Digital ORM

[Standby]

I want to port our paper ORM worksheet into the digital world and dont have a lot of coding skills. Looking for a single product that allows pilots to quickly complete ORM with a database back-end for safety data analysis. Anybody currently use this process in their unit or have files they could send me to poach from?

Edited September 10, 2019 by Standby

[BashiChuni]

https://youtu.be/6p-lDYPR2P8

I found a YouTube link that describes exactly your problem set. Pretty easy step by step instructions 

[viper154]

26 minutes ago, Standby said:

I want to port our paper ORM worksheet into the digital world and dont have a lot of coding skills. Looking for a single product that allows pilots to quickly complete ORM with a database back-end for safety data analysis. Anybody currently use this process in their unit or have files they could send me to poach from?

I flew for a deployed unit a few years back that used a excel workbook. Worked decently and color coded and all that fun stuff. I’m not smart enough to make one but that is a direction you could pursue. 

Big thing was that it was at a step desk computer. I know different communities handle the step desk differently, Ipad/file sharing between your crew might be a better route. 

[SurelySerious]

5 minutes ago, viper154 said:

I flew for a deployed unit a few years back that used a excel workbook. Worked decently and color coded and all that fun stuff. I’m not smart enough to make one but that is a direction you could pursue. 

Big thing was that it was at a step desk computer. I know different communities handle the step desk differently, Ipad/file sharing between your crew might be a better route. 

One of the guys here tried it with PEX a few years ago; it never worked out. 

[Skitzo]

One of the guys here tried it with PEX a few years ago; it never worked out. 

 

Nothing with PEX works well.

 

Took them 9 months to import new Form8s

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

[gearhog]

Trigger Warning: Unpopular old-guy opinion ahead. 😁

Our ORM sheet is the last remaining untechnologified step in the administrivia process before we head out the door to the aircraft. 5 people can pick up a pencil and scribble a completely subjective number in about 30 seconds without requiring 5 individual logins with certificate-less CACs, computers attempting to connect, and a slow, if not stopped, network.

Please don't take that from us.

[Hawg15]

7 hours ago, torqued said:

Trigger Warning: Unpopular old-guy opinion ahead. 😁

Our ORM sheet is the last remaining untechnologified step in the administrivia process before we head out the door to the aircraft. 5 people can pick up a pencil and scribble a completely subjective number in about 30 seconds without requiring 5 individual logins with certificate-less CACs, computers attempting to connect, and a slow, if not stopped, network.

Please don't take that from us.

I have to agree with this. I’d much rather continue doing our ORM on a dry erase sheet than deal with a computer. Make an excel sheet and enter everything after the crew steps if they want it all tracked. Don’t make my job harder with terrible Air Force technology skills. 

[Pooter]

8 hours ago, torqued said:

Trigger Warning: Unpopular old-guy opinion ahead. 😁

Our ORM sheet is the last remaining untechnologified step in the administrivia process before we head out the door to the aircraft. 5 people can pick up a pencil and scribble a completely subjective number in about 30 seconds without requiring 5 individual logins with certificate-less CACs, computers attempting to connect, and a slow, if not stopped, network.

Please don't take that from us.

Thirded.  In a world where the computers work reliably and serious back end analysis will be followed through with, I like this idea.  

But unfortunately that is not the world we live in.

[FishBowl]

Isn’t ORM a “living document”? Factors up to takeoff can affect the ORM. I understand a call to ops sup or SOF can update the score and Uniate coordination, but having a pencil copy allows for it to be changed without the downfalls of technology. And, I almost forgot, stay off my lawn. 

[Pooter]

3 hours ago, FishBowl said:

Isn’t ORM a “living document”? Factors up to takeoff can affect the ORM. I understand a call to ops sup or SOF can update the score and Uniate coordination, but having a pencil copy allows for it to be changed without the downfalls of technology. And, I almost forgot, stay off my lawn. 

Never heard of somebody calling up the sup/sof to change their ORM score post-step.  Is this a thing I'm not aware of?

[Standby]

Resistance is futile, the future is here. I'm not senior enough to have an aid (AIDS is different, recently got educated on that through green dot training) but if someone wants to log 69+ ORM cuts a day for the remainder of my time in the seat, I'll give you like...a couple bucks or something. I have done that in the past, but performing a manual input and parsing that amount of data isn't feasible.

For the haters...I guess be glad you have your current system and don't need to endure the shittiness that will be inflicted upon the squadron.

[jice]

What kind of back-end safety analysis are you planning on? Have you got a real statistician to validate the method and results? (Serious question, not a spear) Will there be a column for “how much did you lie in order for this thing to look normal?”

Back end analysis is something aircrew is great at, but for most of us involves fistfuls of singles.

[Magnum]

ORM should be laser etched into a sheet of stainless steel with all the "points" already selected.  I can count on one finger the number of times that sheet made a difference in someone flying.  And that one time was someone in disagreement with leadership trying to make a point.

