Air Refueling

[Lawman]

What's all that junk to the right of the gear handle??

Looks alot like my Jett Panel, except I dont have nearly as many buttons.

[TreeA10]

What's all that junk to the right of the gear handle??

That would be the weapons control panel for the 11 different hard points on the jet. You also have a couple switches for fuze options, multiple/single options, a couple of rotary swtiches for release interval and number of weapons, and the switch for the AIM-9. The big red button in middle is the selective jettison button vs the "holy shit" jettison button on the glare shield.

But that is the old cockpit. The C model has more glass and fewer switches but still retains the "holy shit" button on the glare shield.

[Guest Crew Report]

Pardon my ignorance in the fighter side of things...but if you are that worried about passing tail numbers over the radios, why don't you just do it on boom interphone? I know we've had many, many conversations in our jet about not garbaging the radios and passing the tail numbers once you're getting gas.

Not all fighters have Boom Interphone. For example F-15's.

[Hacker]

Serious question: Is there not a placard on the instrument panel that has the 6-digit tail number of the aircraft on it?

Just for S and Gs, try finding and reading that thing while you're also flying in the precontact or contact position. Or at night.

The last thing you want is one of your receivers going skulls-down for 10 seconds or so just to find that placard and decipher what the hell it says.

[Guest whatever]

Just for S and Gs, try finding and reading that thing while you're also flying in the precontact or contact position. Or at night.

The last thing you want is one of your receivers going skulls-down for 10 seconds or so just to find that placard and decipher what the hell it says.

Lord, guys, what is the big deal about saying your tail number? I've done lots of AR's, and it's never been an issue...why is it an issue for some of you?? Do it at check-in, and it's done. Not picking on you, Hacker.

[pawnman]

#1. What AC/EC/MC-130 can AR at 20k?

#2. You COMPLETELY missed the point. I understand the limitations of ATC, the point is don't wait until we ask to coordinate.

Huh? How much AR have you done? The POS boom interphone rarely works to the point of comprehension.

I've never had it NOT work in our jet. In over 100 air refuelings.

Just for S and Gs, try finding and reading that thing while you're also flying in the precontact or contact position. Or at night.

The last thing you want is one of your receivers going skulls-down for 10 seconds or so just to find that placard and decipher what the hell it says.

Or you could jot it down on your kneeboard when you are told what aircraft you're going to at step time. Just saying, the option is there.

[Guest Crew Report]

Just for S and Gs, try finding and reading that thing while you're also flying in the precontact or contact position. Or at night.

The last thing you want is one of your receivers going skulls-down for 10 seconds or so just to find that placard and decipher what the hell it says.

Do you not look at the tail number when you review the forms with the Crew Chief?

Lord, guys, what is the big deal about saying your tail number? I've done lots of AR's, and it's never been an issue...why is it an issue for some of you?? Do it at check-in, and it's done. Not picking on you, Hacker.

:beer:

[contraildash]

Air Refueling? That sounds novel.

How about standing around in 'sideways rain' refueling?

Or freezing my nuts off in Poland refueling?

Then there's always smelly Arab guy spraying JetA all over you and the jet refueling...

[BlackKnight]

Could we PLEASE stop the tail number discussion? Holy crap.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

ok, so here's a 100% no bullshit story of tanker buffoonery from just last night.

So we had a dedicated buddy 135 out of here last night. Generally in such situations we'll make contact over our ops freq to ensure both jets are in the green prior to engine start, and again prior to taxi. So we try to call them repeatedly, with no answer. We give up and start and taxi based on our timing. These idiots finally call us back as we're taxiing to tell us they had ALREADY taken off about 20 minutes prior! WTF, but no big deal. They pressed up to Iraq and were holding at the CP, so instead of an enroute RV, it's going to be a PP. These idiots fucked up the PP by the numbers. We're tracking down the IP/CP line on speed, see them on TCAS and all is well... until they started the turn WAAAY late. Instead of rolling out on the line 1-3 miles ahead, they ended up BEHIND us by a good 1-2 miles (after we called overrun about 1/4 way through their turn and slowed to 245 or so from our schedule speed of 310). Not only did they end up behind us, but these clowns overshot the IP/CP line by about 3 miles! We've still got them on TCAS watching them correct to the line, they pass overhead about the same time they cross the line... about 45 degrees off the IP/CP line heading! So they overshot to the OTHER side by about 2-3 miles. Just about as soon as we're behind their 3/9 line the boom clears me astern, as the tanker is rolling to another 45 degree heading correction. YGBFSM! They may not have realized that a 707 can't rejoin like an F-15. As they go sailing through the line AGAIN I make a bid to follow them. I caught up to them displaced about 2 miles from the line and follow them as they continue to S turn to eventually settle on the line. Closing the distance was actually pretty easy since I could lead them the whole time. That came in handy seeing how they still had their speed set to the overrun speed. They didn't realize this till I called them out with a subtle "say airspeed" call from about .5 miles. The last .5 went really quick after they apparently ripped all four to idle to get back on speed. We finally get in contact and the whole time it's like they're trying to shake us with rapid S turns left and right to about 10 degrees of bank... not a huge deal except they were rolling as fast as their autopilot turn knob would turn.

