TarHeelPilot Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 How long has ACP been $25K, since the mid 90s? Base pay for an O-4 with 10 years of service in 1995 was $3432. Today it is $6593. ACP needs to increase commensurate with inflation, or it's not an effective tool--particularly with airline hiring. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFM this Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 (edited) I would second that, but someone already beat me to it. What?!? C'mon, the bonus means providing an extremely important measure of stability in the personnel planning process for the AF. Think about it guys--if you were a CEO of a private company & could lock down your absolute best-of-the-best, top talent for 5-9 years for a mere $25K/year, you would do it IN A HEARTBEAT. That's a ridiculously good return on investment. If you end up cutting some later on because you kept a few too many, who really cares? You (the CEO) bought the right to be able to control the destiny of your workforce, just as they signed away their right to control their destiny...again, for a mere $25K/yr. No, my friend, the bonus will not be going away for pilots. It's way, WAY too cheap of a price for guaranteed, long-term control of highly skilled assets. Now, if you want to discuss whether pilots should take the bonus...that's an entirely different philosophical discussion. It really blows my mind that so many actually do take the bonus. I knew one guy that couldn't catch a break when it came to assignments. Then he passed on the bonus, and started sinking three pointers every vml. Edited January 25, 2014 by BFM this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hindsight2020 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 It really blows my mind that so many actually do take the bonus. Honestly? That's easy. i) They live way the fuck above their means (their wives demand it). ii) They were gonna attempt to stay in anyways (and don't kid yourself, that's a mere corollary of i ). Over at the other airline forum there's a couple of retired mobility O-5 bitching about not being able to make ends meet on retired mil pay and regional FO pay. One went so far to admit he needed an additional 5K above his retired pay (4K) in order to make black for his particular family situation. 9K to cover the expenditures column of the ledger, every month. LOL. You tell me why people take such a piddly bonus to lose all control. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsplayr Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 9K to cover the expenditures column of the ledger, every month. LOL. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/22/getting-rich-from-zero-to-hero-in-one-blog-post/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitteEinBit Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I understand the Air Force wants to have "an extremely important measure of stability in the personnel planning process," but guess what? So does your workforce. We've been talking about "stability" with personnel cuts since 2009...5 years later we are still making personnel cuts. I got it...we are in a fiscal crisis, no one saw these levels of cuts coming. But if you want stability, give stability. Even CEOs of companies realize that...especially when they want to retain the best of their best. What?!? C'mon, the bonus means providing an extremely important measure of stability in the personnel planning process for the AF. Think about it guys--if you were a CEO of a private company & could lock down your absolute best-of-the-best, top talent for 5-9 years for a mere $25K/year, you would do it IN A HEARTBEAT. That's a ridiculously good return on investment. If you end up cutting some later on because you kept a few too many, who really cares? You (the CEO) bought the right to be able to control the destiny of your workforce, just as they signed away their right to control their destiny...again, for a mere $25K/yr. No, my friend, the bonus will not be going away for pilots. It's way, WAY too cheap of a price for guaranteed, long-term control of highly skilled assets. Now, if you want to discuss whether pilots should take the bonus...that's an entirely different philosophical discussion. That bold quote is part of the reason why you have a stability problem...you might not care, but people care. The pilots you're trying to retain (for the most part) know you don't care about anything other than power point slides that show we are where some number-crunching bean counter says we're supposed to be. But you'd better start caring about how many people you cut, and more importantly how you cut them. Don't think people are stupid and forgetful and don't remember the same shit that came with the last VSP, or RIF or non-continuation board. Big Blue had better start to at least act like they care...don't take my word for it though. I don't have the 'big picture' obviously. What?!? C'mon, the bonus means providing an extremely important measure of stability in the personnel planning process for the AF....again, for a mere $25K/yr. Yes, a mere $25k/yr. Watch what you say...those pilots you're trying to retain are starting to realize it is "a mere $25k/yr" and probably not worth it anymore...it is why we are still having this converation. If the AF doesn't feel "it has to offer a bonus" then why are they offering a bonus. I'd love to see someone explain that one to a congressional committee... BT 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KWings06j Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 (edited) http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/22/getting-rich-from-zero-to-hero-in-one-blog-post/ Interesting site. Found this little gem on it. From a post "50 Jobs over $50k without a