AFI 1-1 (AF Culture/Standards)

[BattleRattle]

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123313864

Regarding junior members addressing more senior members: 1.6.4. Respect for Authority. Junior personnel shall employ a courteous and respectful bearing and mode of speech toward senior personnel. When addressed by an officer senior to them, junior personnel shall stand (unless seated at mess or unless circumstances make such action impracticable or inappropriate). [[i can't wait to reference this the next time I pass thru the Deid]]

Link to new AFI: http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI1-1.pdf

[pawnman]

http://www.af.mil/ne...sp?id=123313864

Regarding junior members addressing more senior members: 1.6.4. Respect for Authority. Junior personnel shall employ a courteous and respectful bearing and mode of speech toward senior personnel. When addressed by an officer senior to them, junior personnel shall stand (unless seated at mess or unless circumstances make such action impracticable or inappropriate). [[i can't wait to reference this the next time I pass thru the Deid]]

Link to new AFI: http://www.e-publish...pubs/AFI1-1.pdf

I'm a little disappointed that it no longer explicitly states that the junior member will stand at attention when addressing a senior officer.

[Danny Noonin]

I'm a little disappointed that it no longer explicitly states that the junior member will stand at attention when addressing a senior officer.

That was in a different reg (Protocol).

[M2]

"Air Force Culture?!?" WTF? What happened to the good old "Customs and Courtesies?!?"

[17D_guy]

Is there a move back to the regulation format vs the AFI touchy feely? I've heard so many crusty-(insert rank here) decry the move away from AFR as watering down everything.

Another thing I'll have to read through to argue with Chiefs. Also, writing culture down is.. iffy at best.

[Danger41]

I'm a little disappointed that people can't figure out how to act in the military without an almighty AFI telling them what to do.

Just show some freakin' decency and do what you know is right without hiding behind a reg. IMHO.

[M2]

I'm a little disappointed that people can't figure out how to act in the military without an almighty AFI telling them what to do.

Just show some freakin' decency and do what you know is right without hiding behind a reg. IMHO.

Ain't nuthing new, back in "the day" we had AFR 30-1 Air Force Standards that came in a handy little pocket-sized version for the troops. I still have one, dated 4 May 1983, that laid down the law on how people were expected to act. Straightforward and to the point, none of this bullshit "culture" crap.

I also have a copy of AFP 35-49 Leadership that I carried as a lieutenant and junior captain. It was dated 1 September 1985 and was "a basic guide for the new and for the aspiring Air Force leader." It stated the USAF leadership concept centered around two fundamental elements: The mission and the people (in that order). It was something I would carry and occasionally dig out to read every once and a while.

Both would be good for today's young officers. Much more than this "culture" bullshit.

[Champ Kind]

Shoe Clerk CONOPS.

[guineapigfury]

Apparently if you are a Staff Sergeant or below, you don't have to tell your supervisor if you are convicted of a crime. Am I reading that wrong?

2.10. Self Reporting Criminal Conviction. If you are above the pay grade of E-6, on active duty, or in an active status in a Reserve Component and are convicted of any violation of a criminal law, you must report, in writing, the conviction to your first-line military supervisor within 15 days of the date of conviction. Depending on the level of your security clearance, there may be additional, more specific reporting requirements (e.g., reporting arrests, in addition to convictions) which must be met. (AFPD 36-29, Military Standards).

[jetip]

I'm a little disappointed that it no longer explicitly states that the junior member will stand at attention when addressing a senior officer.

It still does (at least says will stand):

1.6.4. Respect for Authority. Junior personnel shall employ a courteous and respectful bearing and mode of speech toward senior personnel. When addressed by an officer senior to them, junior personnel shall stand (unless seated at mess or unless circumstances make such action impracticable or inappropriate). Junior personnel shall walk or ride to the left of senior personnel whom they are accompanying. Senior personnel enter an aircraft or automobile last and leave first.

Edited August 14, 2012 by jetip

[pawnman]

It still does (at least says will stand):

1.6.4. Respect for Authority. Junior personnel shall employ a courteous and respectful bearing and mode of speech toward senior personnel. When addressed by an officer senior to them, junior personnel shall stand (unless seated at mess or unless circumstances make such action impracticable or inappropriate). Junior personnel shall walk or ride to the left of senior personnel whom they are accompanying. Senior personnel enter an aircraft or automobile last and leave first.

