Leadership at the 'Deid

[tac airlifter]

Those flying into Iraq/Afghanistan from there certainly have the potential for lethal engagements and deserve CZTE/HFP. As do others who fly from there and into those places. As for stopping that pay for those at the 'Deid, I see no problem with that, but realize that the center of the runway is just over 2 minutes from Iranian airspace at Mach 2 (rough estimate). Considering the stance of the Iranians at this point in time, I think they just might deserve that bonus.

Do you seriously think Airmen doing the bump and grind drinking beer during salsa night at the deid are entitled to the same CZTE/HFP/HDP as the guys driving the perimeter at Kirkuk, just based on the Iranians being unfriendly? I respectfully disagree.

[PirateAF]

Do you seriously think Airmen doing the bump and grind drinking beer during salsa night at the deid are entitled to the same CZTE/HFP/HDP as the guys driving the perimeter at Kirkuk, just based on the Iranians being unfriendly? I respectfully disagree.

For those guys living in the new dorms I would respectfully disagree also.

However if you're living in one of those crappy tents/trailers with the communal bathrooms...it's a toss up.

Granted your living conditions shouldn't entitle one to CZTE.

But it's nice to think about as you walk 4 miles to take a shower in the 120 degree heat.

[BQZip01]

Do you seriously think Airmen doing the bump and grind drinking beer during salsa night at the deid are entitled to the same CZTE/HFP/HDP as the guys driving the perimeter at Kirkuk, just based on the Iranians being unfriendly? I respectfully disagree.

I never said that. I think the quality of life has nothing to do with it. Those at the Khobar Towers had it pretty nice too for a while and weren't living in tents either. But they were attacked and killed all the same.

It all has to do with the location, not how far you have to walk to the bathrooms, whether or not you have salsa, or anything else along those lines. Imminent Danger/Hostile Fire Pay is determined by location, not the job you perform.

There have been terrorist attacks in Qatar and other "less hostile" places in the Middle East and will continue happen because of the extremists who hate those who disagree with them so much that they feel that they must kill 'em and don't care if they themselves die in the process. That level of hate will continue to spawn violence and hatred until the Muslim culture realizes it won't solve anything.

[Boxhead]

There have been terrorist attacks in Qatar and other "less hostile" places in the Middle East and will continue happen because of the extremists who hate those who disagree with them so much that they feel that they must kill 'em and don't care if they themselves die in the process. That level of hate will continue to spawn violence and hatred until the Muslim culture realizes it won't solve anything.

If you are going to let Muslim extremists define Combat zones....better fire up some combat pay for...well....pretty much everyone....everywhere.

Iran is not a recognized enemy yet. If we decided to fight with them, then by all means, the Died will be a fair place to receive those pays. Till then, hell no.

[BQZip01]

If you are going to let Muslim extremists define Combat zones....better fire up some combat pay for...well....pretty much everyone....everywhere.

Iran is not a recognized enemy yet. If we decided to fight with them, then by all means, the Died will be a fair place to receive those pays. Till then, hell no.

Like I said earlier, there are plenty of people who fly out of there into hostile zones and they should receive the pay. Muslim extremists have caused more terrorist incidents in the Middle East than anywhere else. This is not about the possibility of a terrorist attack, but the probability of one. Your chances there are much higher than Minot, North Dakota.

[sputnik]

I'm so sure FCCs travel every single day and have no days where they are at the 'Deid from 0001-2400. When do they get their crew rest?

A minor point but FCCs aren't aircrew and thus don't get crew rest. Most wings I've been in have some policy dictating a min amount off between missions (no where near 12 hours), but in general they are expected to sleep on the plane. Go to a C17 stage/EAS and count thencrews, then count the FCCs. There are way more crews than FCCs, they fly a lot more than the aircrews.

I can't speak to your specific case, but when I was at McChord the FCCs were always authorized a rental car on orders. Reason being their duties started when we landed, therefore they couldn't ride on the crew bus with us (and often went in before us). When they were done typically trans wasn't all that helpful moving one guy. More to the point, they were often called in after hours (no crew rest to violate) to work issues, and couldn't depend on trans. If you're off base at most locations trans flat out will not roll a bus for one guy, "take a cab." Trying to get a cab in the middle of the night...get it on base...even our tight-wad base saw the logic of rental cars. Same rationalization on full meals.