degree" http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/05/50-jobs-over-50000-without-a-degree-part-2/ 50: The Military - formerly a mysterious field to me, I learned more about this when living in Hawaii last winter, where many high incomes are derived from the large US bases in the area. Far from the usual stereotype of a bunch of musclebound guys with guns, the US military is in reality just the world’s largest high-tech company. Most of the jobs are related to circulating enormous amounts of technology, people, information, and equipment around the world. So there is far more engineering and office work than there is shooting and jet piloting. Pay and benefits are generous, especially if you can get assigned to a post far away from where you originally lived, thus scoring a tax-free housing allowance. Or get the fully funded university education that comes as part of some contracts. And that’s before we even get to the part where you work for 20 years and then qualify for a plentiful pension and free healthcare for life afterwards. It’s not easy and there is the chance of danger, but it is a real career. Edited January 25, 2014 by KWings06j Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe1234 Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Yes, a mere $25k/yr. Watch what you say...those pilots you're trying to retain are starting to realize it is "a mere $25k/yr" and probably not worth it anymore...it is why we are still having this converation. BT I doubt that. Air Force pilots have proven time and again that they will take a monumental amount of shit from the Air Force before caving. The military has three things going for it: 1) the patriotism/honor thing with people who wrap themselves in the flag or get most of their sense of purpose from their military service. after all, you should just play the game, make rank, and then change things. those people who get out are quitters, and you're not a quitter. you're an honorable Air Force officer and high flying aviator with the ability to make a lasting impact on the world! 2) the segregation of military people from the outside world -- military people are surrounded by other military people constantly, which breeds a risk averse attitude when it comes to changing careers. if all your college buddies, friends, wife's friends, and kid's friends are in the military cocoon, then you naturally start to think of the mil world/civ world as "us" and "them". a lot of people are scared of leaving their tribe and becoming one of "them". better the devil you know, am I right? 3) a lot of people seem to have it in their head that NOT getting a retirement check will leave you destitute forever. that, if you do 12 years, then pack it in for the long haul because you're over halfway there! so what if you get a couple of shitty assignments, 365s or jobs that you hate doing. you dont want to waste all that time you put in when that check is yours for the taking, you just need to endure the pain of it all! Anyway, that's my personal theory as to why AF pilots will eat shit from big blue and then ask for seconds. Most guys will bitch constantly about how everyone is leaving, and they're totally gonna vote with their feet too, and Big Blue will be sorry they lost so much amazing talent, hoping that someone important notices and gives a concession or two. Pilots keep hoping other guys get out, so they can stay and reap the benefits of things changing for the better. But the ACP take rate stays high, the gambit fails, and the pilots go back to eating shit again. All the while, General Chang smirks smugly, his predictions affirmed, as he updates the spreadsheets from red to green for the next A1 staff briefing. 18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Joe, that is perhaps the most intelligent post you have ever shared with this community. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Hungus Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Completely agree, although I really think this will start to change when the younger generations (2003+ year groups) who've known nothing but Big Blue stupidity, endless deployments, 365s, UAVs, MC-12s, fraud/waste/abuse masters degrees, etc start hitting the end of their commitments. We will see. It's funny to me how cheap it is for the AF to do this. The $25k/year bonus is the same as circa 1999. To match for inflation, the bonus would have to be just under $35k/year in 2014 dollars to match the same purchasing power. Considering that the bonus comes out to around $18k/year after taxes, that's a damn good bargain the AF is getting for people to sign away control of their lives. That's not at all worth it in my opinion, but to each their own, and I can't blame the AF for taking advantage of people's risk aversion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Bait & switch? Really? I don't think so. There's zero mystery when you sign on the dotted line that you lose all control. Zero. Say this with me: "I do not have to take the bonus. I do not have to take the bonus. I do not have to take the bonus." No slavery here. Would I take the bonus? Heck yes! But I recognize that a personal price is paid if I do. I trade power for money, just like 60-70% choose to do every year. Trust me, personnelists never have and never will make promises to get you to sign. We don't need to, and besides, it's unethical. Your complaints above fall on deaf ears. I'm sure I've said it before, but I think it bears repeating...maybe you and your buddies at AFPC should ask yourselves why you have to pay and extra $125K in bonuses to keep people in a job that 90% of Americans would pay to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitteEinBit Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 words Dude, you are spot on as to how it has been, but I think times are