Logging Training Sim Time (C-130J)

[Metalhead731]

I was wondering about how logging sim time towards your total time works and if we’re able to do it for military sim training. I’m currently at JMATS in Little Rock, training in their full motion C-130J simulators. I’m a guard guy so after seasoning I’ll be back out on the streets and have to find a full time civilian flying job (hopefully), and I’m trying to plan ahead. With the market as it is, I want to count as many hours as I’m able to towards my total time and hopefully go straight to a regional, or at least a fractional ownership company like Netjets. Does any C-130J pilot out there know if the C-130J sims are FAA certified so that we are able to count them towards total time? I keep hearing mixed things from people around here. Some say that we can count it all, others say we can’t because they’re not certified. Some say only the H-model sims are countable because there is a civilian equivalent and the FAA has that one certified but not the J-model sim. For the J pilots that have gone through the program, what did you do?

[HossHarris]

In the fighter world…none of the sims were FAA blessed or even equivalent to FAA blessed sims, so sim time meant nothing. 
 

ymmv

[herkbier]

It counts for nothing

[Lord Ratner]

2 hours ago, herkbier said:

It counts for nothing

Yep. Don't include it in any of your calculations. On the flip side, the airlines are well aware of what resources military pilots have, and they will adjust their requirements based on what they see your history is. Like I said, just get as many real flying hours as you can between now and getting out. As long as the economy holds out, you won't have a hard time getting an offer.

[FourFans]

C-130H and C-130J sims are certified Cat C or D (Full Flight Sims) sims and count for sim hours in the civilian world for maintaining currency.  Yes there is a civilian type for the C-130J (L-382J type rating is different than the L-382 type).  Yes, there are civil carriers that operate the C-130J.  They exist, the end.  If you doubt the certification of all the C-130 sims, go look up the Sim Cert folks at Little Rock.  Certifying our sims to an FAA standard is literally their entire job.

It's sim time.  Log it and keep track.  It doesn't count toward total time for civilian companies (though there may be a few exceptions).  Don't expect to get anything for it though RIGHT NOW.  Realize that at the drop of a hat the FAA or some airline you might fly for in the future may want to see that sim training, or even count it towards some time counter they track.  The civil aviation career field is known to be ossified and immovable...right up until it changes over night.  Be ready.

Long view: It's professional training you've accomplished.  Keep track of it in your own logbook.  If you don't have a personal consolidated logbook (all civil, UPT, mil flying) start one.  You're a professional and that is your professional resume and professional journal.  I've met more than enough airline pilots who stopped logging their own hours when they got hired at their "forever" airline, only to be shocked years later when they needed to find a new flying job and had to scramble to make sense of the 'flight log' that their company kept.

Pro Tips: DO NOT TRUST USAF HARMS RECORDS TO KEEP TRACK OF YOUR FLYING  Keep your own logbook.  Also, yes it will be years before your log PIC time.  That's normal.  Don't fudge those numbers to make it look like you've got turbine PIC before you should.  Airline hiring shops see right through those tricks.

Edited April 13 by FourFans

[HossHarris]

1 hour ago, FourFans said:

C-130H and C-130J sims are certified Cat C or D (Full Flight Sims) sims and count for sim hours in the civilian world for maintaining currency.  Yes there is a civilian type for the C-130J (L-382J type rating is different than the L-382 type).  Yes, there are civil carriers that operate the C-130J.  They exist, the end.  If you doubt the certification of all the C-130 sims, go look up the Sim Cert folks at Little Rock.  Certifying our sims to an FAA standard is literally their entire job.

It's sim time.  Log it and keep track.  It doesn't count toward total time for civilian companies (though there may be a few exceptions).  Don't expect to get anything for it though RIGHT NOW.  Realize that at the drop of a hat the FAA or some airline you might fly for in the future may want to see that sim training, or even count it towards some time counter they track.  The civil aviation career field is known to be ossified and immovable...right up until it changes over night.  Be ready.

Long view: It's professional training you've accomplished.  Keep track of it in your own logbook.  If you don't have a personal consolidated logbook (all civil, UPT, mil flying) start one.  You're a professional and that is your professional resume and professional journal.  I've met more than enough airline pilots who stopped logging their own hours when they got hired at their "forever" airline, only to be shocked years later when they needed to find a new flying job and had to scramble to make sense of the 'flight log' that their company kept.

Pro Tips: DO NOT TRUST USAF HARMS RECORDS TO KEEP TRACK OF YOUR FLYING  Keep your own logbook.  Also, yes it will be years before your log PIC time.  That's normal.  Don't fudge those numbers to make it look like you've got turbine PIC before you should.  Airline hiring shops see right through those tricks.

There you go. If it’s a legit FAA blessed sim, track it!

[Dapper Dan Man]

C-130H and C-130J sims are certified Cat C or D (Full Flight Sims) sims and count for sim hours in the civilian world for maintaining currency.  Yes there is a civilian type for the C-130J (L-382J type rating is different than the L-382 type). 

