COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[Day Man]

1 hour ago, tac airlifter said:

Your article does not provide any actual data

as opposed to said tweet? lol ok bro

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, tac airlifter said:

Your article does not provide any actual data, it merely alludes to mathematical errors in the assertion that C19 vaccine causes a higher miscarriage risk.  If you want to "debunk the conspiracy" then we'd need to know the number of miscarriages in a non-vaccinated control group compared against the number in the vaccine group, then curate for other factors (lifestyle risk choices, age, overall health, etc.).  This should be easy to debunk given that data exists, I wonder why that wasn't part of your article?
 

The only relevant information your linked article provided for those questions was the Pfizer comment that they did testing and do not assess miscarriage as a risk.  Except they've lied about many things during the pandemic, including efficacy of the shot.   **Edited to add: I did read the linked Sep 21 article claiming to prove no relation between vaccine and miscarriage; too old & not good enough, I want the Pfizer study data.**
 

So good luck debunking conspiracies, I mean that genuinely.  But denial & counter-accusation does not actually debunk it.  Release of all raw testing data might. The appeal to authority is unconvincing in light of complete failure, uncovered deception and corruption by the authorities.  

The burden of proof rests with the person making the assertion. What evidence do you have that the vaccines did cause all these additional miscarriages? Aside from counting multiple instances in the report twice to get a more alarming number, that is? 

[tac airlifter]

6 hours ago, pawnman said:

The burden of proof rests with the person making the assertion. What evidence do you have that the vaccines did cause all these additional miscarriages? Aside from counting multiple instances in the report twice to get a more alarming number, that is? 

You're quite right, the burden of proof rests with the person making the assertion.  The assertion made is that we must get vaccinated, it is the safe & effective way to "stop the spread."  You should be prepared to convince a pregnant mom, not presume to order her.  
 

You pro-vaccine zealots don't get it; 100% of the burden to prove vaccine validity is on you.  This isn't a tit for tat discussion, you need overwhelming evidence from impartial sources and total data transparency or no one will believe you.  You don't have it.  Would you  force your wife to take the clot shot while pregnant if risk of miscarriage increase was only 1%?  Which is greater: the risk a young woman will have and spread covid so severe it threatens her life and others, or the risk this shot will harm her unborn baby?

Since you can't answer those question, you shouldn't be shaming people misreading data to err on the side of cautious prenatal care.  

Edited August 28, 2023 by tac airlifter

[pawnman]

3 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

You're quite right, the burden of proof rests with the person making the assertion.  The assertion made is that we must get vaccinated, it is the safe & effective way to "stop the spread."  You should be prepared to convince a pregnant mom, not presume to order her.  
 

You pro-vaccine zealots don't get it; 100% of the burden to prove vaccine validity is on you.  This isn't a tit for tat discussion, you need overwhelming evidence from impartial sources and total data transparency or no one will believe you.  You don't have it.  Would you  force your wife to take the clot shot while pregnant if risk of miscarriage increase was only 1%?  Which is greater: the risk a young woman will have and spread covid so severe it threatens her life and others, or the risk this shot will harm her unborn baby?

Since you can't answer those question, you shouldn't be shaming people misreading data to err on the side of cautious prenatal care.  

Ah. "I don't like the vaccines, I can make up anything I want and it's on you to prove me wrong".

You guys are about as coherent as flat earthers with your arguments. 

For what it's worth, I don't think the vaccines should be mandatory for anyone and I'll even give you the point that they don't work nearly as well as advertised. I think you hurt your own argument when you completely make up new, scary side-effects that aren't supported by the data.

[tac airlifter]

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

I think you hurt your own argument when you completely make up new, scary side-effects that aren't supported by the data.

The "data" doesn't support all the young athletes dying suddenly, yet it's plain as day that's exactly what's happening.

turns out when you lie to people, they don't trust you.  I notice you didn't engage on whether you'd have your pregnant wife/sister/daughter get vaxed and boosted.  I don't blame you for avoiding the question, it's quite uncomfortable to realize you're the bad guy in a narrative.