So why guys are getting that on orders to the 'Died, no idea. But I assume they got to and from the 'Died on something other than a rotator. And even if not, every other time they fly they have the blanket authorizations.

You seem to feel like these guys are fucking you over personnally, and the taxpayer generally. Why don't you find the guy's commander and ask him why it's on there.

Edited January 3, 2009 by sputnik

[itsokimapilot]

No way. On the same order they listed other BS. Full size rental car, dual lodging, all communication charges and a few other items I won't mention. No way MPF made a mistake on all that. None of that is in the AOR reporting instructions.

Someone is working them.

I wouldn't call it working the system. I call it the cost of doing business. These guys work their a$$e$ off more than most others in the AOR. They carry tools and parts that sometimes require a full size vehicle. They are often staying in two locations at once due to their schedule and will often have numerous calls to their supervisors and specialists to work aircraft issues. I've never known a chief to work the system as you are eluding to. In fact it pisses me off when operators try to make the mission happen and get called on it for trying to ensure they have operational flexability. In stead of calling all FCCs out why don't you focus on hammering the ones that abuse the flexability afforded to them.

[BQZip01]

I wouldn't call it working the system. I call it the cost of doing business. These guys work their a$$e$ off more than most others in the AOR. They carry tools and parts that sometimes require a full size vehicle. They are often staying in two locations at once due to their schedule and will often have numerous calls to their supervisors and specialists to work aircraft issues. I've never known a chief to work the system as you are eluding to. In fact it pisses me off when operators try to make the mission happen and get called on it for trying to ensure they have operational flexability. In stead of calling all FCCs out why don't you focus on hammering the ones that abuse the flexability afforded to them.

2

[Champ Kind]

Agree to all of the above. FCC's are some of the hardest-working and best dudes. No question. The fact that people in Finance are wasting their time on queep like this, trying to withhold ENTITLEMENTS to people out there hacking the mish and keeping our broke-ass fleet in the fight is complete BS.

Here's a tip, dweebs: Drop this issue, and re-attack on things that actually require your attention, like getting in the books and having the ability to answer your "customers'" questions, pay out the proper entitlements in a timely fashion, and for fuck's sake fix DTS..... you know, if you can fit it into your hectic hours, and all.

[Guest Rusty Pipes]

I can't remember the last time I walked for more than a minute in the CC or BPC at the Deid and didn't see a Chief... and more than half the people are wearing PT's so it is probably double what I am seeing. There are so many Sr NCO's out here trying to get their "Combat Deployment" that they don't know what to do with them. So what do they do? They are the uniform Nazi's and they have the full blessing of the leadership to talk to officers any way they deem fit... it is a complete disgrace and embarrassment to the Air Force.

I hate to say this, but my deployment to the Deid has made me lose all respect for Chief's and many Sr NCO's and I am not alone in this thought (officer's and NCO's alike). Those Chiefs who are very proud of the fact that they can call a number of GO's from their speed dial are most definitely hurting the future of the AF and the Officer/Sr NCO relationship. Due to poor Sr Officer leadership in the past few years, Sr NCO's in the AF have this perceived power and think they can pretty much do or say anything because they will get the back up of said poor Sr Officer leadership. I'll tell you this though, if you ask any FGO who has deployed to the AOR (especially the Deid) in the past year what they think of Chiefs and Sr NCO's and I'd venture to say that 90% of them will say they have lost a lot if not all respect for them because of the abuse of this perceived power. So do us all a favor Chief, if correcting a Lt Col on his uniform in front of you MSgt cronies is what your job is in the AOR... go home! Get out of the way and let the rest of us do what we are here to do, fight a war!

[60 driver]

Never been to the Deid, but I assume at this point this thread has morphed enough to include a few more Bagram stories - I'll keep them short, otherwise I'm just going to get pissed off again.

Off the top of my head:

- During inprocessing, we got 7 separate iterations - I counted - on proper wear of the reflective belt/PT uniform before hearing word one about airfield security. We never were told where the bunkers were. During the PERSCO inbrief, right off the C-17 from Manas, one SMSgt talked for 5 minutes about how to ensure we received the correct decorations for the deployment.