That's what I'm saying. The reg where they pulled this one from used to direct not just standing, but standing at attention.

[Fox15Echo]

Interesting little bit of information left out in the new AFI regarding the role of the first sergeant.....

AFI 1-1: 1.7.2........The first sergeant works directly for and derives authority from the unit commander, and serves as the commander’s critical link within the unit for all matters concerning its members.

AFI 36-2113 19 Jan 07 (Certified 4 Jan 10): 1.1....The first sergeant works directly for and derive their authority from the unit commander at home station, deployed commander when deployed, and serves as the commander’s critical link within the unit for all matters concerning enlisted members.

The first sergeant is in no way in charge of or has authority over officers. The position of first sergeant is recognized with respect due to the selection process, tradition, and of course, fear of a good ass chewing by your commander after the shirt goes whining to his boss. However, similar to chiefs and other senior enlisted, there are a lot of first sergeants that believe they have authority over officers and fail to adhere to AFI by not recognizing the superior rank of officers when addressing them.

Also of note is that this new regulation references the older regs but does not supersede them. So in my mind, per AFI 34-1201 8.2.2. Juniors shall stand at attention (unless seated at mess or unless circumstances make such action impracticable or inappropriate) when addressed by an officer senior to them

[Guest]

Interesting little bit of information left out in the new AFI regarding the role of the first sergeant.....

Nice catch. UFB

This should be on the list of things the new CSAF should care about. If he has a hair on his ass he will square this shit away pronto.

One 6.9 minute conversation with CMSAF Roy with clear expectations and a timeline that sounds something like "with immediate effect" should suffice.

[Top Dollar]

2.15.3. You must avoid offensive and/or inappropriate behavior on social networking platforms and through other forms of communication that could bring discredit upon on the Air Force or you as a member of the Air Force, or that would otherwise be harmful to good order and discipline, respect for authority, unit cohesion, morale, mission accomplishment, or the trust and confidence that the public has in the United States Air Force.

2.15.4. Airmen who provide commentary and opinions on internet blogs that they host or on others’ internet blogs, may not place comments on those blog sites, which reasonably can be anticipated, or are intended, to degrade morale, good order, and discipline of any members or units in the U.S. Armed Forces, are Service-discrediting, or would degrade the trust and confidence of the public in the United States Air Force.

Hmm this sounds a lot like the content on these forums. I, for one, welcome our new overlords...

[zach braff]

Interesting little bit of information left out in the new AFI regarding the role of the first sergeant.....

AFI 1-1: 1.7.2........The first sergeant works directly for and derives authority from the unit commander, and serves as the commander’s critical link within the unit for all matters concerning its members.

AFI 36-2113 19 Jan 07 (Certified 4 Jan 10): 1.1....The first sergeant works directly for and derive their authority from the unit commander at home station, deployed commander when deployed, and serves as the commander’s critical link within the unit for all matters concerning enlisted members.

The first sergeant is in no way in charge of or has authority over officers.

Nor is the first sergeant in charge of have authority over enlisted members (other than as a SNCO). Not a fan of the new reg but I don't have any problem with this bit. In fact I like that it doesn't reference enlisted vs officer. His/her "authority" as the reg references isn't about being in charge of people, it's authority to manage certain commander programs. A good first sergeant is a link within the unit for all matters. Yes, his primary concern is as the link for enlisted folks, but as an officer I've benefitted on numerous occasions from the resources of a good first shirt. I'm sure there are a few bad apples out there, or maybe I've been lucky, but I've always enjoyed a great relationship with my units' shirts - it's the chiefs and hopeful chiefs you gotta watch out for!

zb

[Champ Kind]

And all this time I thought it was the first sergeant's job to spam my Outlook inbox.

[Blackjack]

I'm a little disappointed that it no longer explicitly states that the junior member will stand at attention when addressing a senior officer.