Edited August 28, 2023 by tac airlifter

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, tac airlifter said:

The "data" doesn't support all the young athletes dying suddenly, yet it's plain as day that's exactly what's happening.

turns out when you lie to people, they don't trust you.  I notice you didn't engage on whether you'd have your pregnant wife/sister/daughter get vaxed and boosted.  I don't blame you for avoiding the question, it's quite uncomfortable to realize you're the bad guy in a narrative.

So...a couple high profile cases are more compelling to you than any actual statistical data?

I'm not going to keep arguing it with you. You've found a topic you're passionate about, and you won't be convinced otherwise. Unlike you, I can be convinced by data...and it turns out there's a lot of studies that show people who hold emotional views not only can't be swayed by data, they actually just dig in as you present data contrary to their opinion.

Dont get vaccinated. Don't get your kids vaccinated. I don't care.

[tac airlifter]

1 minute ago, pawnman said:

Dont get vaccinated. Don't get your kids vaccinated. I don't care.

Awesome, we finally agree! And I don't care how many boosters you take or how often you double mask your kids.  Have at it.  

Freedom of choice has traditionally been a shared value in the US; it's only recently tyrants tried forcing us rather than convincing us.  If you've switched away from the mandate cultists, then I welcome you on the side of freedom regardless of your opinion on vaccine efficacy.  Live and let live.

[RedEye1911]

35 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

Awesome, we finally agree! And I don't care how many boosters you take or how often you double mask your kids.  Have at it.  

Freedom of choice has traditionally been a shared value in the US; it's only recently tyrants tried forcing us rather than convincing us.  If you've switched away from the mandate cultists, then I welcome you on the side of freedom regardless of your opinion on vaccine efficacy.  Live and let live.

I really don't think they understand that the problem was the vaccine being forced on people, not that there was a vaccine.

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, tac airlifter said:

Awesome, we finally agree! And I don't care how many boosters you take or how often you double mask your kids.  Have at it.  

Freedom of choice has traditionally been a shared value in the US; it's only recently tyrants tried forcing us rather than convincing us.  If you've switched away from the mandate cultists, then I welcome you on the side of freedom regardless of your opinion on vaccine efficacy.  Live and let live.

Great. I was never on the side of the mandate cultists. You guys have just decided that anyone who doesn't believe the vaccines will sterilize you daughters and kill your sons must be on the side of mandates.

I was on the side of "get the vaccine so we can get back to normal". I've been bitterly disappointed at the long-term efficacy of the vaccines. I don't believe they are any more dangerous or damaging than any of the dozens of vaccines already on the vaccination schedule.

Now, before someone drags up previous posts for a "gotcha" moment, I want to make a distinction. I believe Biden and the DoD had the legal authority to order service members to get vaccinated. That doesn't mean I think it was a good idea. I NEVER supported the idea of a nation-wide mandate for the vaccines.

[HeloDude]

On 7/28/2021 at 10:57 PM, VMFA187 said:

To you and Prawnman,

Would you guys respect someone’s decision if they evaluated the threat to themselves, and others, and decided it was not worth the risk of getting a vaccine? 

 

On 7/29/2021 at 8:44 AM, pawnman said:

Depends.  Is this person not getting the vaccine still wearing a mask, socially distancing, avoiding large crowds of people...?

Or is this person loudly proclaiming that everything should be open, you can't ask about their vaccination status, refusing to wear a mask even in places where there's a 100% mask policy, and eagerly booking tickets for the next big event?

Because from what I've seen, the people who aren't getting vaccinated also scoff every other countermeasure taken against the pandemic.  If you've gotten advice from your doctor that you shouldn't get the vaccine, I don't fault you.  If you're taking marching orders from some political operative that told you Biden and Fauci are out to get you...no, I don't respect that decision.

It’s funny to see people try to act differently today when this is how they were 2 years ago.

It’s ok to have been wrong in the past, and it’s ok to even change your mind.  I’ll even forgive people for being jerks if they show remorse and humility.  But people need to own what they said/did and tell people they were wrong and a complete jerk.  Anything less than that, well, then I’ll assume they’re the same person as two years ago.

[BashiChuni]

43 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

 

It’s funny to see people try to act differently today when this is how they were 2 years ago.

It’s ok to have been wrong in the past, and it’s ok to even change your mind.  I’ll even forgive people for being jerks if they show remorse and humility.  But people need to own what they said/did and tell people they were wrong and a complete jerk.  Anything less than that, well, then I’ll assume they’re the same person as two years ago.

