panchbarnes Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Did a forum search for this incident and nothing came up. I'm sure there is more to the story than what this article presented, but talk about luck and timing... 2013 F/A-18 crash: Out of fuel, out of time and one chance to land https://www.stripes.com/news/navy/2013-f-a-18-crash-out-of-fuel-out-of-time-and-one-chance-to-land-1.277698 The pilot of the F/A-18 Super Hornet hurriedly flipped switches and pushed levers. The aviator in the backseat leaned forward, straining to see the flight deck floating in the distance. The jet's right engine had locked up, its landing gear had jammed, and the main fuel tank was almost empty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ratner Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 I won't impugn the pilot based on one article. But in a hypothetical scenario based only on the facts laid out in the article, the hypothetical pilot seems to have made a couple pretty bad decisions. And if navs were real people, that hypothetical nav would have good reason to be pretty pissed for the bonus lifetime of back pain. Glad they both lived, hope someone had beer waiting for them after that one. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toro Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 The backseat aviator, unaware the pilot had lost control, leaned forward to see how far away the ship was. Suddenly a violent thrust blew him into the sky. The pilot had pulled the ejection handle without giving him a warning. Biggest foul of the entire story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 If only he had another crew member to help him with his decision matrix... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sputnik Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 I hear they're looking at adding an FE station to the Hornet. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Interesting article. Is it normal for a Rear Admiral to, for lack of a better term, "micromanage" the flight ops like this? Not to Monday-morning QB the thing, but it seems like up to this point, the folks in the aircraft and the folks in the tower were getting things taken care of. Seconds later, the voice of Rear Adm. Michael Manazir broke into the conversation. The commander of the Eisenhower carrier strike group had been monitoring radio chatter. He had heard enough. "I want you to send 206 to Masirah right now," Manazir said, referring to the jet and an airfield in Oman. The Super Hornet, now just 11 miles from the Eisenhower, turned toward Masirah, more than 280 miles away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpharatz Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 If only he had another crew member to help him with his decision matrix... Actually not a bad idea depending on how you define "crew member". I think some of this is already in the works and could be modified for fighter types too. (If it isn't already in the F-35 and Pigasus) The next generation of airliners should have video throughout the hull; in the cabin, the cockpit and at various places outside on control surfaces etc. The avionics should be drone capable (remotely flyable). There should be video monitored stations throughout the plane like airborne fire alarms that anyone; pilot, passenger, flight attendant could activate if they sense something wrong. When activated a data link would open to ground based monitors who can evaluate and take over if necessary. All of this data could piggyback on the telemetry that already exists to monitor the engines etc. This would allow cost savings by eliminating one pilot on at least regional type airplanes that don't operate over water. .................................No more "snatched" airplanes for one thing" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breckey Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 How much extra satellite bandwidth would you need to bring this capability to every commercial airliner? Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Actually not a bad idea depending on how you define "crew member". I think some of this is already in the works and could be modified for fighter types too. (If it isn't already in the F-35 and Pigasus) The next generation of airliners should have video throughout the hull; in the cabin, the cockpit and at various places outside on control surfaces etc. The avionics should be drone capable (remotely flyable). There should be video monitored stations throughout the plane like airborne fire alarms that anyone; pilot, passenger, flight attendant could activate if they sense something wrong. When activated a data link would open to ground based monitors who can evaluate and take over if necessary. All of this data could piggyback on the telemetry that already exists to monitor the engines etc. This would allow cost savings by eliminating one pilot on at least regional type airplanes that don't operate over water. .................................No more "snatched" airplanes for one thing" Or, you know...the guy in the back seat...since the article repeatedly talks about the pilot doing things without consulting the NFO along for the ride, to include the decision to bail out and the decision to start the APU with the same accumulator that emergency extends the gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HU&W Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 (edited) That was a tough read. They got REALLY lucky. Young bucks and