- During the Right Start Brief, the base commander had everyone in the room stand and recite the Airman's creed out loud.

- The wing staff had the brilliant idea to emulate the Army's greeting tradition ("Stands alone, sir!") by introducing one of their own warrior greetings: "Start right!" "Finish Strong!" When I left there was still a banner with that shit on it hanging from the old tower cab on Cunningham.

- I was there when the FUBAR patch incident went down. I was on the commanders' email distro list, and some very senior air force officers lost their ######ing minds over this to a degree that went beyond embarrassing to frankly disturbing. I saved the email somwehere, I'll have to see if I can find it.

- The previously mentioned A-10 moustache groundings and the O-5 with the OIF hat in the gym. I don't think this part was mentioned -- the O-5 got sent home over that incident because he made a smart-ass remark to the E-whatever who told him to take it off.

- Useless ######s attempting to stop crewmembers during MEDEVAC scramble launches for not having a reflective belt on.

Now obviously, if the Wing can afford to focus this much on the nitnoid shit, the Ops shit must be wired tight...right?

- Between our two rotations, spent six (6) months trying to put together one (1) local area RESCORT trainer with the hog guys. This is not exactly a tactical stretch for us, but it had to go the deputy CFACC for approval. Disapproved.

- Same thing for Apache RESCORT. Required 2 star approval, disapproved. I lost my shit over that one - "Let me get this straight - a dry 3 ship local rehearshal with no boots on the ground requires deputy CFACC approval, but tomorrow night when we have to do it for real in the middle of a live-fire 8 ship with dudes on the ground, that's flight lead approval? Roger."

- Same 2-star turned off a pre-coordinated support mission during low illum 2 hours prior to kickoff, couldn't get it turned back on in time, left our Army bros hanging all ######ing night. Luckily no contacts, no one wounded or killed. Got it turned back on the next day, no valid reason given for the knock it off.

- Wing CC publicly compromised OPSEC on a "don't talk about fight club" type op in order to berate a mouth-open-in-amazement alert flight lead for not having patches on his flight suit.

Before coming to the guard, our DO was one of the most experienced special ops helo pilots in the air force. His quote toward the end of the deployment: "I have never been more professionally embarrassed in 18 years of doing this job." We're the same age, and I'm inclined to agree. My personal estimate is that about 40% of the people at Bagram don't need to be there. It's probably closer to 50%.

I have a lot more of these, but now I need a beer.

P.S. Almost forgot - while the OG was busy grounding guys for moustaches and morale patches, he also had several copies of the June issue of Air Force Magazine:

proudly displayed on the table outside his office. I commented on the irony, but I'm pretty sure he didn't think it was nearly as humorous as I did.

Edited January 28, 2009 by 60 driver

[BQZip01]

Never been to the Deid, but I assume at this point this thread has morphed enough to include a few more Bagram stories - I'll keep them short, otherwise I'm just going to get pissed off again.

Off the top of my head:

- During inprocessing, we got 7 separate iterations - I counted - on proper wear of the reflective belt/PT uniform before hearing word one about airfield security. We never were told where the bunkers were. During the PERSCO inbrief, right off the C-17 from Manas, one SMSgt talked for 5 minutes about how to ensure we received the correct decorations for the deployment.

...

P.S. Almost forgot - while the OG was busy grounding guys for moustaches and morale patches, he also had several copies of the June issue of Air Force Magazine proudly displayed on the table outside his office. I commented on the irony, but I'm pretty sure he didn't think it was nearly as humorous as I did.

Wow...just wow.

[Scooter14]

- Useless ######s attempting to stop crewmembers during MEDEVAC scramble launches for not having a reflective belt on.

2 on the Wow. A lot like the parking boot on the alert truck at the parking lot. Those who tried to stop the MEDEVAC scramble are lucky they didn't end up at the Casualty Collection Point.

It's mind-boggling how clueless people can be.

[HuggyU2]

60 Driver,

Great 1st post. Good to have you here.

