Lack of Flight Discipline

[nsplayr]

You ever fly with a dude trained to operate that aircraft at 1mm AGL?

Yep, every pilot in my unit is qualified in takeoffs and landings. So in those circumstances, they're adequately trained to briefly operate the airplane at 1mm AGL.

That was the point of my hyperbole...it's not about, "people are allowed to fly low in helos..." it's about doing so in appropriate circumstances. You're allowed to fly real f*cking low in a fixed wing aircraft right before you touchdown on an airfield, but generally not anywhere else. So in absolute terms whether it was "low" doesn't mean anything, it's about the context and the context should be unless it's mission-related, you shouldn't do it.

I've seen -15E's & Hogs do some wild LL passes for show of force/de-escalation events. Surely you've seen something similar in OEF? Granted this -64 dude appears to just be showing off, but I'm always willing to give a dude the benefit of the doubt and a single video NEVER tells he whole story.

Like I said, if it's mission related then cleared hot. This did not appear to be.

[Radio]

I could understand an A-10 showing some prescence for the guys on the ground...who might have been working with you/putting their lives in your hands all day without ever actually seeing you but trusting you had their backs.

But this Apache seems to have crashed on an established HLZ, for guys who probably regularly see all varieties of helos.

[Seriously]

If you're gonna shine your ass... you better not fuck it up.

[HeloDude]

I could understand an A-10 showing some prescence for the guys on the ground...who might have been working with you/putting their lives in your hands all day without ever actually seeing you but trusting you had their backs.

But this Apache seems to have crashed on an established HLZ, for guys who probably regularly see all varieties of helos.

Irrelevant on both arguments--you either break the regs/fly in a reckless manner, or you don't. It doesn't matter if you're an AF A-10 guy or an Army Apache guy...rules are rules.

The severity of the punishment IMHO should be determined by: What was the final result? Could people have been hurt?...especially those not in the aircraft? Is there a history of these guys breaking the rules?

[Hacker]

Recommend you guys don't go crucifying the crew from a flight discipline angle without knowing all the facts. "Hearing" that a maneuver is prohibited, or believing that a crew was not qualified to do something, and then all of the finger-pointing, "I-wouldn'ta-done-thats", and armchair courtrooming that goes with it is a bunch of crap....especially when the known facts don't yet support it. It doesn't frankly do anyone any good, except perhaps to satisfy some folks' innner superiority-complex-fueled need to point out someone else that appears to be doing something wrong (no different than the mindset of the uniform infraction zealots just waiting to pounce on the next untucked PT shirt or sunglasses on someone's nugget).

Using Bud Holland videos as an example of poor airmanship and lack of flight discipline, and the disastrous potential consequences of those attitudes and actions, is excellent, because he is a well established, well researched case of it.

I'd reserve snap judgment (and use of it as another example of poor airmanship and lack of flight discipline) on others, like this Apache video, until the actual facts are known.

If it's eventually determined that they were in the wrong, then cleared hot. Until then, master arm safe to prevent frat.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Hacker

[Guest]

That totally depends on the situation though. My airplane is certified and verified to fly at 1mm above the ground in the instant right after takeoff and right before landing. That's lower than snakeshit! So is that my minimum altitude if I wanna do a flyby for some Army dudes?

Hyperbole yes but you get my point...even if you're allowed to fly low or high or fast or slow or whatever, it should be done for a mission-related reason. I've yet to hear of a mission that involves showing off max performance aircraft capes at random to dudes on the ground in some kind of seat of your pants airshow.

Your example is awesome. About what I would expect from my neighbor or some ROTC cadet. Or a nav without access to flight controls.

Sorry Rainman, but I respectfully disagree with you on this one.

No problem. Easy to miss the nuances.

flying this way, especially around people, is never a good idea.

Or with people on board. I remember some H Model Huey guys at Ellsworth killing a fire support team doing shit like this. It was bad.

At what point does reckless/dangerous flying become (or not become) criminal? Also, how are we going to teach the young guys 'what not to do' if we can never show them concrete examples?