future studs, take this story as a lesson. Know your GK. Understand your systems, especially what happens to them when something happens that's not routine. Understand how your airplane interacts with the world around it, according to the laws of physics and aerodynamics, in normal and abnormal configurations. Work with your crew. Mostly, never let someone outside your jet fly it for you. Of course, these guys didn't do any of that and they still made it back. Edited to add: My comments are based on the article as written and my own experience. That said, I highly doubt the accuracy of the media's portrayal of this incident. I'm mostly just glad that two fellow aviators made it out OK when things went horribly wrong. Edited April 14, 2014 by HU&W 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guineapigfury Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 That was a tough read. They got REALLY lucky. Young bucks and future studs, take this story as a lesson. Know your GK. Understand your systems, especially what happens to them when something happens that's not routine. Understand how your airplane interacts with the world around it, according to the laws of physics and aerodynamics, in normal and abnormal configurations. Work with your crew. Mostly, never let someone outside your jet fly it for you. Of course, these guys didn't do any of that and they still made it back. So much this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreasySideUp Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 I'm sure there is more to the story than what this article presented, but talk about luck and timing... Yep. Way more. Biggest foul of the entire story He could have delayed and said "Eject, Eject, Eject" allowing the plane to continue rolling out of control. This delay would have put them nose down, inverted, below 1000' when they exited the jet, or he could pull the handles at less than 90 degrees bank as soon as he realized the jet was out of control. They would be morts if he delayed any longer. The WSO is extremely happy he was ejected from the jet when he was. It is easy to second guess a newspaper article. The story is way better first hand. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bergman Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Yep. Way more. He could have delayed and said "Eject, Eject, Eject" allowing the plane to continue rolling out of control. This delay would have put them nose down, inverted, below 1000' when they exited the jet, or he could pull the handles at less than 90 degrees bank as soon as he realized the jet was out of control. They would be morts if he delayed any longer. The WSO is extremely happy he was ejected from the jet when he was. It is easy to second guess a newspaper article. The story is way better first hand. Make sure it gets into your book of stories! (if/when you ever write it...which you should) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreasySideUp Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Make sure it gets into your book of stories! (if/when you ever write it...which you should) Patience.... I need an ending first to the story of all stories.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azimuth Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Patience.... I need an ending first to the story of all stories.... It depends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddy Spike Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Interesting article. Is it normal for a Rear Admiral to, for lack of a better term, "micromanage" the flight ops like this? Not to Monday-morning QB the thing, but it seems like up to this point, the folks in the aircraft and the folks in the tower were getting things taken care of. I can't speak for boat ops, but I can tell you the Navy values rank over experience. A specific example that comes to mind is SAR. During most flight briefs, when the topic of On Scene Commander comes up, there's usually a 1-2 minute discussion on who the highest ranking member in the flight is regardless of flight position. I was in a mass red air brief at Fallon where an aircraft was designated as the overall SAR on scene commander because a shoe clerk Admiral was highest ranking as the passenger in the back seat of a Super Hornet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brabus Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I was in a mass red air brief at Fallon where an aircraft was designated as the overall SAR on scene commander because a shoe clerk Admiral was highest ranking as the passenger in the back seat of a Super Hornet. W...T...F. No common sense allowed there apparently. I once had a 1 star direct me (via the SOF) to un-divert because he was freaking out about the lack of security at the civilian divert field. I told the SOF to tell him no and continued the approach at the other field. Never got any flak for it (because my leadership injected some reality into this dude), but I was still pissed that this guy ordered a jet he's not flying to do something that he wanted, even though it was not a correct or safe decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElLoco Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 un-divert Classic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BolterKing Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 (edited) The pilots is a good friend, was glad to have him back with his wife and girls. There were a lot of mistakes made, and too many senior leaders sticking