[Guest Rusty Pipes]

Before coming to the guard, our DO was one of the most experienced special ops helo pilots in the air force. His quote toward the end of the deployment: "I have never been more professionally embarrassed in 18 years of doing this job." We're the same age, and I'm inclined to agree. My personal estimate is that about 40% of the people at Bagram don't need to be there. It's probably closer to 50%.

I completely agree with your DO. The total loss of focus by the AF in the AOR is seriously disturbing. When the primary focus at the Deid and other bases is reflective belts, PT t-shirts not being tucked in, and 25 KPH speed limits (that's right 25 KPH... slower than any school zone in the States) then we are in big trouble. As far as people not needing to be here, I completely agree as well. They could easily send home 30-40% of the people at the Deid and most definitely well over 50% of the Sr NCO's. A perfect example of this... you could go to the chow hall (that's right, I said chow hall and not DFAC) at either the CAOC or Ops Town during any meal period and find a table with close to a dozen Chief's and SMSgt's sitting together. You'll also see a few more E-8/9's scattered throughout the chow hall. Someone, please tell me why they are all here? They are literally making up jobs for them so they can deploy. I've never seen so many E-8 First Shirts in my life!!!

Another example; we probably have about 200 CE Escorts deployed to the Deid whose job is to watch TCN's clean shitters and also watch them spend 3 months building a concrete bus stop that should literally take them a day to build. Are you fvcking kidding me!?!?! Why the hell are we sending hundreds if not thousands of young Airmen to the AOR to do this when at Baghdad and other OIF bases they have contract security companies doing this (for a lot less cost by the way). What did you do in the war Grandpa? I watched a bunch of TCN's scrub toilets... do you want to see my combat expeditionary medals? It's not these poor Escorts' fault, they sure as hell don't want to be here... especially on the Operation Deny Holiday deployment (Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years). It pains me to say this because I am extremely proud of the great work our Airmen are doing today, but with all the shenanigans going on around the AOR (especially with most bases being somewhat joint) the AF has properly earned their well deserved reputation as the laughing stock of the AOR!

[stract]

60 Driver,

Your leadership and the leadership I just experienced here at BAF must be polar opposites. We've done flights (live fire, even!) with the AH-64s (CFACC blanket approved). The CFACC is onboard with doing CSARTFs once an AEF, though it hasn't happened yet due to the wing crack issue on the A-10s (no extra lines available outside ATO taskings). We're even getting launch authority for MEDEVACs delegated to a lower level (hasn't come out yet, but it's being coorded as we speak). Life is getting much better for our community downrange when it comes to doing our job when called on.

Combat O (BAF version of Right Start) was MUCH less painful than any I've experienced at other bases. Although the 20 min that the now former Wing CCC talked about proper wear of the uniform was over the top. The new Wing CCC isn't like that. After hearing (and experiencing) the uniform nazis at deployed locations, BAF has ALMOST been the anti-nazi. The Wing/CC approved us to wear our Massif cold WX gear as outerwear around base, among other things. And common sense prevails -- no reflective belts in PT gear for the AF, even though ever other service on base requires it for their own.

Our OG is fvcking awesome. I wish he would still be here when I come back in Sep. Hands down the best OG I've seen or had the pleasure to work for, and will make an incredible WG/CC down the road. If anyone else here knows Donk, you'll agree with me.

Our OG/CCC is also fvcking awesome, but I guess it helps that he's aircrew (C-5 FE).

Sorry you had such a bad experience here, 60 Driver, but it isn't like that right now.

Edited January 6, 2009 by stract

[DC]

The amount of prep time involved in an emergency middle of the night trip to the pisser 150 feet out the tent door at OAKN has been dramatically reduced since our good NATO bros have taken over there and the fear of having to explain that your bladder is about to explode and you didn't care about putting your shirt on inside out in the pitch black tent has gone away. Yet, surprisingly, ops at OAKN haven't ground to a dead halt due to such uniform infractions. Go figure!