Not sure that either of these claims are true. No C-130 sims are listed on the current FAA Qualified FSTD list, located at https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/nsp/faa-qualified-flight-simulation-training-devices

Do you have an alternate reference that says they count as Cat C or D? Would be interested to see it.

The Mil version of the C-130J no longer qualifies you for the L-382J type. Source located here https://registry.faa.gov/typeratings/ (pdf pg. 10)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(edit in attempt to make hyperlinks work)

[FourFans]

2 hours ago, Dapper Dan Man said:

Do you have an alternate reference that says they count as Cat C or D? Would be interested to see it.

I’d have to defer to the sim cert team at LRF.  My knowledge dates to 2020.  That’s the last time I was in the know with those guys.  They’ve since PCS’d on.

2 hours ago, Dapper Dan Man said:

The Mil version of the C-130J no longer qualifies you for the L-382J type.

Well ain’t that about a bitch!  I got it put on my ticket in 2019.  Seems dumb not to have the equivalence.   Anyone here tried to get a 382J type recently? It felt like every all C-130E/H was utterly unique, while every J is exactly the same still.  Can’t see how a 382J would be any different than a C-130J.  I’ll bet it’s the block upgrades.  6.0 and 8.x are treated as different quals by the USAF.

Edited April 13 by FourFans

[Danger41]

On that note, on the AF portal search for “ARMS” and find the one labeled “aircrew summary”. Great way to make sure HARM is inputting sorties. Also, the AF apparently rolled out a cool thing called “envision” (envision.af.mil) that has all that along with career summary stuff. Very good product.

[Swizzle]

22 hours ago, FourFans said:

I’d have to defer to the sim cert team at LRF.  My knowledge dates to 2020.  That’s the last time I was in the know with those guys.  They’ve since PCS’d on.

Well ain’t that about a bitch!  I got it put on my ticket in 2019.  Seems dumb not to have the equivalence.   Anyone here tried to get a 382J type recently? It felt like every all C-130E/H was utterly unique, while every J is exactly the same still.  Can’t see how a 382J would be any different than a C-130J.  I’ll bet it’s the block upgrades.  6.0 and 8.x are treated as different quals by the USAF.

Peddle force augmented and some other nitnoid stuff 

[LookieRookie]

On 4/13/2024 at 12:58 PM, FourFans said:

C-130H and C-130J sims are certified Cat C or D (Full Flight Sims) sims and count for sim hours in the civilian world for maintaining currency.  Yes there is a civilian type for the C-130J (L-382J type rating is different than the L-382 type).  Yes, there are civil carriers that operate the C-130J.  They exist, the end.  If you doubt the certification of all the C-130 sims, go look up the Sim Cert folks at Little Rock.  Certifying our sims to an FAA standard is literally their entire job.

 

This is completely wrong.

I work SIMCERT stuff on staff.

AMC self-certifies its sims to level C+/D “equivalency” (AMC has its dets go to the FAA course) but none of it is FAA certified.

The time counts for nothing and do not put it on your apps.

[FourFans]

4 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

This is completely wrong.

I work SIMCERT stuff on staff.

AMC self-certifies its sims to level C+/D “equivalency” (AMC has its dets go to the FAA course) but none of it is FAA certified.

The time counts for nothing and do not put it on your apps.

Interesting.  No offense to you personally, but I have never, and will never trust a single word concerning real world level details I I hear from any staff...because I worked on multiple staffs.  As of 2020, the line guys doing sim cert for the C-130J sims at both LRF and BIX disagree with your assessment, seeing it's was possible to gain and maintain currency in the sim.  Granted, that USAF checking USAF and the FAA doesn't care.  However that was backed up by the FSDO at both Little Rock and Birmingham as I asked them that exact question in person.  However, I don't doubt that that they could have been wrong.  I've met more than one federal staff expert who knew nothing about C-130J stuff while being responsible for C-130J stuff.  Is your work AMC wide or specific to an airframe?

Beyond that, I completed and passed eight airline interviews from 2019 to 2021.  Sims and sim training came up in three of them and I asked the exact question about sim time counting, and one guy told me that if he saw nothing about sim time in a logbook he saw it as a sign the applicant was either fibbing or lazy.  The other guy in that interview agreed and acted as though the other guy had just given away a secret.  That's where I come up with my 'log your sim time' advice.  It ain't total time, but it is training.

It is what it is, but C-130J sims are currently still the best I've ever flow, and I got a different type rating in one FAR worst while training at MIA.

I reserve the right to be  corrected.  What exactly do you do on staff concerning simcert?

Edited April 15 by FourFans

[Lord Ratner]

5 hours ago, FourFans said:

Interesting.  No offense to you personally, but I have never, and will never trust a single word concerning real world level details I I hear from any staff...because I worked on multiple staffs.  As of 2020, the line guys doing sim cert for the C-130J sims at both LRF and BIX disagree with your assessment, seeing it's was possible to gain and maintain currency in the sim.  Granted, that USAF checking USAF and the FAA doesn't care.  However that was backed up by the FSDO at both Little Rock and Birmingham as I asked them that exact question in person.  However, I don't doubt that that they could have been wrong.  I've met more than one federal staff expert who knew nothing about C-130J stuff while being responsible for C-130J stuff.  Is your work AMC wide or specific to an airframe?