100%

a few posters on here with massive egg on their face

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, HeloDude said:

 

It’s funny to see people try to act differently today when this is how they were 2 years ago.

It’s ok to have been wrong in the past, and it’s ok to even change your mind.  I’ll even forgive people for being jerks if they show remorse and humility.  But people need to own what they said/did and tell people they were wrong and a complete jerk.  Anything less than that, well, then I’ll assume they’re the same person as two years ago.

I'm sorry...can you point to the phrase you believe says "I think thenfull force of the federal government should come down on people who don't get vaccinated?"

You guys enjoy beating on that strawman. Youve gotten plenty of practice over the last 2 years.

[HeloDude]

40 minutes ago, pawnman said:

I'm sorry...can you point to the phrase you believe says "I think thenfull force of the federal government should come down on people who don't get vaccinated?"

You guys enjoy beating on that strawman. Youve gotten plenty of practice over the last 2 years.

Your words two years ago speak for themselves.  You were against everyday folks who didn’t want to get the vaccine, and then who didn’t want wear a mask, didn’t want to social distance, etc.  I’m just pointing out that you were being a complete jerk and believed that what you were being told was true—that if someone fell into the camp above, that they were wrong.   So unless you would like to admit that you were being a jerk and that you were wrong, I just reposted your words for everyone else to read once more.  

[pawnman]

6 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Your words two years ago speak for themselves.  You were against everyday folks who didn’t want to get the vaccine, and then who didn’t want wear a mask, didn’t want to social distance, etc.  I’m just pointing out that you were being a complete jerk and believed that what you were being told was true—that if someone fell into the camp above, that they were wrong.   So unless you would like to admit that you were being a jerk and that you were wrong, I just reposted your words for everyone else to read once more.  

You got all the apology you're gonna get. 

[BashiChuni]

3 hours ago, pawnman said:

You got all the apology you're gonna get. 

take the L like a man

[brabus]

3 hours ago, pawnman said:

You got all the apology you're gonna get. 

 

[VMFA187]

14 hours ago, pawnman said:

I'm sorry...can you point to the phrase you believe says "I think thenfull force of the federal government should come down on people who don't get vaccinated?"

You guys enjoy beating on that strawman. Youve gotten plenty of practice over the last 2 years.

Pretty sure somewhere over the course of this discussion you said you would punish any military member who didn't get the vaccine with the full authority given by the UCMJ if you were a commander. That's about as close as one can get to what you said. 

[pawnman]

2 minutes ago, VMFA187 said:

Pretty sure somewhere over the course of this discussion you said you would punish any military member who didn't get the vaccine with the full authority given by the UCMJ if you were a commander. That's about as close as one can get to what you said. 

No...I said I'd be pretty pissed when  I found out people were lying about being vaccinated just so they could disregard SECDEF's guidance on masks. Including UCMJ action for people who choose to lie, to my face, about their vaccination status in order to not wear a mask. 

Integrity first, unless it's something I don't want to do...

I was always clear that I believed Biden and the DoD had the legal authority to order military members to get vaccinated. That's very different than believing that the federal government should force every citizen to get vaccinated. 

Like...I literally can't say this any more simply. Y'all have built a strawman, and you're clutching it with both hands so you can keep beating on it.

[RedEye1911]

41 minutes ago, pawnman said:

I was always clear that I believed Biden and the DoD had the legal authority to order military members to get vaccinated.

lol

Name an atrocity committed in which the people in charge didn't have the legal authority (granted to themselves by themselves) to do horrible things.

"I was just following orders..."

Integrity first? What freaking military are you in? Zero people at the top have any integrity.

I respect anyone who lied or cheated to get out of masking or vaccines. They were right, even if they were legally wrong. I should have just slipped someone some money to squirt the shot onto the ground.

[brabus]

@pawnman You said if people didn’t get the vax due to doctor rec, you were ok with that. If they didn’t get it for any other reason, you said you don’t respect that decision. So, you explicitly stated you did not respect individual medical freedom in 2021. And you backed that stance up with garbage info that has been substantially refuted since then. Those are facts, not strawmen.

