.

[HerkDerka]

CH hit it on the head.

Originally posted by mustfly:

we have made sacrifices to get here. A lot is riding on my earning those wings.

Speaking of midsets, this is not the way to be. It is a universal truth that every day in UPT, no matter how well you are doing, you (and everyone else for that matter) are always three rides away from a progress/elimination check. That's just because of the way the syllabus is built. If you start getting up in arms about how hard you worked to get there and how much is riding on getting your wings you're going to stress yourself out.

Just go in ready to learn. Help your classmates. Ask questions. Soak it up like a sponge. That's all you can do. Everything else will fall into place. Don't stress yourself out, that's the IP's job. Thousands have come before you and thousands will come after you.

About 90% of the people who wash out are either self-eliminated or medical.

HD

[Guest trossetti]

I have read all of your responses and will take it to heart. This is what I am hearing in a nutshell: Don't stress or focus on the negative....Give everything my best effort....Good attitude is key...work and study with my classmates. I appreciate all of your input. I am guard so I am not competing for T-1s vs. T-38s; I just want to do well and graduate with the best training possible. The advice you have given is exactly what I was looking for.

[Guest Sniper5482]

if you still care, as of yesterday, the oss/cc down here at columbus said "on average 12% of you won't graduate"

[B-O-double-Z]

- FY 88 UPT attrition was 37% (Source: "Air Force Pilot Selection Assessments", Tina Strickland, Air Force Personnel Operations Agency, 2 Nov 04)

1988 equals 37% washout rate. That's the year I graduated from UPT. So...all the rest of you bee-otches need to quit your snivelling and crying.

Hell, my kindergarten class had a higher wash-out rate then what we're seeing today. Maybe we need to go back to some tough love.

Who's with me...

[Guest thefranchise]

its hard to figure out a wash rate. some guys quit on their own recog; some get in trouble and get kicked.

if you are retarded run a chance to wash out; if you cant handle stress well you'll def get washed

[Guest b18onboost]

Hello everyone, thank you for reading my post. I would like to know if someone wash out of UPT for academic or health reason, does that person have to pick a different job in the guard or or can he or she leave? The reason I asked is I am interested in the guard and flying is my dream. Although, it would suck if I go through the training and get disqualified or fail a check ride then have to be stuck in the guard doing some desk job rather than flying. If someone can answer this question that would be great. I have use the search function but couldn't come up with anything rock solid.

[hindsight2020]

Generally speaking the answer is no. If you don't complete training you are released as your position was contingent upon successful completion of said training. To wash out academically at UPT, you have to bust three exams and be recommended for disenrollment. I think it is straight up buffonery to fail academically out of UPT but there is a weather test that a lot of people historically fail, and has put a fair share of folks over the magic number and into the elimination process. FWIW that weather test is on it's way out for that particular reason, it was a worthless test anyways. So nowadays it is even more clownish to fail academically.

Medical washout is a more realistic way of disenrolling, but even then they'll work with you. The most common reason is airsickness and it has to be BAD for it to disqualify you. I've seen guys get washed back twice, sent to the voodoo doctor in SPS or RND, come back and puke their way into a freggin jet slot; T-45s for the NAVY but it was at VN in AF training, so the example stands. Others with chronic sinus problems that eventually require surgery get put on a looooong DNIF and still make it. Then again, there are others that do not, but my point is that barring a really bad problem, so long as you pace yourself and give your honest best effort you should be fine with airsickness and/or sinus problems.

Hope that helps.

[Guest LocoF16]

Hello everyone, thank you for reading my post. I would like to know if someone wash out of UPT for academic or health reason, does that person have to pick a different job in the guard or or can he or she leave? The reason I asked is I am interested in the guard and flying is my dream. Although, it would suck if I go through the training and get disqualified or fail a check ride then have to be stuck in the guard doing some desk job rather than flying. If someone can answer this question that would be great. I have use the search function but couldn't come up with anything rock solid.

What a great segue...I know of a few units who just so happen to be hiring this fall...and this is the kind of thing that really boils my blood. I'm gonna make some generalizations here, so if I make you angry...well sorry. I cannot stand the standard professional aviation graduate who just made Captain at one of the regionals, has about 2000 flying hours, and is fishing for a Guard job...and, this dude ABSOLUTELY would not enlist or entertain the idea of doing anything in the military except be a pilot. Now, I'm not saying that these dudes don't make good military pilots because there are plenty of them out there. But I can also tell you that I would rather have the guy that busted his ass in the unit for six years, has all of 100 flying and will continue to serve even if he never gets selected. Take that for what it's worth, the next time someone asks you a question about this topic in an interview.

