Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[FLEA]

10 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

Actually, he has consistently been arguing that we must accept Putin’s viewpoint as valid, or maybe you haven’t been reading it closely.

You are setting the conditions that make diplomatic or economic solutions impossible. You are basically saying "only war is a solution to this because the west should have the freedom to act with impunity and not care about what other country's concerns are." 

That's fine, but don't bitch and moan when those countries don't care about your concerns either. Every state has equal voice at the UN, that's a key tenant of sovereign principals. But you are consistently advocating that's not true that only the US voice matters. That's a problem.... We are a single country, we are not a conquerer or an empire. 

[FLEA]

8 minutes ago, Wendell said:

Exactly that was the problem I had with the discussion.  I have no desire to get Into a direct shooting war with Russia.  I take issue that every time an academic discussion in the west it always seems to end with us having to be in the wrong some way and that all the other opinions have equal value.  Fuk that…this war is Putin’s doing.  I can completely understand why former Soviet republics would want to join NATO, it’s on full display right now.  I completely disagree that the west has to do some kind of soul searching to figure out how we were wrong and forced Putin to invade Ukraine.  Putin misjudged the west’s actions and I hope his economy crumbles and he is removed from power, preferably by a rope.  In the meantime more sanctions, pump US oil and continue to dump weapons into the Ukraine to kill as many Russians as possible.

We didn't force Putin. Noone is saying that. Not a single person is saying the West is responsible for Putin invading the Ukraine. People are saying that diplomatic options to avoid the war though were bypassed because we dismissed Putin's concerns as non material and believed he wouldn't start a shooting war over those concerns. Then, he did start a shooting war over those concerns and we seem shocked.... Sounds more like we miscalculated more than Putin.... And we're going to continue to miscalculate as long as we continue to dismiss his motivations and what he is or isn't willing to do to secure them. 

[brickhistory]

46 minutes ago, goingkinetic said:

Yes, if we disagree with you we are clearly imbeciles. Stop assuming your intellectual superiority.

It's not taking disagreeing...

 

 

 

G'night, folks.  I'll be here all week.  Tip your servers...

[FLEA]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/iran-nuclear-deal-agreement-expected-european-diplomat

 

Another tie-in to how a failure to attempt diplomacy complicates things. 

Did anyone stop to think for a second that we might need Russia's cooperation to secure other interests? 

[Wendell]

15 minutes ago, FLEA said:

We didn't force Putin. Noone is saying that. Not a single person is saying the West is responsible for Putin invading the Ukraine. People are saying that diplomatic options to avoid the war though were bypassed because we dismissed Putin's concerns as non material and believed he wouldn't start a shooting war over those concerns. Then, he did start a shooting war over those concerns and we seem shocked.... Sounds more like we miscalculated more than Putin.... And we're going to continue to miscalculate as long as we continue to dismiss his motivations and what he is or isn't willing to do to secure them. 

Between all the verbal fellatio about how we were getting a “masters class” with all of your apologist drivel you literally stated 

“Why yes... I am saying we should have stopped NATO expansion in 1990 when we had the chance. There wouldn't be a Vladmir Putin problem if we did. Not only that we had several off ramps including up until February when Vladmir Putin sent President Biden a list of demands thatencompassed his security concerns in central Europe.”

You are blaming NATO for not taking any off-ramps from Putin’s demands implying that because we didn’t bend to his demands we are responsible for what happens next.  So while I didn’t go through and reread everything it was very clear that you were heavily implying the west forced Putin into attacking in Ukraine by crossing some red line you theorize exists and it’s our fault for not understanding him.  Ukraine can choose to align themselves however they want they should not have to serve as a buffer if they recognize the value of relationships with the west and choose to pursue them that is their sovereign right and not an excuse to be invaded by a power hungry despot.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Wendell

[SurelySerious]

You are setting the conditions that make diplomatic or economic solutions impossible. You are basically saying "only war is a solution to this because the west should have the freedom to act with impunity and not care about what other country's concerns are." 
That's fine, but don't bitch and moan when those countries don't care about your concerns either. Every state has equal voice at the UN, that's a key tenant of sovereign principals. But you are consistently advocating that's not true that only the US voice matters. That's a problem.... We are a single country, we are not a conquerer or an empire. 

Nah bro, I never said only war is a solution to this but keep trying to build paper tigers to fight.

[goingkinetic]

5 minutes ago, brickhistory said:

It's not taking disagreeing...

 

 

 

G'night, folks.  I'll be here all week.  Tip your servers...