We got the gas and hauled ass, glad to be done with those idiots. I hope I never have to AR with them again, that's for sure.

[bfargin]

We got the gas and hauled ass, glad to be done with those idiots. I hope I never have to AR with them again, that's for sure.

In all fairness it wasn't our fault, they took our Nav off of the flight right before takeoff. We didn't know what we were doing.

[Hacker]

Do you not look at the tail number when you review the forms with the Crew Chief?

Yeah, I'm sure that will remain on the forefront of my thoughts throughout the tactical portion of the sortie so that I'll be able to recall it 3 hours later when I'm precontact. I mean, it's not like I actually have anything else of importance to think about during that time.

[Whitman]

Yeah, I'm sure that will remain on the forefront of my thoughts throughout the tactical portion of the sortie so that I'll be able to recall it 3 hours later when I'm precontact. I mean, it's not like I actually have anything else of importance to think about during that time.

I'm with Hacker on this one. Jihad on ops limits too while we're at it.

[bfargin]

Actually while I find the thread slightly amusing in all reality it is the tanker's job to make refueling as effortless as possible. That is our entire job (-135 driver was my last job in the AF), we should know it better and be better at it than anybody else. I do understand it takes 2 to tango but we should make it as easy on the receiver as possible. We should know the regs, and in so doing, be able to make decisions based on requests/circumstances to get the fuel to the receiver however we can (as long as it's safe). And, yeah, I know most of you do.

[Guest Crew Report]

ok, so here's a 100% no bullshit story of tanker buffoonery from just last night.

So we had a dedicated buddy 135 out of here last night. Generally in such situations we'll make contact over our ops freq to ensure both jets are in the green prior to engine start, and again prior to taxi. So we try to call them repeatedly, with no answer. We give up and start and taxi based on our timing. These idiots finally call us back as we're taxiing to tell us they had ALREADY taken off about 20 minutes prior! WTF, but no big deal. They pressed up to Iraq and were holding at the CP, so instead of an enroute RV, it's going to be a PP. These idiots fucked up the PP by the numbers. We're tracking down the IP/CP line on speed, see them on TCAS and all is well... until they started the turn WAAAY late. Instead of rolling out on the line 1-3 miles ahead, they ended up BEHIND us by a good 1-2 miles (after we called overrun about 1/4 way through their turn and slowed to 245 or so from our schedule speed of 310). Not only did they end up behind us, but these clowns overshot the IP/CP line by about 3 miles! We've still got them on TCAS watching them correct to the line, they pass overhead about the same time they cross the line... about 45 degrees off the IP/CP line heading! So they overshot to the OTHER side by about 2-3 miles. Just about as soon as we're behind their 3/9 line the boom clears me astern, as the tanker is rolling to another 45 degree heading correction. YGBFSM! They may not have realized that a 707 can't rejoin like an F-15. As they go sailing through the line AGAIN I make a bid to follow them. I caught up to them displaced about 2 miles from the line and follow them as they continue to S turn to eventually settle on the line. Closing the distance was actually pretty easy since I could lead them the whole time. That came in handy seeing how they still had their speed set to the overrun speed. They didn't realize this till I called them out with a subtle "say airspeed" call from about .5 miles. The last .5 went really quick after they apparently ripped all four to idle to get back on speed. We finally get in contact and the whole time it's like they're trying to shake us with rapid S turns left and right to about 10 degrees of bank... not a huge deal except they were rolling as fast as their autopilot turn knob would turn.

We got the gas and hauled ass, glad to be done with those idiots. I hope I never have to AR with them again, that's for sure.

Don't AR with Deid tankers. Problem solved.

Yeah, I'm sure that will remain on the forefront of my thoughts throughout the tactical portion of the sortie so that I'll be able to recall it 3 hours later when I'm precontact. I mean, it's not like I actually have anything else of importance to think about during that time.

Weird, the LN guys I've refueled daily for the past 60+ days were able to remember that information while keeping their "thoughts throughout the tactical portions of their sortie." I guess you're in the minority.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Crew Report

[Hacker]

Weird, the LN guys I've refueled daily for the past 60+ days were able to remember that information while keeping their "thoughts throughout the tactical portions of their sortie." I guess you're in the minority.

