The other patches are all up exec-ing at the group and wing.    I've been TDY to three wings this year and all of them had a patch as the wing exec.   

The other patches are all up exec-ing at the group and wing.    I've been TDY to three wings this year and all of them had a patch as the wing exec.   

How does that qualify as their required tiered jobs? What a waste!

13 minutes ago, Skitzo said:

 

How does that qualify as their required tiered jobs? What a waste!

 

Definitely doesn’t, but MAJCOM/A3 is apparently more worried about career progression on paper.

7 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

True story, although when you can’t do a steep turn without stalling because decreasing UPT/FTU syllabus gives us dudes without the simple things like a crosscheck...maybe tactics are a bridge too far. 

 

Anecdote: our weapons shop are all brand new LTs aside from the patch(es). Keeps it interesting. 

Hell, at least those LTs are learning something.

8 hours ago, snoopyeast said:

Well, there are still ADOs.   They're just mid level captains nowadays.  Plus the SQ execs are Lts, so no need to study the jet or tactics. 

For the love of god, can the CSAF just come out and straight up ban the use of a pilot as an executive officer and call it fraud, waste and abuse?  Go back to having MPF officers sit exec.  Heck they would do a better job.  

49 minutes ago, dream big said:

 Go back to having MPF officers sit exec.  Heck they would do a better job.  

They were all RIF'd 6-9 years ago. True story...our section commander gave the AF the middle finger and became an armor officer in the Army...it worked out pretty well for him.

54 minutes ago, dream big said:

For the love of god, can the CSAF just come out and straight up ban the use of a pilot as an executive officer and call it fraud, waste and abuse?  Go back to having MPF officers sit exec.  Heck they would do a better job.  

I have a buddy at AFPC. Good luck finding officers or enlisted to do anything. We are short on officers period. Maintenance, cyber,  intel, medical, and the list goes on and on of career field shortages for officers. Why are we short? 70% of men and women ages 17-24 are ineligible to join right now because: out of shape; have medical issues; an arrest record; can't pass fitness test; do drugs; just can't pass the required aptitude tests; keep forcing the square peg into the round hole.

Edited July 6, 20187 yr by HarleyQuinn

10 hours ago, Skitzo said:

How does that qualify as their required tiered jobs? What a waste!

 

"WIC is a leadership schoolhouse disguised as a tactics course."

While I agree with that statement, Big Blue, according to how they promote and develop people, appears to believe that leaders come from Exec offices, not cockpits.  Therefore, your best tactical leadership should go to exec offices in order to get promoted.

Epic. Failure.

WIC grads in exec positions is definitely NOT the standard in the CAF. Seems like a phenomenon only in the MAF.

 

Could it possibly be true that the old FWIC concept was unnecessarily watered-down by the “everyone gets a trophy” mentality when operators of every MDS got a seat at the table?

 

I mean, if your wing/MDS can spare target arms for non-W prefix work, doesn’t that make them superfluous?

 

(Yeah yeah, burn the witch...I know...)

 

It's not unheard of in Air Force Global Suck Command. One of my 16A bros is wing exec at KBAD right now. During my 6 years at Minot I saw it happen at least once, and I know another BUFF patch that volunteered to deploy from a Barksdale flying staff gig to the OIR MPC at the Deid in support of one of the Minot squadrons (at a time our OSS was struggling to find bodies). Dude's leadership told him "You can't go to be on the MPC, but you can go to be the 379th wing exec." 

37 minutes ago, Ram said:

I mean, if your wing/MDS can spare target arms for non-W prefix work, doesn’t that make them superfluous?

That's the problem.  We can't spare them.  Strat-air focused leadership in the MAF seems to often under-appreciate the product they are getting in C-130 and C-17 WOs. 

Of course, none of us know what KC-135 patches do though, so you've got me there.

24 minutes ago, FourFans130 said:

Of course, none of us know what KC-135 patches do though, so you've got me there.

They’re Wing and GO execs too...I know of at least 3. They also teach VTRAT, so there’s that... 

9 hours ago, HarleyQuinn said:

I have a buddy at AFPC. Good luck finding officers or enlisted to do anything. We are short on officers period. Maintenance, cyber,  intel, medical, and the list goes on and on of career field shortages for officers. Why are we short? 70% of men and women ages 17-24 are ineligible to join right now because: out of shape; have medical issues; an arrest record; can't pass fitness test; do drugs; just can't pass the required aptitude tests; keep forcing the square peg into the round hole.

Don't forget that we forced a bunch of officers and enlisted out less than 5 years ago, and the younger dudes who watched that happen don't have a lot of faith the AF won't do it again.

2 hours ago, Ram said:

WIC grads in exec positions is definitely NOT the standard in the CAF. Seems like a phenomenon only in the MAF.