changing. That's why I said dudes are starting to realize that $25k just isn't what it used to be given the current climate and uncertainty in todays service. Your post is spot on as it was before the Air Force decided to non-continue dudes still on the bonus back in 2011, and before RIFing dudes that were denied VSP who still had ADSCs, and before congress let you know that they are willing to fuck with your retirement AFTER you're already retired...let alone fucking with it while we are still in. Yeah, times are changing and I'm just not sure $25k ($18k take home) is going to be enough to make someone want to stay who was already considering getting out. The dudes who are taking the bonus these days were most likely going to stay anyway. Why wouldn't you take an extra $25k of pay to do what you were going to do anyway. If they didn't offer the bonus at all, I'm pretty certain that most of the 60% that took it last year would stay in the AF. Realistically, the AF is just trying to convince a few of the fence sitters that it is a good deal to stay in. It isn't working anymore...if it was take rates would be increasing instead of decreasing or staying the same. There is a percentage leaving...and there is a reason. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeHoler Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Yeah, times are changing and I'm just not sure $25k ($18k take home) is going to be enough to make someone want to stay who was already considering getting out. The dudes who are taking the bonus these days were most likely going to stay anyway. Why wouldn't you take an extra $25k of pay to do what you were going to do anyway. If they didn't offer the bonus at all, I'm pretty certain that most of the 60% that took it last year would stay in the AF. Realistically, the AF is just trying to convince a few of the fence sitters that it is a good deal to stay in. It isn't working anymore...if it was take rates would be increasing instead of decreasing or staying the same. There is a percentage leaving...and there is a reason. I took it last year, but I would have stayed even without it. Most everyone I know who took it was in the same boat. The people who didn't take it wanted to stay in but flexibility to say I to an assignment. Cynic moment: I am curious as to what effect, if any, taking the bonus or not will have come RRF time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frog Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 It has been said before, but despite how it is advertised, the "bonus" is a way for the Air Force to see your cards. I don't think there are many folks at AFPC or at HAF who expect many people to change their life plan over $25K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcola Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 It really blows my mind that so many actually do take the bonus. I knew one guy that couldn't catch a break when it came to assignments. Then he passed on the bonus, and started sinking three pointers every vml. True. Anecdotally, a dude in my Sq passed on the bonus then told the boss he was planning to apply for the VSP. 2 weeks later he had a sweet new assignment...DV airlift in Europe. Funny how that shit works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitteEinBit Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 It has been said before, but despite how it is advertised, the "bonus" is a way for the Air Force to see your cards. I don't think there are many folks at AFPC or at HAF who expect many people to change their life plan over $25K. Agree. But even showing your cards (intent to stay by taking the bonus), the Air Force can and has still shown dudes the door. Chang was absolutely right, there are NO secrets that the Air Force makes this a one way contract. Some choose to ignore this fact, but it is clearly spelled out in the legal verbiage of the contract when you sign it. Like I said, the dudes who are going to take their chances with the bonus were going to stay anyway. If a dude is on the fence, they are probably thinking why would they take $18k to lose all control of their future to include continuation even after the contract is signed. Essentially, by signing the contract you are saying "Give me the money and you can use me how you want...and if you don't need me, you can kick me out before my contract is up without paying me the full contract amount we agreed to." Pcola brought up a good point that you can sometimes increase your leverage by NOT taking the bonus and having some control over your life. It can work for you like in the case he described, but it can work against you in these days of uncertainty about cuts. They may see you as a selfish non-player. Point to make, just because dudes aren't taking the bonus doesn't necessarily mean they are separating...they just want to maintain leverage. It is that free-agent uncertainty that the Air Force is going to have to deal with in the future (in my opinion)...which means YES AFPC, you're going to have to start caring, or sweeten the pot. Just my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty Pipes Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 It can work for you like in the case he described, but it can work against you in these days of uncertainty about cuts. They may see you as a selfish non-player. Point to make, just because dudes aren't taking the bonus doesn't necessarily mean they are separating...they just want to maintain leverage. It is that free-agent uncertainty that the Air Force is going to have to deal with in the future (in my opinion)... Just keep this in mind... You may have the coolest Commanders on the local level who will tell you themselves to your face when the day comes to sign/not sign the bonus that they completely understand you not signing and