Uh huh. There's also a WSO in the jet who is not actively participating with flying formation who can look at the placard.

Thanks for playing, though.

[Guest whatever]

Uh huh. There's also a WSO in the jet who is not actively participating with flying formation who can look at the placard.

Thanks for playing, though.

Hacker,

Does the WSO do most of the writing in a CAS scenario, or do the two share the responsibility?

[Guest]

Passing the tail number is a nonsense requirement that creates extra radio buffoonery. The tanker guys are in the best position to change the process since it is their bullshit requirement.

You've all heard that fighter guys don't like doing it. One of you herbivores could be a hero if you changed the process. Instead you stay fixated on the fact that "passing tail numbers is procedure and how hard can it be anyway" while ignoring the opportunity to improve it.

Not sure why the tanker guys can't get that.

[Vertigo]

Passing the tail number is a nonsense requirement that creates extra radio buffoonery. The tanker guys are in the best position to change the process since it is their bullshit requirement.

You've all heard that fighter guys don't like doing it. One of you herbivores could be a hero if you changed the process. Instead you stay fixated on the fact that "passing tail numbers is procedure and how hard can it be anyway" while ignoring the opportunity to improve it.

Not sure why the tanker guys can't get that.

I think they get that, but realize it can't change with the snap of their fingers, so in the interim they ask to please pass your tail number.

[Hacker]

Hacker,

Does the WSO do most of the writing in a CAS scenario, or do the two share the responsibility?

Both copy the 9-lines and coordinates.

The lead WSO is the primary talker with the JTAC.

[JP84U2]

Passing the tail number is a nonsense requirement that creates extra radio buffoonery. The tanker guys are in the best position to change the process since it is their bullshit requirement.

You've all heard that fighter guys don't like doing it. One of you herbivores could be a hero if you changed the process. Instead you stay fixated on the fact that "passing tail numbers is procedure and how hard can it be anyway" while ignoring the opportunity to improve it.

Not sure why the tanker guys can't get that.

Dude,

First off...it is not our "bullshit requirement", every piece of iron in the inventory (AF, Army, Marines, Navy, Coast Guard) has a number that the fuel gets charged to. Do you think when your crew chief fuels your jet on your ramp that he doesn't have to account for the fuel just as we do? We could personally give a fat rats ass which tail number you are flying, but we are held accountable to make sure the paperwork gets done. In fact, when the Boom who gives you (and maybe a dozen other guys)gas over Azcrackistan finally gets back to the Deid after his 10 hour sortie, processes back through customs, turns in the secrets and all the other crap, he has to look your tail number up in a giant spreadsheet to get the FP number, unit, base and state and then type all that shit into what could be the most idotic and frustrating computer program ever. How about you just shut up and color and pass your tail number like every other guy since the beginning of air refueling?

HUMPS

[Alpharatz]

I once observed an herbivore outrunning a Thunderbolt II.....Can't name the species for obvious reasons.

"I'd like you guys to meet my new girlfriend Penicilina"

[stick]

Holy sh!t.

From reading this thread, you'd think tankers and receivers aren't on the same team and don't have the same fu*king goal.

1st point: If 95% of the time you get your gas with no issues, don't reinforce your stereotype/prejudice with the 5% of the time things get dorked up. Everyone makes mistakes.

2nd point: This tanker stuff should be easy, so why isn't it? Everyone whose been in the AF for a promotion or two knows that if there is a process that could be simple, the process is made more complicated until the point where someone starts complaining.

However, sometimes the added layer of work makes sense in the big picture. Unfortunately for the fighters who choose the tail number discussion as their pet peeve and/or battle to pick with the tanker, I think this process makes sense in the big picture. Which leads me to...

3rd point: I don't want to see this spit wad match of a thread continue any more than the next person. Though I know I won't have the last say, I'll attempt to clear up at least the official requirements part. Rainman, I have a huge amount of respect for your opinion from reading this board for years, but I think this accounting process might be in stone. From reading this part of the 135v3, it seems like the process of charging fuel to units had been murky and abused at some point, so the tail number accountability was established to create a crystal clear transaction.

8.6.3.5. DD Form 791 , DoD In-Flight Issue Log, is used to log in-flight offload of fuel.

Use eight digit tail numbers for the tanker and receivers. For Navy and Marine receivers,

use six digit bureau number. Log and place a copy inside the AF Form 664 and turn it in

IAW local procedures.