To answer this guy's question...yes, our unit would let you leave if you didn't want to be there. Our fault for hiring your ass...

[hindsight2020]

Well that's what happens when you generalize, you can over-reach. By your standard, you just called out 75% of the Guard Reserve bubbas out there, and practically all the airline dudes. If it makes you feel better, the above specimen (the regional dude fishing for Guard slots) is the minority in terms of getting hired, these folks are historically behind the hiring power curve because of age mostly, as they spent their 20s toiling at the regionals, in that regard I do agree with you. I have no sympathy for the 29 year olds out there who had the "come to Jesus" moment last week, and decided their regional job, or 80K/yr desk jobs, is unfulfilling and are hustling to get someone to waive their sh$t and get in the door. it pays off to do your homework early about the Guard, and if somebody chose the RJ job because of a bad case of SJS, or you partied too hard during freshman year and last week you realized the benefit of getting the freggin' degree done and over with, then sorry you're turning 30 tomorrow. Now, that said, I'm not about to agree with you that everybody who chose not to be 'just anything' for the sake of being enlisted is somehow lacking in their character. I never considered the AD precisely because I had no interest in the qweep that is involved in being a 'pilot' in the active military, and we forego the salary for that decision. That's what being in the AFRC/ANG is about in the first place! That doesn't mean the work we pursue does not have merit, and in my experience Guard/Reserves bubbas chuckle at anything the AD folks have to say about it, since they know who the disgruntled group is. My heart goes out to the TAMI-21 crowd, but you have to do your homework in this world, I never did a day in ROTC while in college and yet I fully understood how someone can go from signing the pilot commitment to sucking sand in a non-flying billet for years, or ending up permanent partied at the Tyco airplane show. Being a crew chief has nothing to do with the self-valuation of your skills; you set the price, I knew that's what I wanted to do and busted my a$$ to get there, and in proper fairness a lot of crew chiefs got jobs at their units in my time interviewing with said units, and I also watched some of the same get non-recommended from IFF in my time at UPT, which is why I try not to generalize.

Besides, I can point you to a couple million american 20-30 yo who sit at home with their 9-5 jobs and generally stay away from the fight and have no intention of giving an ounce of their time to anything military. They generally feel they're above it, and more commonly, feel economically able to avoid it. That classy bunch are yours and my neighbors btw. We're still here voluntarily, in spite of not !GASP! having been a crew chief before getting hired.

Sure, there are plenty of dudes who hang around the unit when the hours are low, and min run the unit when SWA calls, some are not 100% transparent with their fellow civilian FOs at the civi gig and that's a shame, but that's the nature of the beast. Otherwise ,nominally speaking, most dudes in the Guard have an honest appreciation for the work they do, and not having enlisted to get that job generally doesn't get many people riled up. That at least has been my observation so far.

[Guest columbus2LT]

So, there have been many rumors and talks by the senior officers here that if you wash out of UPT nowadays, you will be booted from the AF and have to pay everything back (scholarship money, stipends.. dunno about your actual pay)

Anyone confirm/deny or have heard anything relevant???

[skinny]

So, there have been many rumors and talks by the senior officers here that if you wash out of UPT nowadays, you will be booted from the AF and have to pay everything back (scholarship money, stipends.. dunno about your actual pay)

Anyone confirm/deny or have heard anything relevant???

Do you have something to be worried about?

Caveat, I'm out of my lane here but I haven't heard anything official. As for the booting out of the AF, with the way manning numbers are, it wouldn't surprise me. Easy kill to get down to the congressionally mandated numbers. I highly doubt they would stick you with a bill for scholarships, stipend, etc. It would be funny as shit if they stuck you with a flight training bill too!

[Guest Rubber_Side_Down]

So, there have been many rumors and talks by the senior officers here that if you wash out of UPT nowadays, you will be booted from the AF and have to pay everything back (scholarship money, stipends.. dunno about your actual pay)

Anyone confirm/deny or have heard anything relevant???

Speaking from those I know who are in UPT or have just finished, washed, etc., almost every class still has 2-3 washouts. If they are early in their career (haven't served the 4-year officer committment,) they are recatagorized into another AFSC. If they have already served a couple of years on active duty, they are given the opportunity to get out of the AF or stay in and recatagorize. They still ask studs to fill out a "dream sheet" of AFSC's that they would like, but needs of the Air Force still reign supreme. The SQ/CC can choose to fight for you, but you have to be a hard-charger in UPT and make a good impression. And even then, they don't always have pull with AFPC.