in no way see that at you "showing your cards" or not being a team player, but they are not the ones who matter. Your Sq, Group and Wing CC's will all be gone in 2 years max and the next guy could obviously have a 180 degree view. In reality though, it is the A1/AFPC shoe (read Chang) that you have never met and doesn't know the difference between a C-17 and an F-15 who will decide if they think you are "worthy" of making the cut. You are a number to him (as he will fully admit) and his job is to make the red numbers turn blue on his PowerPoint slide to some General. To you it is a personal choice... to him it couldn't be any less personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Chang Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) Just keep this in mind... You may have the coolest Commanders on the local level who will tell you themselves to your face when the day comes to sign/not sign the bonus that they completely understand you not signing and in no way see that at you "showing your cards" or not being a team player, but they are not the ones who matter. Your Sq, Group and Wing CC's will all be gone in 2 years max and the next guy could obviously have a 180 degree view. In reality though, it is the A1/AFPC shoe (read Chang) that you have never met and doesn't know the difference between a C-17 and an F-15 who will decide if they think you are "worthy" of making the cut. You are a number to him (as he will fully admit) and his job is to make the red numbers turn blue on his PowerPoint slide to some General. To you it is a personal choice... to him it couldn't be any less personal. The board members don't see ADSCs. Edited January 28, 2014 by General Chang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrodgsxr Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 I'm really confused. How do you show your colors by not taking the bonus? Does your CC have to sign something that states you decline ACP? To me it seems like a CC would have to take the time to look up your ADSC or add a column to his strat list for his exec to populate to get that visibility which I doubt is happening. Am I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcola Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 I'm really confused. How do you show your colors by not taking the bonus? Does your CC have to sign something that states you decline ACP? To me it seems like a CC would have to take the time to look up your ADSC or add a column to his strat list for his exec to populate to get that visibility which I doubt is happening. Am I missing something? Also curious about this. Does bonus paperwork go through the Sq/CC or Wg/CC, or does it go straight from the member to AFPC? If you are bonus eligible, do you have to decline it, or does just not doing the paperwork suffice as an act of declination? I guess if the CC really was that interested, he/she could track ADSCs to see who had signed away their leverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cell Dweller Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 I'm really confused. How do you show your colors by not taking the bonus? Does your CC have to sign something that states you decline ACP? To me it seems like a CC would have to take the time to look up your ADSC or add a column to his strat list for his exec to populate to get that visibility which I doubt is happening. Am I missing something? Would not show up in your record explicitly, but anyone you tell would know, and potentially someone like an exec would know, and it could end up travelling with you if you remain in your community. It also could end up being known through those sorts of unofficial channels by a person in a position (sts) to rate on you or otherwise recommend you for something like a promotion. Lots of hypotheticals, but nothing that you could probably legally point back to if you think that you were treated unfairly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TarHeelPilot Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 The more I learn about the upcoming RIF, the more I'm considering VSP. 33% overage in my year group/AFSC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Also curious about this. Does bonus paperwork go through the Sq/CC or Wg/CC, or does it go straight from the member to AFPC? If you are bonus eligible, do you have to decline it, or does just not doing the paperwork suffice as an act of declination? I guess if the CC really was that interested, he/she could track ADSCs to see who had signed away their leverage. Your Wg/CC has to sign it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Your Wg/CC has to sign it.. Nope. You Print. Sq/CC signs. You fax it in direct to AFPC. Wg/cc nor og/cc see it. However, anyone can see your ADSC on SURF after it's approved. It does take simple detective work to figure out if you were eligible and did not take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) Nope. You Print. Sq/CC signs. You fax it in direct to AFPC. Wg/cc nor og/cc see it. However, anyone can see your ADSC on SURF after it's approved. It does take simple detective work to figure out if you were eligible and did not take it. Nope: We are both wrong... kind of.. actually we are both right. You Commander signs it. Does not specify Wg/Gp/Sq. I was the Chief of flight safety so the WG/CC was my Commander and he signed it. Edited January 28, 2014 by Butters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeHoler Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Would not show up in your record explicitly Incorrect. There is a block that lists whether you took the ACP or not. I think you can see it if you go in to the vMPF or ADP versions of your SURF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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