10percenttruth Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 YGBFSM. Put on your man-pants; this is the military. No, you're right. The hands-down best way to man an absolutely vital community is to start everyone in it off by having a room full of people cringe at the "shitty assignment" they just got. I'm not saying everyone should get a trophy, far from it. It's pilot training, there can be only one number one. Got it. But hell, filling a MWS full of folks who don't want to be there & were just handed a public slice of failure pie seems like a bad way to motivate young dudes. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDonut Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 (edited) YGBFSM. Put on your man-pants; this is the military. Since lining up by class rank and getting issued your MWS wasn't military enough? Life's tough, wear a helmet. A helmet? In a shipping container? In all seriousness, you're right. Your MWS is what you make of it (for the most part). But hell, filling a MWS full of folks who don't want to be there & were just handed a public slice of failure pie seems like a bad way to motivate young dudes. Back to the topic, It's difficult to prove your legitimacy as an MWS if your people have little buy in, and it starts a vicious cycle that makes it a "shitty assignment". It's also ######ed up when you get communities off-loading their problem children on the "must-fills". The RQ-170 program is gaining their dudes through an interview process, and it's not a bad way to go. But then again it's a completely different beast. If I were facing a robot, I would definitely try to work my way in that direction. Edited October 4, 2014 by McDonut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rmarsh Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Good grief, this is all what I'm railing on about, the Air Force never owed anyone a trophy or an F-16 or an assignment to Germany... Oh no, a guy dropped reapers in front of a room full of his friends... Pretty sure by that point in UPT you've overcome the fear of public humiliation. What about the guy that got services out of commissioning? Give a shit about him? I certainly don't, and neither do you...And I've seen both sides of the fence and there's the ones who bitch and those who couldn't be happier, it's all perspective. There are plenty of guys who can't wait to get into that shipping container and pickle off a couple AGM-114's, I mean, that may be the best part about Clovis... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger41 Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Well, I guess I'm not George Patton and think that people should be given a heads up beforehand if they're staring down the barrel of an assignment at the bottom of their dream sheet. It may be the military, but you don't have to treat people like dogshit just to fill a square (ref any thread about AFPC). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Pretty sure by that point in UPT you've overcome the fear of public humiliation. Obviously not, based on the wet diapers we've seen in this very thread and others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFM this Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 As it turns out, crushing someone's dreams in front of their friends and family and half the base tends to leave a mark. Who knew. YGBFSM. Put on your man-pants; this is the military. Ok, [says the guy that hasn't been there], and what would you propose is the Lesson Learned and Instructional Fix? Is this all on the whiny misfit toys? Or was something else that might have been executed with less Excellence and Integrity than called for? Sorry, man, the AF porked this one away wholesale. This is important: in 10 years from now, the RPA community will be ________. What's it going to look like? How professional, competent, able to integrate with other communities, provide meaningful support. These are vital questions if we want to avoid the diseases that plagued other communities that the AF decided to put into mushroom conditions. The current vector for the RPA community isn't awesome, imo. "Shut up and color" is a useful tool in certain circumstances. It was misapplied here, and the aftershocks will take a generation to settle out. I liked the job while I was there. I liked the job a lot more when guys around me started to get orders back to airplanes. The guy that get's services from his commissioning source can tell the AF "So Long and Thanks for All the Fish" after 4 years. Even the guys at UPT wouldn't have had much to complain about if the AF had said from the start that they had a follow on jet. But that's not what happened, is it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARIs 'R' Us Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Well, I guess I'm not George Patton and think that people should be given a heads up beforehand if they're staring down the barrel of an assignment at the bottom of their dream sheet. It may be the military, but you don't have to treat people like dogshit just to fill a square (ref any thread about AFPC). If it's assignment night, you either have a pretty good idea of where you stand, or you're an ignoramus. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!I remember one of my students sitting on the sidewalk outside the O-Club with his arms wrapped around his shins and his head on his knees sobbing because he got the only E-3. "My career is ruined!" We lost one of our classmates on assignment night. He was later found at the Pony, $1K poorer. Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvlax40 Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Ok, [says the guy that hasn't been there], and what would you propose is the Lesson Learned and Instructional Fix? Is this all on the whiny misfit toys? Or was something else that might have been executed with less Excellence and Integrity than called for? Sorry, man, the AF porked this one away wholesale. This is important: in 10 years from now, the RPA community will be ________. What's it going to look like? How professional, competent, able to integrate with other communities, provide meaningful support. These are vital questions if we want to avoid the diseases that plagued other communities that the AF decided to put into mushroom conditions. The current vector for the RPA community isn't awesome, imo. "Shut up and color" is a useful tool in certain circumstances. It was misapplied here, and the aftershocks will take a generation to settle out. I liked the job while I was there. I liked the job a lot more when guys around me started to get orders back to airplanes. The guy that get's services from his commissioning source can tell the AF "So Long and Thanks for All the Fish" after 4 years. Even the guys at UPT wouldn't have had much to