You know if you're breaking the rules.

Irrelevant on both arguments--you either break the regs/fly in a reckless manner, or you don't. It doesn't matter if you're an AF A-10 guy or an Army Apache guy...rules are rules.

Again, nuances.

1) Don't overfly the friendlies.

2) Don't do anything you're not qual'd to do.

1) It depends

2) Correct

[BlackKnight]

That totally depends on the situation though. My airplane is certified and verified to fly at 1mm above the ground in the instant right after takeoff and right before landing. That's lower than snakeshit! So is that my minimum altitude if I wanna do a flyby for some Army dudes?

Hyperbole yes but you get my point...even if you're allowed to fly low or high or fast or slow or whatever, it should be done for a mission-related reason. I've yet to hear of a mission that involves showing off max performance aircraft capes at random to dudes on the ground in some kind of seat of your pants airshow.

One of the dumbest posts I've ever read.

Unless your LASDT category is 1mm, then no. Reference my last post about being trained.

No. I don't.

If you're allowed to fly low and fast and you aren't, then ###### you.

I like this guy! Let's keep him around! That last line is priceless/hilarious, and true.

If you're gonna shine your ass... you better not ###### it up.

Shack.

[Kilgore Trout]

Just to fan the flames of the Apache incident; I spoke with an Apache pilot about this to make sure it wasn't him or his unit. He said it wasn't and the MDR showed it was at 21 ktas at the top of the turn and you should never be below 70 ktas anywhere in the maneuver. He said it was a pitch back turn at low altitude, high gross weight, and high DA. Ended by saying if the PIC didn't know he would hit the ground with all that then he shouldn't be flying 64s anyway.

[busdriver]

We teach a similar maneuver in AHC, if done correctly it's energy neutral, that obviously wasn't.

[CJ-6A]

Recommend you guys don't go crucifying the crew from a flight discipline angle without knowing all the facts.

What? .....Crucifying a crew without knowing the facts.... that never happens around here....

[Guest Grind]

[Ram]

[DeHavilland]

I put this on an Army site and thought it would fit here too. The Apache pilot is guilty or not guilty of performing a maneuver that certainly destroyed his aircraft. Before I get flamed for passing judgement on the crew, my post is was to promote discussion from a guilty perspective and maybe stop somebody else. The Army is not immune from pilots doing dumb things that lead to destroyed aircraft and lives. Just thought I would help to keep the discussion lively.

....Just for a minute for this brief thread, let's say the pilot is guilty of showboating . How many times have we heard someone say they want to be treated like an adult? Then some ass-clown goes off and does something like this. How many millions are wasted? How many of us know guys that like to push things further than others? This sort of stuff sickens me. In a 20++ year career, I have seen the twisted wreckage and burnt bodies of those that wanted to go just a bit further. It just is not worth it. I am now an old pilot. I got lucky and stopped being bold a long, long time ago before I damaged anything. I recently read something in a sister service safety article. It said something like, there are no new accidents, just new pilots waiting to relearn the same experiences the hard way. Ass clown behavior can be stopped if we man up and speak to our fellow pilots before something happens. Unfortunately, since we do not fly single pilot anymore, when someone goes ass-clown, there is some guy(s) along for the ride that get caught up in the carnage to follow. True story - CDR has to tell the parents of a young female passenger that their daughter died a most tragic death (survived the impact, only to die in the ensuing fire ball) and that the pilot was a known hotdog, but nobody every reined him in. I have probably hurt some feelings here. However, hopefully just one pilot will remember this and stop their PC from taking them along to their early death. Man up and kill the bad guys, not ourselves.....

[Guest]

Ass clown behavior can be stopped if we man up and speak to our fellow pilots before something happens.

I disagree.

I do agree that you should speak up if you are uncomfortable as a crew member.