[Nuke77]

We have an ORM sheet under glass on the step desk. Flight leads tally it up and tell the 1CO’s, who write it on the flight auth (for record keeping) and tell the SOF. If it needs FS/DO or higher approval the SOF makes the phone call. It’s a simple a process as you can make it. No need to church it up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gearhog]

9 hours ago, Standby said:

Resistance is futile, the future is here. I'm not senior enough to have an aid (AIDS is different, recently got educated on that through green dot training) but if someone wants to log 69+ ORM cuts a day for the remainder of my time in the seat, I'll give you like...a couple bucks or something. I have done that in the past, but performing a manual input and parsing that amount of data isn't feasible.

For the haters...I guess be glad you have your current system and don't need to endure the shittiness that will be inflicted upon the squadron.

Not hating, I know you're just doing you're supposed to. I'm just fatigued with leadership's fascination with and addiction to electronic data collection, be it ORM, MICT, GTIMS, PEX, ASIMS, surveys, etc, etc, etc. All so they can walk over to HQ and present it to more senior leadership in hopes of an "Attaboy!" from people who pretend to be interested in it for 30 sec during a staff meeting. Let's face facts, none of this changes anything for the flyers. We've never cancelled for an ORM score at step time, we're just told to be "extra safe."

[pawnman]

15 hours ago, Pooter said:

Never heard of somebody calling up the sup/sof to change their ORM score post-step.  Is this a thing I'm not aware of?

We have a block for ETICs longer than an hour.  I've never explicitly asked Top 3 to update my ORM, but it's a factor that you don't become aware of until after step.

[Hawg15]

5 hours ago, torqued said:

Let's face facts, none of this changes anything for the flyers. We've never cancelled for an ORM score at step time, we're just told to be "extra safe

This. If it requires approval for the points it’s goes like this:

“you feeling okay to fly?”

“Yeah” 

“Cleared to step”

[HossHarris]

If you craft the orm sheet for your squadron correctly, you can never add up enough points for management involvement .....

 

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by HossHarris

[SurelySerious]

39 minutes ago, pawnman said:

We have a block for ETICs longer than an hour.  I've never explicitly asked Top 3 to update my ORM, but it's a factor that you don't become aware of until after step.

Checks. Sounds like most of you guys don’t routinely sit in the jet for three hours for maintenance troubleshooting in 100° heat on your five hour sortie that had you show 4 hours before takeoff. MX slip loses your tanker,  your range time, and your coordinated mission training. 

“Mr Gp cc says he thinks you should still fly duration because you can ‘still get some training.’”

”Broken, confirm you want me to burn 120k and do patterns during my 14th hour of duty day?”

”Yeah, you’ll still get pattern work. “

”Well Mr GP cc, this ORM sheet you signed off on says that’s not smart.”

[SurelySerious]

21 minutes ago, HossHarris said:

If you craft the orm sheet for your squadron correctly, you can never add up enough points for management involvement .....

 

 

That’s absolutely what we did when they wanted a new one down range...based on the heavy handed involvement typically evident (as above), I don’t think management ever actually ran the numbers to see what would get them involved. 

[Danger41]

Has anyone ever showed up to fly and thought everything was good and after filling out the form realized things weren’t good? I ask because some people think that sheet is crazy important and others (like me) just rely on decision making and actually asking the crew how they feel.

And the OG will get on your case if you canceled in that situation? Wtf?

[matmacwc]

I had it blow up 1 time, it took OG approval.  The SQ/DO was sitting top 3 and cancelled us at step.

[MechGov]

What kind of back-end safety analysis are you planning on? Have you got a real statistician to validate the method and results? (Serious question, not a spear) Will there be a column for “how much did you lie in order for this thing to look normal?”
Back end analysis is something aircrew is great at, but for most of us involves fistfuls of singles.

Also curious. Our ORM sheet is entirely qualitative and there are no numbers/figures of merit that automatically drive ORM categories into L/M/H/E. It’s AC’s discretion.

All I’ve seen safety do is compile trends for crew ID’d top risks. Even then, I only think I’ve seen them do this 2-3 times. Then the shop changes out and the fad goes away.

[SurelySerious]

1 hour ago, Danger41 said:

Has anyone ever showed up to fly and thought everything was good and after filling out the form realized things weren’t good? I ask because some people think that sheet is crazy important and others (like me) just rely on decision making and actually asking the crew how they feel.

And the OG will get on your case if you canceled in that situation? Wtf?

The common sense in Top 3 is sometimes less common. I don’t think it’s important for experienced people so much, I can ID my top risks and consider mitigation plans without it; younger guys it can be helpful sometimes.

However, sometimes it’s a nice reminder to the higher ups when they don’t for whatever reason see the value in curtailing/cancelling. 

^plus, yes, some communities have way more of this than others. 

Edited September 13, 2019 by SurelySerious

[Bender]

Maybe we (USAF) should set up a safety center. I mean between this confusion and the Class A accidents over the last few years, seems like as good of a time as any!

~Bendy