their fingers in the pie. Even without a mx det in Khar, most guys would have taken a divert. The Admiral is a great guy, and he didn't want a blue water situation either when he called for them to divert (against the air wing wanting them back at the boat). Admiral is a great pilot too. Admittedly the crew could have put their foot down and just taken a course of action, but as we all know that can be easier said than done. It's even harder in a deployed carrier environment where it may be days or weeks to fetch a hurt bird/crew. The FADEC on Superhornet engines is a double edge sword. It's great when it works, but if you need to limp and trash an engine to save the plane... It won't let you. This emergency was also compounded by a very subtle, and until now almost completely unknown quirk of the Superhornet.... When the probe is out fuel will only gravity feed from the wings once the LO FUEL warning trips open all valves. Until then you have trapped gas in the wings. Even once it starts to gravity feed, it's at too slow a rate or keep the fires lit. Almost no one knew this, and only a few sentences buried in NATOPS make mention of it. Classic Swiss cheese event, compounded by leadership micromanagement and failures, in a complicated environment. I'm just glad they got out. I can't speak for boat ops, but I can tell you the Navy values rank over experience. A specific example that comes to mind is SAR. During most flight briefs, when the topic of On Scene Commander comes up, there's usually a 1-2 minute discussion on who the highest ranking member in the flight is regardless of flight position. I was in a mass red air brief at Fallon where an aircraft was designated as the overall SAR on scene commander because a shoe clerk Admiral was highest ranking as the passenger in the back seat of a Super Hornet. 100% accurate. Seen it happen with FAC(A) crews in the flight. Edited April 19, 2014 by BolterKing 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azimuth Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 On a different Navy/Hornet note... https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-blue-angels-commander-20140418,0,6710044.story?track=rss#axzz2zIQkKQtV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BolterKing Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Oh look, the Navy fired another senior officer. This is my shocked face. The best anyone can do anymore is break even. It turns great leaders into terrified yes men, and the ones that do really lead with a warrior mind set usually leave the Navy if they survive their command tour (we don't promote bold warriors). There are exceptions to the rule, but they wonder why junior officers are bailing left and right and why morale is in the toilet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddy Spike Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Oh look, the Navy fired another senior officer. This is my shocked face. The best anyone can do anymore is break even. It turns great leaders into terrified yes men, and the ones that do really lead with a warrior mind set usually leave the Navy if they survive their command tour (we don't promote bold warriors). There are exceptions to the rule, but they wonder why junior officers are bailing left and right and why morale is in the toilet. The promotion system in the navy (FITREP ranking) is all fucked up as it is and promotes ridiculous amounts of backstabbing amongst bros. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toro Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 The promotion system in the navy (FITREP ranking) is all fucked up as it is and promotes ridiculous amounts of backstabbing amongst bros. How? It prevents bullshit firewall reports by basically using a standard of deviation for raters. How does it promote backstabbing any more than our OPR stratification system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddy Spike Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 How? It prevents bullshit firewall reports by basically using a standard of deviation for raters. How does it promote backstabbing any more than our OPR stratification system? Because the #1 FITREP becomes an obsession and dudes backstab each other to get it - especially if they don't. Even going from #1 to #2 is poison in the promotion system. It pits dudes against each other because it is the sole focus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BolterKing Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Another pitfall of the system is that the rating officer only has so many of each category to give out. So say in a group of 8 officers, only one can get an EP, two or three will get an MP and the rest P (early promote, must promote, promotable). Where this becomes a total fallacy is if the rating officer knows a guy is getting out. He'll give the "quitter" a P so as not to "waste" an EP. Thus you get guys getting top tier ratings, that otherwise wouldn't have. Then the quitter leaves having a stellar track record then showing his last FITREP as all of a sudden becoming a shitbag. That follows him/her into a reserve career. It's so common that promotion boards will try and overlook it, but can be a deal breaker for promotion or selection if the board needs a tie breaker. I recently saw an entire group of great dudes all get P's on their way out, and the second to last performer scores an EP. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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