I have never pretended that I didn't BFM the rules. I did follow the rules, always referred to the source document for guidance and I avoided WOMs with a passion. If someone told me I pushed things too far I usually told them to piss off. I had rangers call the squadron more than once saying I had pressed abort or min altitudes. I always had film. On the range abort is abort and min alt is min alt. Period. Low level flying min altitudes allow for momentary deviations. It is impossible to fly at 100' + 0'. I would more often not pass a guy on a LASDT ride for being unable to stay 100' + 50' and I was more concerned that they were hanging out at 150-200' than I was about momentary deviations below 100'.

All that said, you fuck up you can expect to get fucked up.

[BQZip01]

Good perspective to have Rainman

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

I disagree.

I do agree that you should speak up if you are uncomfortable as a crew member.

I have never pretended that I didn't BFM the rules. I did follow the rules, always referred to the source document for guidance and I avoided WOMs with a passion. If someone told me I pushed things too far I usually told them to piss off. I had rangers call the squadron more than once saying I had pressed abort or min altitudes. I always had film. On the range abort is abort and min alt is min alt. Period. Low level flying min altitudes allow for momentary deviations. It is impossible to fly at 100' + 0'. I would more often not pass a guy on a LASDT ride for being unable to stay 100' + 50' and I was more concerned that they were hanging out at 150-200' than I was about momentary deviations below 100'.

All that said, you fuck up you can expect to get fucked up.

I agree with you on this point, but you must concede that there is BFMing the rules, and there is blatantly disregarding the rules. BFM to make the mission happen and kill bad guys is usually acceptable, so long as you have three legs to stand on. If you can point to A) the book B) the mission results or C) sound judgement, you are probably going to win. But if you can't identify any sort of legal or results based reason for doing something other than "It sounded fun" you're probably going to get hung out to dry if you haven't already killed yourself in the process.

Momentary deviations from a briefed altitude are one thing, but knowingly and willingly deviating is a different animal. You said you wouldn't hook a guy for being 100 +/- 50, and I agree; however, I would imagine you would hook the guy for shacking 50' all the way along?

[Guest]

He hooked me like it was his JOB when I momentarily deviated over a lake below my 300' LASDT qual once...

C'mon man, you know that ain't true!

It did not slow you down because you didn't cry like a SNAP bitch. You entered the IPUG soon afterwards and you are still killing Taliban/AQ like a motherfucking boss...HELLZYA! YO, 'SUP TERRORIST BITCHES!

Edited March 27, 2012 by Rainman A-10

[Ram]

HELLZYA! YO, 'SUP TERRORIST BITCHES!

I never actually LOL, except for this time.

LOL.

[Guest]

[Ferg]

[LL Windshear]

I should print and post this in my squadron.

...too soon?

[billy pilgrim]

And stop pulling more than five g's in the break! We need to make these old fighters last...

Can you look the tax payer straight in the eye and justify that seven g closed pattern you just pulled - the one with the whispies of condensation off the wingtips, longerons straining all the while. The one that is only registering MORE noise complaints with the host country nationals. The one puts a smile on the dearm crew. The one that the eight year old boy is watching from the commissary parking lot and just made him decide he wanted to become an Air Force pilot - that one. Reprehensible.

Good flight discipline comes from several sources... Internalizing the core values, the wingman concept, and I'm pretty sure the full range leadership model has something to do with it as well.

IMHO barrel rolling a King Air seems to be far from dangerous if you have any pilot ability, but I say this from a position of ignorance having never flown one. That said, it is clearly against the rules and the second the cat gets out of the bag - if it does - you're going to have to live with the consequences for what you've done. I feel bad for those pilots. He should've flown it a little more coordinated so those in the back didn't realize ;-)

PS. I think if you dug a little deeper on this one you'd find that these are the people that were not wearing their reflective belts and had their PT shirts untucked at the gym. The warning signs had been there all along!

[Hacker]

it is clearly against the rules

Which rule is that?

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

Which rule is that?

The verbiage in the TO? Or are you hoping it was written somewhere else as well?

[EvilEagle]

Which rule is that?

Hacker: de-couple auto press to test function!