complain about if the AF had said from the start that they had a follow on jet. But that's not what happened, is it? as a total and complete outsider, would it be safe to say that if there was a standardized time table for going RPA putting your time in and then getting back to an aircraft, would that help alleviate many of the issues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFM this Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 (edited) as a total and complete outsider, would it be safe to say that if there was a standardized time table for going RPA putting your time in and then getting back to an aircraft, would that help alleviate many of the issues? There doesn't have to be, and really there shouldn't be. There's no such timetable for ALO, white jets, staff, etc. ..for the most part anyway. If there aren't any TX seats, so be it. But the "one way door" party line was poison in the well. Remove that, and even TAMI is just another short notice turdball from AFPC and not much more (minus derailing careers and MWS experience and credibility issues, et al.). UPT Direct was just wrong from the word go, but they did really well nevertheless. I think that there should be a flow of manned MWS people through the RPA community, even when 18X'ers are fully manned. Edited October 4, 2014 by BFM this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 There doesn't have to be, and really there shouldn't be. There's no such timetable for ALO, white jets, staff, etc. ..for the most part anyway. If there aren't any TX seats, so be it. But the "one way door" party line was poison in the well. Remove that, and even TAMI is just another short notice turdball from AFPC and not much more (minus derailing careers and MWS experience and credibility issues, et al.). UPT Direct was just wrong from the word go, but they did really well nevertheless. I think that there should be a flow of manned MWS people through the RPA community, even when 18X'ers are fully manned. Disagree. We're producing ~150 18Xers per year now, once we're able to meet demand from that pipeline we should only have 11s flying RPAs on a voluntary basis. The claimed savings of producing an 18X vs a traditional pilot is $480k. The 18Xers have varying reasons why they chose the career field. Some are medically disqualified from flying, some don't want the UPT commitment, and some want to be part of what they view as the next generation of cutting edge airpower. They are all, in my experience, motivated to be going into the career field. Don't poison the well by non-voling 11s who are likely to express discontent and/or view themselves superior by virtue of being a "real pilot." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooseAg03 Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Don't poison the well by non-voling 11s who are likely to express discontent and/or view themselves superior by virtue of being a "real pilot." It's not just discontent over the job and being taken from an airplane, although that is the majority of my issue. The problem is that I now have no defined career path because nobody can tell me what will happen over the next few years. All you get from the RPA community is constant pressure to re-cat and give up the opportunity to ever fly an Air Force aircraft again. No thank you, I did not sign a 10 year ADSC for that kind of deal. I'm glad we have motivated 18x Lts in my squadron, they tend to take care of a lot of the queep that the rest of us would rather not mess with. However, I refuse to volunteer to do the same job along side guys who have a 40% shorter commitment any longer than I have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 It's not just discontent over the job and being taken from an airplane, although that is the majority of my issue. The problem is that I now have no defined career path because nobody can tell me what will happen over the next few years. All you get from the RPA community is constant pressure to re-cat and give up the opportunity to ever fly an Air Force aircraft again. No thank you, I did not sign a 10 year ADSC for that kind of deal. I'm glad we have motivated 18x Lts in my squadron, they tend to take care of a lot of the queep that the rest of us would rather not mess with. However, I refuse to volunteer to do the same job along side guys who have a 40% shorter commitment any longer than I have to. Exactly. Nor should you have to. Hopefully the 18X pipeline continues to expand and maybe the number of CAPs will eventually decrease (unlikely), allowing manning to be sourced purely from 18Xers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rmarsh Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Ok, [says the guy that hasn't been there], and what would you propose is the Lesson Learned and Instructional Fix? Is this all on the whiny misfit toys? Or was something else that might have been executed with less Excellence and Integrity than called for? Sorry, man, the AF porked this one away wholesale. This is important: in 10 years from now, the RPA community will be ________. What's it going to look like? How professional, competent, able to integrate with other communities, provide meaningful support. These are vital questions if we want to avoid the diseases that plagued other communities that the AF decided to put into mushroom conditions. The current vector for the RPA community isn't awesome, imo. "Shut up and color" is a useful tool in certain circumstances. It was misapplied here, and the aftershocks will take a generation to settle out. I liked the job while I was there. I liked the job a lot more when guys around me started to get orders back to airplanes. The guy that get's services from his commissioning source can tell the AF "So Long and Thanks for All the Fish" after 4 years. Even the guys at UPT wouldn't have had much to complain about if the AF had said from the start that they had a follow on jet. But that's not what happened, is it? Well the AF has already made the fix in my opinion by standing up the 18X training pipeline. Lt's in UPT no longer need fear the reaper on drop night, you go through the RPA undergrad program knowing full well what happens at the end. And these kids aren't butt-hurt, they're eager, trust me. You act as though every new 2Lt is a fragile baby bird who needs coddling, lest we crush his lifelong dream of killing MiGs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rmarsh Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 (edited) If Big Blue's only concern was caring for the wishes of cadets, there would be 10,000 fighter slots, and we wouldn't have a Mission Support Group. Getting the last assignment on a dream sheet is unfortunate, but it has to go to someone, and sitting in a fetal position outside the O-club on drop night is missing the forrest