Beyond that, I completed and passed eight airline interviews from 2019 to 2021.  Sims and sim training came up in three of them and I asked the exact question about sim time counting, and one guy told me that if he saw nothing about sim time in a logbook he saw it as a sign the applicant was either fibbing or lazy.  The other guy in that interview agreed and acted as though the other guy had just given away a secret.  That's where I come up with my 'log your sim time' advice.  It ain't total time, but it is training.

It is what it is, but C-130J sims are currently still the best I've ever flow, and I got a different type rating in one FAR worst while training at MIA.

I reserve the right to be  corrected.  What exactly do you do on staff concerning simcert?

 

I have never heard that Air Force Sims have equivalency, unless those Sims are not actually part of the Air Force.

But I also think we are getting off on different paths here. Logging your sim time as sim time is one thing. That's literally what it is. Counting it towards your hours for the purposes of qualifications is an entirely different issue.

 

I have never heard anyone say that Air Force simulators count towards flight hour qualifications, for example, an ATP.

Also at American Airlines they did absolutely nothing with my hours. Are you military? Are you breathing? You're hired. I made a single cover sheet with a summary of hours, and handed that over with my Air Force records. I let them do the rest.

Edited April 15 by Lord Ratner

[FourFans]

4 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Are you military? Are you breathing? You're hired. I made a single cover sheet with a summary of hours, and handed that over with my Air Force records. I let them do the rest.

Exactly.  In none of my interviews were there any serious questions about logged time. 

The only real sim question were the interviewer asking about how we taught in the J, as students did a full IFR qual in the sim.  Not sure if that's the still the case.  He was an old school herk driver and was curious.

[8BC]

On 4/13/2024 at 3:11 PM, Dapper Dan Man said:

Not sure that either of these claims are true. No C-130 sims are listed on the current FAA Qualified FSTD list, located at https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/nsp/faa-qualified-flight-simulation-training-devices

Right there, mostly towards the bottom.  Lockheed Martin, L-382-J, Marietta, GA.  There is a L-382 listed in there as well, Flight Safety-Tampa, if I remember from reading 5 minutes ago. 

 

On 4/13/2024 at 3:11 PM, Dapper Dan Man said:

The Mil version of the C-130J no longer qualifies you for the L-382J type. Source located here https://registry.faa.gov/typeratings/ (pdf pg. 10)

Interesting interpretation. I have L-382 and L-382J types having only flown military.  Maybe the policy has changed to a more restrictive position.  It happens.   
 

Bottomline #1:  Keep track of ALL of your flights & sims. SARMs will never care about you as much as you need them to.

Bottomline #2: keep track of ALL of your flights & sims. Rules change. Today’s horizontal head shake may become tomorrow’s head nod. It is far easier to re-create the wheel if you already left a trail of bread crumbs.

Best of luck as you start your career!

[LookieRookie]

On 4/15/2024 at 5:37 AM, FourFans said:

Interesting.  No offense to you personally, but I have never, and will never trust a single word concerning real world level details I I hear from any staff...because I worked on multiple staffs.  As of 2020, the line guys doing sim cert for the C-130J sims at both LRF and BIX disagree with your assessment, seeing it's was possible to gain and maintain currency in the sim.  Granted, that USAF checking USAF and the FAA doesn't care.  However that was backed up by the FSDO at both Little Rock and Birmingham as I asked them that exact question in person.  However, I don't doubt that that they could have been wrong.  I've met more than one federal staff expert who knew nothing about C-130J stuff while being responsible for C-130J stuff.  Is your work AMC wide or specific to an airframe?

Beyond that, I completed and passed eight airline interviews from 2019 to 2021.  Sims and sim training came up in three of them and I asked the exact question about sim time counting, and one guy told me that if he saw nothing about sim time in a logbook he saw it as a sign the applicant was either fibbing or lazy.  The other guy in that interview agreed and acted as though the other guy had just given away a secret.  That's where I come up with my 'log your sim time' advice.  It ain't total time, but it is training.

It is what it is, but C-130J sims are currently still the best I've ever flow, and I got a different type rating in one FAR worst while training at MIA.

I reserve the right to be  corrected.  What exactly do you do on staff concerning simcert?

The military determines is own qualifications for currency.

That has nothing to do with valid FAA hours for an ATP.

 

As well, to have the legal ability to count as hours for an ATP, the device needs an FAA ID, which C-130 sims dont

Edited April 16 by LookieRookie

[FourFans]

32 minutes ago, LookieRookie said:

The military determines is own qualifications for currency.

That has nothing to do with valid FAA hours for an ATP.

 

As well, to have the legal ability to count as hours for an ATP, the device needs an FAA ID, which C-130 sims dont

Alrighty then.  I must have been wrong.

Edited April 16 by FourFans

[LookieRookie]

4 hours ago, FourFans said:

Alrighty then.  I must have been wrong.

Cheers 🍻