You must have been in the 99th percentile on the AFOQT, flown the OV-105A and developed fusion reactors. Watch everyone Brickhistory the worlds smartest man is here.

[FLEA]

5 minutes ago, Wendell said:

Between all the verbal fellatio about how we were getting a “masters class” with all of your apologist drivel you literally stated 

“Why yes... I am saying we should have stopped NATO expansion in 1990 when we had the chance. There wouldn't be a Vladmir Putin problem if we did. Not only that we had several off ramps including up until February when Vladmir Putin sent President Biden a list of demands thatencompassed his security concerns in central Europe.”

You are blaming NATO for not taking any off-ramps from Putin’s demands implying that because we didn’t bend to his demands we are responsible for what happens next.  So while I didn’t go through and reread everything it was very clear that you were heavily implying the west forced Putin into attacking in Ukraine by crossing some red line you theorize exists and it’s our fault for not understanding him.  Ukraine can choose to align themselves however they want they should not have to serve as a buffer if they recognize the value of relationships with the west and choose to pursue them that is their sovereign right and not an excuse to be invaded by a power hungry despot.

So the Ukraine can choose to align themselves with whoever they want but we can't? We are obligated to an accept an alliance with anyone that ask for it. Interesting take. 

[Wendell]

3 minutes ago, FLEA said:

So the Ukraine can choose to align themselves with whoever they want but we can't? We are obligated to an accept an alliance with anyone that ask for it. Interesting take. 

I never said NATO had to accept them you are just trying to put words into my mouth.  But it was alluded to and probably stated that by even trying to join NATO was enough to get Russia to Invade.

[FLEA]

Just now, Wendell said:

I never said NATO had to accept them you are just trying to put words into my mouth.  But it was alluded to and probably stated that by even trying to join NATO was enough to get Russia to Invade.

Because it wasn't a theoretical red line it was a very real red line that we knew about and we have recognized and talked about for decades. Noone on here is apologizing for Putin. We are accusing everyone of not taking him serious. You are all just falling into a trap of believing he is an irrational clown that just bungled himself into a disaster and I'm afraid that complacency widespread in US government is going to lead to the US getting out maneuvered by him. This dude knows what the fuck he is doing. He's been doing this for a long time.... And he's gotten really good at it. 

Even now the way the media covers his invasion they are making it seem like he is failing at every turn. However, we know Russia is actually probably meeting or exceeding their own measures of success. The stuff they are losing was expendable and was being used to set forward supply post, critical nodes, and infrastructure for their follow on forces. It's very possible the west is going to face a moment of shock in about a week when Kyiv is surrounded and we can no longer get aid in or out. I'm not an expert on Soviet combined arms doctrine but there are lots of people who are that are highlighting this and yet we still want to focus on the 18yo conscript who forgot to set the tanks parking break as representative of the whole Russian military backbone. 

[ClearedHot]

CNN has some very disturbing footage, it looks like the Russians are bombing and just leveling smaller towns outside Kyiv.  One apartment building was hit and they think there are 100 people trapped int he wreckage but no one can get to them.  Horrific images.

 

[hockeydork]

50 minutes ago, FLEA said:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/iran-nuclear-deal-agreement-expected-european-diplomat

 

Another tie-in to how a failure to attempt diplomacy complicates things. 

Did anyone stop to think for a second that we might need Russia's cooperation to secure other interests? 

The Ukrainian people aren't a bargaining chip between the west and Russia tho man. They are people who want a say in their future.

[hockeydork]

18 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

CNN has some very disturbing footage, it looks like the Russians are bombing and just leveling smaller towns outside Kyiv.  One apartment building was hit and they think there are 100 people trapped int he wreckage but no one can get to them.  Horrific images.

 

Looks like the Ukrainians have been able to shoot down some helos and jets as well with the MANPADs. Awful, suffering on both sides.

[FLEA]

4 minutes ago, hockeydork said:

The Ukrainian people aren't a bargaining chip between the west and Russia tho man. They are people who want a say in their future.

So call your senator or representative and tell them that. Tell them you stand for Ukraine independence before a nuclear free Iran. I'm merely pointing out this situation is way more complicated than people credit it for. 

[brickhistory]

2 minutes ago, hockeydork said:

Looks like the Ukrainians have been able to shoot down some helos and jets as well with the MANPADs. Awful, suffering on both sides.

Nope, the suffering is only on the attacked side.

Bleed out Ivan and this stops and won't happen again...

[hockeydork]

Just now, FLEA said:

So call your senator or representative and tell them that. Tell them you stand for Ukraine independence before a nuclear free Iran. I'm merely pointing out this situation is way more complicated than people credit it for. 

