Tonka Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 I still don't think that is "good news"...i.e. "the Titanic is going down", "well good news there should be less of a line for the shuffle board games. Quick re-arrange the lounge chairs to hear the band better." I'm all for making rank and getting paid more, and there are at least a few jobs that I think would be fun to do with a couple of good promotions...but, if way too many people leave, what good does it do? Maybe if we eventually figure out that we really have to do less with less, it might be good... I just don't see it happening in my career time frame. So if you want to look at it that way, you are going to get promoted by attrition and have to deal with worsening and worsening conditions. How good did we feel about ourselves when we made it to Captain with a 99% promotion rate... didn't really give us much of an incentive to do much. Multiply that through the rank of Lt Col and we get a lot of unmotivated individuals that sit around from 10-3 eating popcorn, drinking beer, and hitting the gym... wait maybe this is good news! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 Good news if you want to stay in and get promoted. Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk I'm hoping there is some sarcasm in that statement... ...especially since those who leave these days seem disproportionately from the higher performers. What makes you think this, Ratner? I can't lay the same claim from my seat, but perspective is simply that...some go, but some stay...is that different than the way it's always been (some have just gone earlier lately, which isn't all a bad thing)? How good did we feel about ourselves when we made it to Captain with a 99% promotion rate... didn't really give us much of an incentive to do much. Multiply that through the rank of Lt Col and we get a lot of unmotivated individuals that sit around from 10-3 eating popcorn, drinking beer, and hitting the gym... wait maybe this is good news! Fuck man...did you somehow think year 5 was some sort of fucking feat? If simply being in year 5 was supposed to somehow incentivize you, I have no idea where you're coming from. You should still have been teeth to the stone, fucking shit up at that point. Come to think of it, you should be balls to the fucking wall all the time (O-3 or O-5, or whatever), in the military or out, or you aren't one of these "keepers" Ratner is talking about. I'm growing a big disconnect here and I'm struggling to figure out if it's the difference between 2003 "KoolKat" Bender and 2016 Bender, or just a lot of overly sensitive, it didn't work out the way I wanted, crying it's the system and not me bullshit. There is zero doubt in my mind that the service is fucked up and needs some major focus. But if it's just me, that would be nice to know, so I can moderate my slide into not giving a shit from here on out. There are PLENTY of sharp, motivated, hard working Airmen, NCOs, SNCOs, CGOs, and FGOs I've had the privilege of working with all the way up until now...I like my team, but I do agree the coaching staff could do a better job. If you don't want to coach when you get done playing, more power to you...go find something else to do. There is no shame in that. In fact, there is absolutely nothing wrong with very publicly criticizing the coaching when you aren't even in the organization (anymore, or even ever); we do it every Sunday! Bendy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ratner Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 What makes you think this, Ratner? I can't lay the same claim from my seat, but perspective is simply that...some go, but some stay...is that different than the way it's always been (some have just gone earlier lately, which isn't all a bad thing)?Mostly anecdotal. VSP for one. Since then, the people I know who are not taking the bonus or opting out of their next assignment have been the ones with strats and school slots. The guys and gals I know these days who are positive about taking the bonus and making it to retirement no matter what are (not all, but mostly) worker bees, at best. Five years ago when I would tell someone the bonus was a raw deal, most would look at me like I was nuts. Now it's rare to talk to someone who is sure about taking it, while passers abound. This is supported by data, at least. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guineapigfury Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 Here's my anecdata from the last year in my current squadron: 4 evaluators and 9 instructors dropped their papers. There are plenty more lined up to follow them out the door as soon as ADSCs or enlistments are up. The 6 dudes in my Squadron going to MEBs are all pretty damn good as well, so that doesn't help. I've seen a handful of top notch dudes take the money, but for each one that does it seems like three punch and two break. I hope it's going better elsewhere. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HossHarris Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 >you< can be the best of what's left! (excellence through attrition) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 Guineapigfury. It is the same at my base. However most people are trying to Palace Chase so at least they will still be in the total force. I have also noticed people leaving who have never been screwed by Big Blue but see how bad the current climate is and are getting jaded just from that. It is an interesting time for sure, and money is not the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17D_guy Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) The best people I've worked with Cyber side are out or heavily considering it. If they don't get out entirely, they palace chase. Which is great for them. Meanwhile, I'm sitting less than 5 years from retirement and I'm just... tired. I'm tired, and I've been unable to deploy. So I haven't even felt the suck of the 6/12's most cyber officers have been feeling. I don't have the people to support the missions we're asked to do. The next large AEF-band is coming and it's going to be the super-suck for the base for another 6-months. Where a single Airman takes leave, and I've got <30% work center output. Looking at the already low manning levels and no-shit deploying 30% (as of now) of