I'm curious to know why you think this. If a junior member stand when addressing you that is a sign of respect, for the rank at least. Why does it have to be at the position of attention? Does it give you some sort of hard on? Do you stand at attention when you speak with your CC? I doubt you do. Do you expect a Lt to stand at attention when talking to a Capt? The military is kinda draconian in it's ways now compared to modern times.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Blackjack

[magnetfreezer]

I'm curious to know why you think this. If a junior member stand when addressing you that is a sign of respect, for the rank at least. Why does it have to be at the position of attention? Does it give you some sort of hard on? Do you stand at attention when you speak with your CC? I doubt you do. Do you expect a Lt to stand at attention when talking to a Capt? The military is kinda draconian in it's ways now compared to modern times.

No, it's a useful tactic against E-5s who feel they outrank an O-4 and can therefore yell at them from across the chow hall.

[pawnman]

I'm curious to know why you think this. If a junior member stand when addressing you that is a sign of respect, for the rank at least. Why does it have to be at the position of attention? Does it give you some sort of hard on? Do you stand at attention when you speak with your CC? I doubt you do. Do you expect a Lt to stand at attention when talking to a Capt? The military is kinda draconian in it's ways now compared to modern times.

Yeah, it's super-draconican. I mean, this whole saluting thing? Way outdated, we should just be able to give fist-bumps and be on with our day. And calling people "sir" is SO Civil War, when "Bro" or "dude" or "dawg" conveys the same meaning.

Listen: If I walk into may commander's office to talk to him about something, I start at attention until he tells me otherwise. Same for my DO. Do I expect a Lt to stand at attention for a Capt? Not really, unless there's some sort of disciplinary action taking place...but generally I don't expect Lts to salute Capts either. I do expect that this is an EXCELLENT way for officers to exert their authority over the enlisted troops who suddenly feel like they outrank everyone on the base because they work for the OG/CC or WG/CC. It's not something I enforced on a regular basis, but it was handy to have it written into a regulation so when you really needed a way to deal with a REMF, you had one that was entirely within the bounds of the regs and you could defend yourself when he cried to his O-6 boss.

[Blackjack]

Yeah, it's super-draconican. I mean, this whole saluting thing? Way outdated, we should just be able to give fist-bumps and be on with our day. And calling people "sir" is SO Civil War, when "Bro" or "dude" or "dawg" conveys the same meaning.

Listen: If I walk into may commander's office to talk to him about something, I start at attention until he tells me otherwise. Same for my DO. Do I expect a Lt to stand at attention for a Capt? Not really, unless there's some sort of disciplinary action taking place...but generally I don't expect Lts to salute Capts either. I do expect that this is an EXCELLENT way for officers to exert their authority over the enlisted troops who suddenly feel like they outrank everyone on the base because they work for the OG/CC or WG/CC. It's not something I enforced on a regular basis, but it was handy to have it written into a regulation so when you really needed a way to deal with a REMF, you had one that was entirely within the bounds of the regs and you could defend yourself when he cried to his O-6 boss.

Saluting? You seriously want to bring that up? I know more officers who will go out of their way to avoid it than enlisted. There are many enlisted who will track you down just so you have to salute. You do realize it's a sign of MUTUAL respect right?

If you go to the commander or DO and start at attention good for you. Most people don't unless it's disciplinary. You as an officer have the option of putting someone at attention if you desire. Hell, a SSgt can put an A1C at attention if he wants. You don't need an AFI for that.

You don't expect a Lt to salute a Capt? You can't be serious. I guess you don't think the Major should salute the Colonel either. I think you painted a pretty clear picture that you look at the enlisted as second class citizens and that's sad.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Blackjack

[Danny Noonin]

Listen: If I walk into may commander's office to talk to him about something, I start at attention until he tells me otherwise. Same for my DO.

You're fucking kidding me, right? Do they laugh at you?

I expect a Lt to stand at attention for a Capt? Not really, unless there's some sort of disciplinary action taking place...but generally I don't expect Lts to salute Capts either.

You're making no sense. So your stance is "not really" (i.e. something other than "hell no") on standing at attention when a lieutenant is simply addressed by a captain, but you don't expect a salute?

do expect that this is an EXCELLENT way for officers to exert their authority over the enlisted troops...

No it's not. It's a fucking horrible way. What's the matter with you? You need a reg to require those junior to you to stand at attention such that you can "exert your authority"? Are you really this big of a pussy as an officer that you can't exert your authority any other way?