[Guest columbus2LT]

I see I see. Just now it's a "Balls out" attitude and it's all or nothing. The senior leadership have been saying it's come to this just like the old days, so I was just wondering if anyone's heard the same thing. I know if you wash out usually you get reclassed into something else, but now, who knows! But you would think they would try and keep the pilot selects, you had at least SOMETHING going for you to get to UPT. Who knows.

[C17Driver]

I see I see. Just now it's a "Balls out" attitude and it's all or nothing. The senior leadership have been saying it's come to this just like the old days, so I was just wondering if anyone's heard the same thing. I know if you wash out usually you get reclassed into something else, but now, who knows! But you would think they would try and keep the pilot selects, you had at least SOMETHING going for you to get to UPT. Who knows.

I just sat through a brief last week by AMC/A1. The Air Force is currently over it's authorized end strength and it is expected to get worse over the next couple of years. They directly spoke to those that wash out of IST (Initial Skills Training)...basically, very limited opportunities to cross into a different AFSC. Most likely, the individual will be separated from the AF...needs of the Air Force.

[mp5g]

I just sat through a brief last week by AMC/A1. The Air Force is currently over it's authorized end strength and it is expected to get worse over the next couple of years. They directly spoke to those that wash out of IST (Initial Skills Training)...basically, very limited opportunities to cross into a different AFSC. Most likely, the individual will be separated from the AF...needs of the Air Force.

I second what C17Driver stated. I'm in Tech School currently (trying to get the Pilot Slot soon though), and we have had briefs left and right informing us that if you fail, or washback in training, you are very likely to get completely separated from the Air Force due to a manning swell. I think they are trying to get rid of about 1300 enlisted people, and somewhere along the lines of 4400 Officers (if I remember the articles and memos well enough).

Hope the info is useful.

[flynhigh]

I second what C17Driver stated. I'm in Tech School currently (trying to get the Pilot Slot soon though), and we have had briefs left and right informing us that if you fail, or washback in training, you are very likely to get completely separated from the Air Force due to a manning swell. I think they are trying to get rid of about 1300 enlisted people, and somewhere along the lines of 4400 Officers (if I remember the articles and memos well enough).

Hope the info is useful.

Seems things haven't changed since 2005. Either that or it's cyclical?

[C17Driver]

Seems things haven't changed since 2005. Either that or it's cyclical?

According to the brief, the retention rate in the Air Force has hit a 15 year high which is driving the current Force Shaping...anyone say Economy? While there are critically manned career fields currently, the AF is over it's end strength authorization. Some cross-training would be permitted, but they said it would be limited.

[Wolf424]

Seems things haven't changed since 2005. Either that or it's cyclical?

Standard bell curve my friend...

[slacker]

It's only going to get worse. The deep cuts are coming.

[Guest Dkale]

I second what C17Driver stated. I'm in Tech School currently (trying to get the Pilot Slot soon though), and we have had briefs left and right informing us that if you fail, or washback in training, you are very likely to get completely separated from the Air Force due to a manning swell. I think they are trying to get rid of about 1300 enlisted people, and somewhere along the lines of 4400 Officers (if I remember the articles and memos well enough).

Hope the info is useful.

For the record it is not 4400 Officers. That would greatly hamper the Officer core as a whole as there are only around 65000 total as it is. As of now they are only looking to RIF 41 from the 2006 year group that I know of. I am unsure as to the number for the other years but I know that it doesn't range in the thousands.

[DFRESH]

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2010/04/airforce_drawdown_041210w/

A good portion of the 737 ROTC commissionees are my close friends.

[SPiF]

For the record it is not 4400 Officers. That would greatly hamper the Officer core as a whole as there are only around 65000 total as it is. As of now they are only looking to RIF 41 from the 2006 year group that I know of. I am unsure as to the number for the other years but I know that it doesn't range in the thousands.

Yeah, according to the article on AFtimes, they're looking to get rid of ~1400 officers. I know for FY09 they started offering the affected career fields voluntary options to get out. My career field (33S) has been directed to lose ~975 officers out of 2900. The RIF board is only affecting a few career fields, and only a few year groups. However, for all of the AFSCs on the hit list you have the option of B2G, Palace Chase, ADSC waiver, etc.

Of course, that's for FY10. FY11's force shaping program is supposedly changing and I'm hearing RUMINT that FY12 will have more cuts as well. But, at least my ops tempo is high and I get a lot of tax free (33S). Doesn't hurt that a large chunk of the comm career field sits at home or "deploys in place" i.e. I-NOSC, Lackland weenies, profile queens, etc.

BLUF is work your ass off and don't be a bottom dweller, no matter where you are. I got lucky when I med washed from UPT during the last drawdown and they worked hard to find me another home. Got the job I wanted and the career field (didn't have a lot of options as an engineer) I wanted, 'cause I wasn't a slug.