available Amn. WHAT? Last time it came down to "do we spend all day patching" or "do we spend all day working high priority tickets?" I could not do both. I refuse to hold my Airmen at work for extended periods of time when the AF can't figure out it's manning. I'll burn, but I'm not going to force my Amn to. I can't quit anything like the CSAF wants, because I don't have the authority to quit and the bosses don't want to ask. Plus, what am I going to quit.. equipment accountability? Patching? Issuing new equipment? Making iPhones work? Making VPN work? That awesome IA test? Sure... it might save a little time now, just wait until the next inspection or audit. Especially since we get inspected by non-AF entities who don't care what some Gen said. Edited January 12, 2016 by 17D_guy 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 On 1/11/2016 at 9:18 PM, Bender said: man...did you somehow think year 5 was some sort of ing feat? If simply being in year 5 was supposed to somehow incentivize you, I have no idea where you're coming from. You should still have been teeth to the stone, ing shit up at that point. Come to think of it, you should be balls to the ing wall all the time (O-3 or O-5, or whatever), in the military or out, or you aren't one of these "keepers" Ratner is talking about. No, I didn't, that was the point I poorly made... 4 years in, here's another promotion... should that continue all the way to 20 and beyond though? Because that seems like a poor system. If you don't incentivize folks to "perform" at a minimum level then there will be a dramatic increase of "why-should-I-work-harder-if-we-all-get-promoted-regardless" attitude. Why should I be "balls to the ing wall all the time" when I will get paid and promoted the same regardless? I agree with your sentiments, I was just trying to put some freakonomics principles to it. On 1/11/2016 at 9:18 PM, Bender said: ... or just a lot of overly sensitive, it didn't work out the way I wanted, crying it's the system and not me bullshit... I have no idea how you interpreted this from what I or others wrote as I was mostly providing my guess at what a promotion by attrition principle would entail. Additionally, I don't get that attitude where I work at all (nor do I feel that way!) Most folks are being rode hard and put away wet. There is a dedication to service and then there is "Welcome back from the 180, it didn't reset your 365 clock though... you leave next week." There is getting tough when the going gets rough and then there is 14 years of it. I have not once witnessed a single person that I thought was "quitting" with a whiny, piss-ant attitude... rather it was: they get out or they would have physically or mentally broken down (I've seen it in their eyes), they'll lose their spouse and family because they weren't going to go through it again, or they paid their dues and wanted to move on to do something different. On 1/11/2016 at 9:18 PM, Bender said: There are PLENTY of sharp, motivated, hard working Airmen, NCOs, SNCOs, CGOs, and FGOs I've had the privilege of working with all the way up until now...I like my team, but I do agree the coaching staff could do a better job. Spot on... I would say this is true for the majority. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 I have no idea how you interpreted this from what I or others wrote... Sometimes things aren't an argument or a retort, but rather a personal expansion beyond (perhaps away from) your point which was initially quoted. Sorry, man...I could have "de-quoted" you or made it more clear. My disconnect is more general/philosophical, certainly not (as far as I know) with you... Promotions beyond O-3 aren't automatic, but I would agree that the percentages are high (for O-4/O-5). That said, what's to change here, assuming change is required to incentivize the officer corps? In my opinion, the change required is whatever is making promotion a required incentive. I speak only for myself, but I would do my job no less well knowing I was not going to make O-5. It only means I won't get to serve any longer...this isn't the greatest job on earth for most (there are some people who truly love to fly jets or code computers for reduced wages, sure)...it's still service, still sacrifice, still costs way too much for most, everything for some. The average price is too high at this point; we need a discount soon or we'll go broke. Not being able to sustain family life is a legitimate concern and one I think should be a source of attention and concern for leadership at all levels...that said, you should feel lucky to have that at the Squadron level in this Air Force, you don't have it higher then that. Senior leadership of the service can't even suggest taking the foot off the gas pedal, the combatant commands aren't going to suggest it (perhaps more rightfully so), but either way...we send many, many, many Airmen into tailspins that can't be recovered without ejection. I see definitely see a lot more selfies and self-aggrandizement from above than I do selfishness from below. Maybe not as disconnected as I think sometimes; although, if we're here to do the job, we're all going to do the absolute fucking best to do it...we'll try our best to bring the marriages, children, some of the girlfriends, hookers, and booze with us out the other side. That was an appropriate place for an Oxford comma, Bendy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champ Kind Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 if we're here to do the job, we're all going to do the absolute fucking best to do it...we'll try our best to bring the marriages, children..with us out the other side Absolutely the wrong answer. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooseAg03 Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 if we're here to do the job, we're all going to do the absolute ing best to do it...we'll try our best to bring the marriages, children..with us out the other sideAbsolutely the wrong answer. Exactly, my wife and children will still be here long after I'm out of the Air Force. Which do you think I spend more time on? The one that won't miss me a bit the day after I leave or retire, or the ones who will be here until the day I die? Easy choice for me. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 You do what you do when you put on your uniform for the Air Force? This what was just implied and to use Champ's words, "absolutely the wrong answer." This might be part of our collective problem right there. You should be doing it for your family and your family's families, as distinctly and directly as it could possibly be. If you are doing it for the Air Force itself, it's just a job and you should make your snappy quips to the management at Delta or Costco. You've lost your way in serving your country and need to recage or separate. To do your best to care for families and bring them with us out the other side is "absolutely the wrong answer"? You think we should, specifically as a service to our country put ourselves (by proxy our families) first? Interesting prism...you can put your family first by going to work at Costco. We need to do better, I absolutely agree, but if "trying our best" is "absolutely the wrong answer" (particularly when that's all you have to offer) it as hollow as the guide we're currently possessed with. It's not an all or nothing, or a "you're all in" (a statement I loathe by the way). However, if you are going to go out of your way to avoid hardship while others bear it...get the fuck out of the way. If you think what you do isn't important to the welfare of the people and principles you thought you protected when you signed up all the years ago...get the fuck out of the way. I think your family is important. I also think this work we do is important. If you leave it up to Big Blue to take care of your family, you're a fuck tard. Make the choices you need to make, if it's too much for you, step aside and let someone else with more flexibility step in to help. There is a massive gray area here when almost everyone is threading the line of maintaining the Homefront while executing the down range mission...it's on you to work it out, all you should ask of someone else is their honest best to balance things. There is and will never be any doubt who one would chose if you had to choose one or the other...if there was, you should probably file for divorce (Oklahoma is a good place for that I hear). Give me a fucking break, Champ. Sometimes you're such a tool. You know I know you're not, but sometimes... Bendy 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champ Kind Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 Dude, you're all over the place. Not arguing semantics with you because I don't want to subject everyone to another stream of consciousness wall of tl;dr text. Your post implies that the AF was the priority in that we should "do our absolutely best" at the job but "try" to have the family on the other side. Then you get all sentimental and say we do it "for" our families. Like I said, you're all over the place. And if I'm a tool for prioritizing my family, then call me Craftsmen because I will put them first every single time. Disengaging from this conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooseAg03 Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 I made a decision early on after seeing too many pissed off senior leaders with multiple ex wives that I was not going to sacrifice my family for career. Don't get me wrong, I'm good at what I do and I fight for my guys every day. I'm just not going to be the doormat that volunteers for every shit sandwich because I realize how broken the system is. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HossHarris Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 And the equation changes from new young guy, to young married guy, to guy with kids, to old grey beard with kids. Different priorities for each. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnapLock Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 My opinion, in my own little corner of the AF, that I've spent a decade in is that there is a lot more selfishness in the AF than altruism at all levels. I joined to serve my country and to do something that I thought I would love and had always dreamed of doing. To my surprise I have rarely heard or seen anyone talking about doing this to serve their country or that this is something we do for our families. Instead, I see and hear rampant careerism, poor morale, people throwing away their integrity to get ahead and a whole lot of back stabbing to get ahead of the next guy. I have been stabbed in the back more times than I can count and can't believe some of the b.s. I have seen be our senior leadership. Remind me again why I should keep doing this for my family? Remind me why I should deploy to "serve my country" when I am only making power point slides or fighting in a "war" that we aren't fighting to win? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 I joined to serve my Country and protect my family, but my priority has been and always will be Faith, Family, Country and the the Air Force, in that order. The problem is that the Air Force is constantly pitting Air Force members in a position where they are forced to choose between their family and Active Duty, and too many times it is due to deployed kingdom building or pointless tasking that some O-6 or higher refuses to get rid of. In those cases I see people become disillusioned with AD and choose to take their talents elsewhere, mostly to the Guard or Reserves where they feel they can better shield their family from AD careerism and the bloody trail it leaves behind. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ratner Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 You've lost your way in serving your country and need to recage or separate Perhaps it is the organization that has lost its way. I believe that the overwhelming majority of the people on this board and the AF believe what you said, that putting the mission first is also protecting your family. But that implies "the mission" involves a threat to our country and our way of life. The very existence of this conversation is evidence that some members doubt that connection. Nowhere else in America do leaders blame groups of disenfranchised employees for their collective disgruntlement. It violates nearly every theory of organizational leadership, many of which the AF teaches. AF leaders have the burden of their choices potentially leading to death, not an easy or remotely common consideration for a leader to accept. Unfortunately there is almost no accountability for the less dramatic organizational leadership decisions made everyday by senior officers (O-5 and above) who-- by the very nature of our promotions and assignments system-- have no experience in the position they are in. Manning problems are never the peons' fault. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slackline Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 Unfortunately there is almost no accountability for the less dramatic organizational leadership decisions made everyday by senior officers (O-5 and above) who-- by the very nature of our promotions and assignments system-- have no experience in the position they are in. Manning problems are never the peons' fault. That's funny of you think O-5 qualifies as senior leadership. Sq cmd is a great spot for leaders, but that is the last time an O-5 has any real-ish power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ratner Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 That's funny of you think O-5 qualifies as senior leadership. Sq cmd is a great spot for leaders, but that is the last time an O-5 has any real-ish power. I'm using the term (senior officer, not senior leadership as you said) loosely. Sq command is the first level of meaningful organizational leadership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 Until you realize how powerless your SQ/CC really is... It's sad really. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 Dude, you're all over the place. Not arguing semantics with you because I don't want to subject everyone to another stream of consciousness wall of tl;dr text. Your post implies that the AF was the priority in that we should "do our absolutely best" at the job but "try" to have the family on the other side. Then you get all sentimental and say we do it "for" our families. Like I said, you're all over the place. And if I'm a tool for prioritizing my family, then call me Craftsmen because I will put them first every single time. Disengaging from this conversation. If you want to try and take something complicated and make it binary, perhaps disengagement is the best course of action. Making it binary is the exact reason people bitch about it to begin with. All over the place my ass...I made a decision early on after seeing too many pissed off senior leaders with multiple ex wives that I was not going to sacrifice my family for career. Don't get me wrong, I'm good at what I do and I fight for my guys every day. I'm just not going to be the doormat that volunteers for every shit sandwich because I realize how broken the system is. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Good on ya, Moose. Question for you: How do you mean it when you say career? This gets said all the time, to me it's as if people commissioned or enlisted with 20 year commitments. Doing things "for your career" (family being only one of many things/reasons and certainly the least sinister among them) is yet another of the exact reasons people bitch about it to begin with. And the equation changes from new young guy, to young married guy, to guy with kids, to old grey beard with kids. Different priorities for each. I like this one...and those making any decision (should) be well aware. To me, as soon as the the equation is no longer in your favor or at least balanced, it's time to punch. Your "career" is terminated. Bendy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 But that implies "the mission" involves a threat to our country and our way of life. Well there is the meat of it, isn't it. Would we have this conversation in a peacetime force? Hypothetical, of course... I agree there is a tenuous connection to a threat to our country and its way of life...but, you of all people should know, there is a very real connection to the life of young Americans who are on the ground in very dangerous situations. I can't say I'd include a 179 to PowerPoint in that...a deployed billet audit and restructuring is needed and it boggles my mind this hasn't happened yet. Never at any time have I ever seen a complete disregard for the well being of the service member or their family affairs...maybe other communities have higher tempos than the one I just left, where such luxuries aren't available or sought. If so, that it grade A bullshit and I'd walk too. Bendy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ratner Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 I agree there is a tenuous connection to a threat to our country and its way of life...but, you of all people should know, there is a very real connection to the life of young Americans who are on the ground in very dangerous situations. Bendy I assume you're referring to my MC-12 time (were you there when I was? ). I loved what we did there. The direct support to the ground pounders, be it convoy overwatch or more direct support during hostilities, was amazingly rewarding. Way more of a "I'm part of the fight" feel than my time as a FAIP or tanker pilot. But while the individual experience of the MC-12 was very rewarding, I can't say it did much for my (and others') opinion of the overall military effort. I think (purely speculative) that's what we're seeing today. People still believe in the mission of their unit or the MWS, but not in what it is being used for. Maslow's higher needs can't be fulfilled this way, making it harder to have a high-functioning organization. The U.S. chose to have an all volunteer force. That means it has to run it (in many ways) like other voluntary operations. Telling people their opinions and feelings are misguided (or selfish!) is a failure of empathy, and thus a failure of leadership. Say what you will about the conflict between empathy and the "killing people and breaking their stuff" military badass mindset, it matters. Especially when fewer people think their integrity, service, excellence, and lives are being spent on worthwhile endeavors, the bond between leader and follower is even more critical. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooseAg03 Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 Just to re-cage for a bit...has everyone started counting the teeth on their flight suit zipper? Summer's coming soon. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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