 

Could it possibly be true that the old FWIC concept was unnecessarily watered-down by the “everyone gets a trophy” mentality when operators of every MDS got a seat at the table?

 

I mean, if your wing/MDS can spare target arms for non-W prefix work, doesn’t that make them superfluous?

 

(Yeah yeah, burn the witch...I know...)

 

Interesting, because it seemed to be the standard in the BONE community for a while. I've seen both OG and WG execs wearing the WIC patch.

22 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Don't forget that we forced a bunch of officers and enlisted out less than 5 years ago, and the younger dudes who watched that happen don't have a lot of faith the AF won't do it again.

SHACK!

3 hours ago, Ram said:

WIC grads in exec positions is definitely NOT the standard in the CAF. Seems like a phenomenon only in the MAF.

 

Could it possibly be true that the old FWIC concept was unnecessarily watered-down by the “everyone gets a trophy” mentality when operators of every MDS got a seat at the table?

 

I mean, if your wing/MDS can spare target arms for non-W prefix work, doesn’t that make them superfluous?

 

(Yeah yeah, burn the witch...I know...)

 

The MAF would get by OK without patches, but I'd rather have a tanker guy planning tanker stuff than having the fighter patch doing it.  It's just that AMC values queep above everything else, and they take the most capable bodies, and toss them at whatever  the senior leaders view as important.  Hence, the patch turning into an OPR/PRF monkey at the wing. 

22 minutes ago, NKAWTG said:

The MAF would get by OK without patches, but I'd rather have a tanker guy planning tanker stuff than having the fighter patch doing it.  It's just that AMC values queep above everything else, and they take the most capable bodies, and toss them at whatever  the senior leaders view as important.  Hence, the patch turning into an OPR/PRF monkey at the wing. 

NKAWTG beat me to it.  Lots to say on this topic, but that sums it up:  the CAF and MAF appear to value different things.  

Ram, I appreciate the dialog regarding patch necessity in the MAF, but I think that they do play an important role.  Their role would be even more important if the MAF used them to their full capacity, but because of misplaced values, we have what we have now.  The issue that the MAF is facing is that I truly don't think they know what to do with WIC guys.  MAF upper management has been told by their colleagues at the CAF that patches should be treated as shiny pennies.  So, the MAF has done the only thing they know how to do with shiny pennies:  make them execs so that they are "broadened" as to what happens outside of the squadron and in the wings that they will supposedly command one day.  Probably well-intentioned, but completely antithetical to what the Weapons School is supposed to produce.  MAF management can't fathom bypassing developmental opportunities by leaving a shiny penny "down in the squadron" to build, teach, lead, and make the unit more effective in its primary (non-queen) mission.  

And while I realize that patches in exec-type roles are non-standard in the CAF, I can say firsthand that I saw a patch flyer O-4 carrying Gen Goldfein's hat around on a base visit.  

4 hours ago, Ram said:

WIC grads in exec positions is definitely NOT the standard in the CAF. Seems like a phenomenon only in the MAF.

 

Could it possibly be true that the old FWIC concept was unnecessarily watered-down by the “everyone gets a trophy” mentality when operators of every MDS got a seat at the table?

 

I mean, if your wing/MDS can spare target arms for non-W prefix work, doesn’t that make them superfluous?

 

(Yeah yeah, burn the witch...I know...)

 

No, at least in the 130 world patches do some great work and training.  The problem is a lot of our 05-06 leadership are careerist politicians who don’t understand how to utilize the patches.  I have three examples now of patches sitting in the exec offices while the tactics shop is burning to the ground. 

4 hours ago, pawnman said:

Interesting, because it seemed to be the standard in the BONE community for a while. I've seen both OG and WG execs wearing the WIC patch.

BUFF similar. 

6 hours ago, FourFans130 said:

Of course, none of us know what KC-135 patches do though

They're the ones that try to load HAVE-QUICK II for you at red flag....

Say it to yourself outloud: tactical expert who went to elite tactical school working as a secretary focused on OPR bullets, formatting, and PowerPoints  

If it sounds stupid to say it’s probably fucking stupid. Don’t over complicate it. 

Someone needs to break the mold. 

So did Duck get passed over or what? It's been f'ing years of this shit and now mums the word? My faith in the US Air Force hinges on this answer. ~Bendy

So did Duck get passed over or what? It's been f'ing years of this shit and now mums the word? My faith in the US Air Force hinges on this answer. ~Bendy

Check back a couple of pages. He was successful in his escape plans.

He gone

Yeah, I was one of like 14 APZ guys passed over. It’s been busy around here doing TAPs and interviews for jobs, etc... Thanks for all the support throughout the years bros!