There is one thing--and one thing only--that the 'stand at attention' line in the regs (it's the protocol reg, by the way) is good for and that is this: when someone junior bows up to you with that chickenshit "we must adhere to standards or the enemy will win" argument to point out failures in uniform wear or mustache width (which along with PT tests seem to be the only things that fall into the SNCO "standards" category these days), you can throw this "standard" back in their face because sure as shit they won't be standing at attention by default when you're talking to them because that's absurd. If "standards" are that important regardless of context that TSgt Snuffy can throw his "I am charged by the CSAF to enforce standards because I am an NCO" crap, then I sure as shit can use this as a teaching moment to point out to him that if that's the case, he should be standing at attention or the terrorists will win. It tends to put "standards" in a bit of perspective.

I know more officers who will go out of their way to avoid it than enlisted.

I hear this all the time from NCOs but I've never in my entire life seen an officer go out of his way to avoid a salute. Not even once. And I've been around quite a while. I believe that it happens, but I don't get why. How fucking difficult is it to salute? Why is it a big deal for anyone, O or E?

Edited August 28, 2012 by Danny Noonin

[Blackjack]

I hear this all the time from NCOs but I've never in my entire life seen an officer go out of his way to avoid a salute. Not even once. And I've been around quite a while. I believe that it happens, but I don't get why. How ######ing difficult is it to lift your arm up?

I have been around a while myself. While it might not be the majority of officers I have seen it happen on more than one occasion. I watched a Capt cross the street when an enlisted guy was approaching. When the enlisted guy crossed the street the Capt crosses the street again and continues on his way. Now I don't know for sure why he did that but it sure as hell gave the impression that he was trying to avoid it. I don;t get why either, it's not hard. The only thing that I can think of is they are tired of constantly having to salute.

[Danny Noonin]

I have been around a while myself. While it might not be the majority of officers I have seen it happen on more than one occasion. I watched a Capt cross the street when an enlisted guy was approaching.

Okay whatever. Is that shit truly common or are there just some egregious examples like yours that grow into legends? Cause I can give you a million examples of Es going to some hilarious extremes to avoid me but I've never seen the opposite.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Danny Noonin

[Blackjack]

I didn't say you didn't see that particular example. The point I was making was on the leap you made from that one egregious story to saying that "I know more officers who will go out of their way to avoid it than enlisted." Which is total bullshit and you know it.

Copy you changed your story. But you're really saying it's based on "the number of enlisted vs officers?" Really? With a straight face? Come on dude. So you are suggesting a vast conspiracy on the part of officers to avoid being saluted so that we don't have to return the salute? Why would that be exactly? Come to think of it, it makes sense. Along the same lines, I actually prefer to avoid all verbal conversations with enlisted so that they don't have to worry about calling me "sir". That's way too uncomfortable for everyone.

Oh, wait, you changed your story back again. In the very same post even. So first it was more officers who don't want to salute. Then it was enlisted (but only because of the numbers). Now it's officers again. Nice.

Like I said, I have no doubt there are some clown officers that avoid salutes. But that's not even remotely common let alone the majority in this stupid O/E game that you're trying to start here. The one that doesn't exist in real life except for with those who are bitter and/or have no self confidence whatsoever.

I never said it was some big conspiracy. I don't even think it's that common. I simply stated that I, me personally, know more officers than enlisted who will play the dodging game. Looking back I'm not even sure why I brought it up. I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the logic that a Lt shouldn't have to salute a Capt.

[Danger41]

I never said it was some big conspiracy. I don't even think it's that common. I simply stated that I, me personally, know more officers than enlisted who will play the dodging game. Looking back I'm not even sure why I brought it up. I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the logic that a Lt shouldn't have to salute a Capt Double Lt.

CGOPA?

IMHO, the CGO's should (PREPARE TO HAVE YOUR BLUE KOOL-AID SOAKED BRAINS EXPLODE) exercise judgement on saluting each other. If I'm a Lt going out to lunch with some Capt bros and meet them in the parking lot, I'm not going to salute them when they show up to my car. If I'm walking past them into the building and there are others around, I'll salute them. Just exercise some judgement and common sense. I think they're working that into PME in the next courseware update so it should be easier to grasp.