trough the trees. Driving the goat bus at Tinker or flying preds at Cannon is still better than sitting behind the customer service window at Hickam... Edited October 4, 2014 by Rmarsh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvlax40 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 again being an outsider, are the UAV drops based on position in class ie, bottom X percentage gets UAVs? or is it more like FAIPS where anyone anywhere can drop it? its interesting they are taking UPT guys for this role... doesnt the army have enlisted guys running their drones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDonut Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 UAVs don't drop anymore from UPT. They were dropping MC-12s for a little while, and they stopped that. Now a bunch of those guys will be shipped off to preds. Army does have enlisted operators, but those guys are... special sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurelySerious Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 doesnt the army have enlisted guys running their drones? True, but they play a different role, organic to Army commanders, than how the Air Force fleet functions (theater level asset under the Air Component, theoretically like any CAS or ISR asset). The enlisted/officer debate has gone on before, and there's no simple answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrodgsxr Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 The problem is that I now have no defined career path because nobody can tell me what will happen over the next few years. I'm glad we have motivated 18x Lts in my squadron, they tend to take care of a lot of the queep that the rest of us would rather not mess with. However, I refuse to volunteer to do the same job along side guys who have a 40% shorter commitment any longer than I have to. Refusing to be a team player might be why you have no "career path" Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooseAg03 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Refusing to be a team player might be why you have no "career path" So you're saying I have to sell out to RPAs to be a team player? Go f*ck yourself. I'm at work everyday flying my 6+ in the container. I don't have to kill my hope of getting back into a cockpit to be a team player. I'll take my chances and if an airplane isn't in my future, I'll bail. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rmarsh Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 (edited) So you're saying I have to sell out to RPAs to be a team player? Go f*ck yourself. I'm at work everyday flying my 6+ in the container. I don't have to kill my hope of getting back into a cockpit to be a team player. I'll take my chances and if an airplane isn't in my future, I'll bail. What would be selling out be? Re-cat to 18x from 11x? I get it, I really do, a follow-on to a cockpit is the best case scenario for those in RPA's that still have that option, but what about the meantime, "###### it, I really don't want to be here"? I've been in an a community where I flew twice a month and wanted more, and I've spent 40 hours a week in the box and wanted less, but I guess I don't see how you can set yourself up for those greener pastures by saying "a cockpit or I'm out"... Edited October 5, 2014 by Rmarsh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvlax40 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I will concede that I can sympathize with drone pilots for being stuck in the middle of discussions like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4NRJoCNHIs im throwing the bullshit flag on cost less then manned planes, and as these things get bigger and bigger with more autonomy we are only going to see them eclipse the F35 in terms of cost... the biggest driver in cost on the F35 is not the human in the cockpit, but the millions of lines of code that have to be written to work all the whiz-bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrodgsxr Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 So you're saying I have to sell out to RPAs to be a team player? Go f*ck yourself. I'm at work everyday flying my 6+ in the container. I don't have to kill my hope of getting back into a cockpit to be a team player. I'll take my chances and if an airplane isn't in my future, I'll bail. Recat'ng isn't the issue... It's your attitude. You gloat that the LTs are running your squadron while you just fly the line. No wonder why your cc doesn't give you a "career path". It takes more than just logging time in a GCS to do the mission and take care of people. Those OPRs, EPRs, decorations, schedules, form8s, deployments, inspections, training, and other queep don't just magically happen. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurelySerious Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 im throwing the bullshit flag on cost less then manned planes The acquisition cost is low now, the operating cost the AF shows people is low, but satellite bandwidth is expensive. Very. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooseAg03 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Recat'ng isn't the issue... It's your attitude. You gloat that the LTs are running your squadron while you just fly the line. No wonder why your cc doesn't give you a "career path". It takes more than just logging time in a GCS to do the mission and take care of people. Those OPRs, EPRs, decorations, schedules, form8s, deployments, inspections, training, and other queep don't just magically happen. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk I've got plenty of shop work that I'm responsible for. I'll let the gung-ho Lts who are looking to go to weapons school for RPAs go through and update academic slides, etc. Thats the queep I was referring to, LTs are definitely not "running the squadron." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvlax40 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 The acquisition cost is low now, the operating cost the AF shows people is low, but satellite bandwidth is expensive. Very. 160 - 180 airman required to run a drone, 100 to run an F-16, across the board the costs dont line up. 15 million to 55 million (drone-f16) acquisition cost now, but they are quickly driving past that with the new stealth and semi/fully-autonomous models. 80 extra people being paid on average annually 50k (im including all benefits/retirement etc) for an ADSC of 10 equals about the difference of price in acquisition cost.... you cant escape entropy lol sorry to derail the topic guys (linked included for pricing information) http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/02/27/10_things_you_didnt_know_about_drones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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