Edited August 29, 2023 by brabus

[pawnman]

Yeah, I'm tapping out. You all can declare victory if you want. 

 

[Pooter]

3 years into the covid debate and I'm still waiting for the mass outrage over yearly flu shots, anthrax boosters, malaria pills for places that barely have malaria, and countless other onerous military medical requirements everyone just blindly accepts.

Oh I forgot, none of those are political lightning rods so no one cares.

[ViperMan]

6 hours ago, Pooter said:

3 years into the covid debate and I'm still waiting for the mass outrage over yearly flu shots, anthrax boosters, malaria pills for places that barely have malaria, and countless other onerous military medical requirements everyone just blindly accepts.

Oh I forgot, none of those are political lightning rods so no one cares.

None of those bugs are being used to fear-monger and bludgeon our society into all manner of ridiculous behaviors, so apples to oranges much? I'm sure if there were politicians out there beating the war drum over the four horsemen of the yearly flu, you'd have the hypothetical response you're sarcastically looking for.

As for me, I'm not confused by this. The powers that be have used the COVID event to shuttle in all manner of onerous policies and shove our economic system off a cliff. In the future, I hope our dollars are worth what we're all saving them for. I hope the trillions of dollars that were printed, someday find the productivity they stole from the future.

Flu and Malaria don't make money. COVID does. Your sarcasm is misdirected, and you clearly don't understand what people are pissed about.

"Unscorable @ 9, 2".

[Pooter]

2 hours ago, ViperMan said:

None of those bugs are being used to fear-monger and bludgeon our society into all manner of ridiculous behaviors, so apples to oranges much? I'm sure if there were politicians out there beating the war drum over the four horsemen of the yearly flu, you'd have the hypothetical response you're sarcastically looking for.

As for me, I'm not confused by this. The powers that be have used the COVID event to shuttle in all manner of onerous policies and shove our economic system off a cliff. In the future, I hope our dollars are worth what we're all saving them for. I hope the trillions of dollars that were printed, someday find the productivity they stole from the future.

Flu and Malaria don't make money. COVID does. Your sarcasm is misdirected, and you clearly don't understand what people are pissed about.

"Unscorable @ 9, 2".

My bad, I thought people were mad about the mandates.. reference the conversation above ☝️☝️ and dozens pages before it. 
 

Which is why I brought up other medical things the military mandates that people don't think twice about.  Hence the political lightning rod comment. 
 

It's funny, the prevailing attitude in the military was, until very recently, to shut up, complete your readiness requirements no matter how stupid, go hack the mission, and load up on go pills/rip it's/no gos/coffee/cigs/dip to get the job done, crush beers afterward, all while knowing full well basically everything the military asks you to do is bad for you. 

Is this a healthy outlook? Nope. But you can't say it wasn't common.

But then all of that magically did a 180 with COVID. Do we think that's because everyone in the military simultaneously had an epiphany that their body is a temple? Or is it because COVID turned into a culture war, and then we do what we always do and revert back to two warring tribes. One tribe is double masking alone in their cars to show how health conscious they are while the other ignores even the most basic precautions to own the libs.

[RedEye1911]

6 hours ago, Pooter said:

My bad, I thought people were mad about the mandates.. reference the conversation above ☝️☝️ and dozens pages before it. 
 

Which is why I brought up other medical things the military mandates that people don't think twice about.  Hence the political lightning rod comment. 
 

It's funny, the prevailing attitude in the military was, until very recently, to shut up, complete your readiness requirements no matter how stupid, go hack the mission, and load up on go pills/rip it's/no gos/coffee/cigs/dip to get the job done, crush beers afterward, all while knowing full well basically everything the military asks you to do is bad for you. 

Is this a healthy outlook? Nope. But you can't say it wasn't common.

But then all of that magically did a 180 with COVID. Do we think that's because everyone in the military simultaneously had an epiphany that their body is a temple? Or is it because COVID turned into a culture war, and then we do what we always do and revert back to two warring tribes. One tribe is double masking alone in their cars to show how health conscious they are while the other ignores even the most basic precautions to own the libs.

People learn and people change their minds.

Your argument is invalid.

Keep doing what you're told and keep your zero agency. Remember, you were just following orders.