I agree but some times you have to throw the monoply board away and ask what is right. What if the British had crushed us during the revolution because the French wouldn't help us? Think about it...

[pawnman]

3 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

Great foreign policy 

“protect the innocent”

China is committing war crimes on the Uyghurs and putting them in camps we should attack China!

Gotta weigh pros and cons. The pros don’t outweigh the cons and it’s not even close. 

Do you think there's a difference between what happens within a country's borders and when they invade another country?

[hockeydork]

2 minutes ago, brickhistory said:

Nope, the suffering is only on the attacked side.

Bleed out Ivan and this stops and won't happen again...

You are correct. I like to think with enough stingers dispersed widely the Ukrainians can set up there own no fly zone below 10k. Also can we not count them out, we just need to make sure the weapons are getting to them.

[FLEA]

5 minutes ago, hockeydork said:

I agree but some times you have to throw the monoply board away and ask what is right. What if the British had crushed us during the revolution because the French wouldn't help us? Think about it...

Would you blame the French for that? 

[hockeydork]

1 minute ago, FLEA said:

Would you blame the French for that? 

No, but I respect them for stepping up as opposed to letting us fight the biritsh with sticks in our underwear.

[brickhistory]

8 minutes ago, hockeydork said:

... fight the biritsh with sticks in our underwear.

Interesting Slavic phrase...

[pawnman]

31 minutes ago, hockeydork said:

Looks like the Ukrainians have been able to shoot down some helos and jets as well with the MANPADs. Awful, suffering on both sides.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

I hope we see more blasted BTRs and helos in the next few days. 

[hockeydork]

[HeloDude]

1 hour ago, FLEA said:

Would you blame the French for that? 

I don’t know Lloyd, the French are assholes.

[Lord Ratner]

23 hours ago, FLEA said:

But that's not how Putin, or anyone in Russian governance sees it. And they continue to see NATO aggressively because NATO refuses to accept olive branches. 

It doesn't matter that you know NATO is a defensive organization. Russia doesn't and they aren't privy to the insider baseball that would make them think that way. 

They fully know it. It's just incompatible with their desire for empire building. The Russian/Chinese conception of world affairs is incompatible with the West. Either they adapt, or there will be war. My bet is the latter. But the longer we navel gaze, as you are doing, the longer they have to prepare for the fight.

 

This is the epitome of "don't dress like a slut if you don't want to be raped." 

 

Does that mean we strike first? No. But it does mean we don't allow for any trade or economic interaction with countries that won't follow the rules, and we definitely put our full economic weight behind innocent countries (West aligned) that are attacked. We have, and continue to finance our enemies.

22 hours ago, FLEA said:

Because your actual truth is not the actual truth either Prozac, its your perceived truth as well. 

And its not about giving a dictator what he wants, its about understanding and addressing his security concerns without escalating conflict. Just because a foreign government has an autocrat, does not mean there can't be trust or cooperation. We've done it with other autocrats, why are we so resistant to do it with Russia? I'm not saying make Russia the next South Korea (autocratic government until the late 80s) but I am saying when their head of state says he is concerned about infringement on his country's sovereignty, why do we dismiss that as a non issue? 

You're dangerously close to relativism here, and relativism is always a losing philosophy, both in geopolitical outcomes and in general. There *is* a right and wrong. 

7 hours ago, FLEA said:

Academics won WW2. Yes, Academics. Turing, Einstein, etc.... Academics and industry. Get something straight, US military never won a war. US industry backed by academia won every one from the 20th century on. 

This is wildly illogical. America won the war. Turing and Einstein wouldn't have gotten much done without Patton and Macarthur, who wouldn't have gotten much done without Ford and Kaiser.

Only an academic with major insecurities (i.e., academics) would make such an absurd claim.

3 hours ago, FLEA said:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/iran-nuclear-deal-agreement-expected-european-diplomat

 

Another tie-in to how a failure to attempt diplomacy complicates things. 

Did anyone stop to think for a second that we might need Russia's cooperation to secure other interests? 

You have to be pants-on-head stupid to think we are going to negotiate Iran out of nukes. But you also thought we would be able to negotiate Russia and Putin out of imperialistic ambitions, so I guess that's consistent.

 

The parallels between the appeasement of Hitler and the appeasement of Putin are getting clearer by the day. I fear the progression of conflict will follow a similar path. If not with Russia, assuredly with China.

 

How do you appease a regime that identifies your downfall as a precondition to their success?