8.6.3.5.1. Boom operators will:

8.6.3.5.1.1. <snip>

8.6.3.5.1.2. Prior to fuel offload, get receiver aircraft’s tail number (use interplane radio,

boom interphone, or visually if open communication would compromise the mission during

clandestine or covert operations or threaten safety of flight). When refueling the same

receiver multiple times on a single mission, enter a separate line on the DD791 for each

AR. NOTE: EMCON 2 or 3 training does not disqualify inter-plane radio to obtain or verify

AR data. DO NOT use inter-plane radios during actual EMCON 2, 3, or 4 to obtain or

verify AR data unless specifically authorized by the mission directive. Consider HAVE

QUICK II and secure voice if visual conditions make the tail number too difficult to read.

8.6.3.5.1.3. Do not use “known/suspected” aircraft serial number that belongs to unit

being fueled, but not necessarily the actual aircraft getting fuel. Auditors compare receiver

unit aircraft serial numbers with fuel load reports at home station. If “known/suspected”

aircraft tail number billed is incorrect (down for maintenance/unable to fly), the auditor

will reject the fuel bill and the tanker unit is liable for the cost of the fuel transferred.

[magnetfreezer]

8.6.3.5.1. Boom operators will:

8.6.3.5.1.1. <snip>

8.6.3.5.1.2. Prior to fuel offload, get receiver aircraft’s tail number (use interplane radio,

boom interphone, or visually if open communication would compromise the mission during

clandestine or covert operations or threaten safety of flight). When refueling the same

receiver multiple times on a single mission, enter a separate line on the DD791 for each

AR. NOTE: EMCON 2 or 3 training does not disqualify inter-plane radio to obtain or verify

AR data. DO NOT use inter-plane radios during actual EMCON 2, 3, or 4 to obtain or

verify AR data unless specifically authorized by the mission directive. Consider HAVE

QUICK II and secure voice if visual conditions make the tail number too difficult to read.

8.6.3.5.1.3. Do not use “known/suspected” aircraft serial number that belongs to unit

being fueled, but not necessarily the actual aircraft getting fuel. Auditors compare receiver

unit aircraft serial numbers with fuel load reports at home station. If “known/suspected”

aircraft tail number billed is incorrect (down for maintenance/unable to fly), the auditor

will reject the fuel bill and the tanker unit is liable for the cost of the fuel transferred.

Not a tanker guy, but would some similar process to this satisfy both parties (enabling change to 8.6.3.5.1.2):

1. Boom writes down callsign and amount of fuel, etc transferred

2. ARMS or whoever maintains your refueling database periodically sends a spreadsheet to the receiver ARMS folks with callsigns/dates/etc.

3. Receiver ARMS retrieves tail #s for appropriate sorties and emails back to tanker guys

4. Receivers are happy since they don't have to pass tail numbers in the clear/go skulls down at night, bean counters are happy since they have their tail numbers, and tanker guys are happy since they didn't get billed for the fuel.

[Guest]

I think they get that, but realize it can't change with the snap of their fingers, so in the interim they ask to please pass your tail number.

Read the responses to what I posted and you might see they actually don't get it.

As for not being able to change it with a snap of the fingers, I get that.

Just a tip, bitching about how you expect others to actively try to make your life easier will most likely not result in you getting what you want. But if your goal is just to have something to bitch about, I suppose your present strategy works.

Uh, ###### you. I'm not bitching about it. I'm saying take a look at what everyone agrees is a bullshit process and work to change it..

Not a tanker guy, but would some similar process to this satisfy both parties (enabling change to 8.6.3.5.1.2):

1. Boom writes down callsign and amount of fuel, etc transferred

2. ARMS or whoever maintains your refueling database periodically sends a spreadsheet to the receiver ARMS folks with callsigns/dates/etc.

3. Receiver ARMS retrieves tail #s for appropriate sorties and emails back to tanker guys

4. Receivers are happy since they don't have to pass tail numbers in the clear/go skulls down at night, bean counters are happy since they have their tail numbers, and tanker guys are happy since they didn't get billed for the fuel.

Now we're talkin'!

8.6.3.5.1.3. Do not use “known/suspected” aircraft serial number that belongs to unit

being fueled, but not necessarily the actual aircraft getting fuel. Auditors compare receiver

unit aircraft serial numbers with fuel load reports at home station. If “known/suspected”

aircraft tail number billed is incorrect (down for maintenance/unable to fly), the auditor

will reject the fuel bill and the tanker unit is liable for the cost of the fuel transferred.

Oops. Sorry guys but I have lied my ass off approx 69,000 times about my tail number since I always just made one up that sounded good. I guess you ate those bills.

I once observed an herbivore outrunning a Thunderbolt II.....Can't name the species for obvious reasons.

Is there a species of herbivore that cannot outrun an A-10?