[Q1Checkride]

I completely agree with your DO. The total loss of focus by the AF in the AOR is seriously disturbing. When the primary focus at the Deid and other bases is reflective belts, PT t-shirts not being tucked in, and 25 KPH speed limits (that's right 25 KPH... slower than any school zone in the States) then we are in big trouble. As far as people not needing to be here, I completely agree as well. They could easily send home 30-40% of the people at the Deid and most definitely well over 50% of the Sr NCO's. A perfect example of this... you could go to the chow hall (that's right, I said chow hall and not DFAC) at either the CAOC or Ops Town during any meal period and find a table with close to a dozen Chief's and SMSgt's sitting together. You'll also see a few more E-8/9's scattered throughout the chow hall. Someone, please tell me why they are all here? They are literally making up jobs for them so they can deploy. I've never seen so many E-8 First Shirts in my life!!!

its the EXACT same shit at al dahfra too.

[BQZip01]

The amount of prep time involved in an emergency middle of the night trip to the pisser 150 feet out the tent door at OAKN has been dramatically reduced since our good NATO bros have taken over there and the fear of having to explain that your bladder is about to explode and you didn't care about putting your shirt on inside out in the pitch black tent has gone away. Yet, surprisingly, ops at OAKN haven't ground to a dead halt due to such uniform infractions. Go figure!

NO WAY!!! I can't imagine how you've managed not to devolve into anarchy and chaos. There must be a melee of discipline problems and a myriad of other problems out there that you aren't telling us about!

[amcflyboy]

60 Driver,

Your leadership and the leadership I just experienced here at BAF must be polar opposites. We've done flights (live fire, even!) with the AH-64s (CFACC blanket approved). The CFACC is onboard with doing CSARTFs once an AEF, though it hasn't happened yet due to the wing crack issue on the A-10s (no extra lines available outside ATO taskings). We're even getting launch authority for MEDEVACs delegated to a lower level (hasn't come out yet, but it's being coorded as we speak). Life is getting much better for our community downrange when it comes to doing our job when called on.

Combat O (BAF version of Right Start) was MUCH less painful than any I've experienced at other bases. Although the 20 min that the now former Wing CCC talked about proper wear of the uniform was over the top. The new Wing CCC isn't like that. After hearing (and experiencing) the uniform nazis at deployed locations, BAF has ALMOST been the anti-nazi. The Wing/CC approved us to wear our Massif cold WX gear as outerwear around base, among other things. And common sense prevails -- no reflective belts in PT gear for the AF, even though ever other service on base requires it for their own.

Our OG is fvcking awesome. I wish he would still be here when I come back in Sep. Hands down the best OG I've seen or had the pleasure to work for, and will make an incredible WG/CC down the road. If anyone else here knows Donk, you'll agree with me.

Our OG/CCC is also fvcking awesome, but I guess it helps that he's aircrew (C-5 FE).

Sorry you had such a bad experience here, 60 Driver, but it isn't like that right now.

I'll be there in May. Hopefully these dudes will still be keeping the fires burning.

[capt4fans]

Just a heads up to anyone headed out to the Deid for a rotation any time in the next few months. Make sure your PT score is updated. Appartenly it will be needed when you get submitted for an EOG monthly award.

Frankly, I'm about to just ask that my name be withdrawn simply on the principle that if the deciding factor in a monthly award package is how high your PT score is, then go f*** youself.

[Cooter]

So back in spring of '07 they started on those new shitters right next to the old ones...are those even done yet? I only ask becasue they should have been done in 3 months at most and when I left in winter '08 they still weren't.

I'll be there for a week soon if anyone is out there and wants to shoot the shit.

Cooter

[MD]

So back in spring of '07 they started on those new shitters right next to the old ones...are those even done yet? I only ask becasue they should have been done in 3 months at most and when I left in winter '08 they still weren't.

I'll be there for a week soon if anyone is out there and wants to shoot the shit.

Cooter

lol....STS

[capt4fans]

So back in spring of '07 they started on those new shitters right next to the old ones...are those even done yet? I only ask becasue they should have been done in 3 months at most and when I left in winter '08 they still weren't.

I'll be there for a week soon if anyone is out there and wants to shoot the shit.

Cooter

Cooter,

The shitters have had all the work stopped on them. Apparently the contractor went $500,000 over budget and they simply shut down operations about Christmas (which was when the General told us they would be done at our Oct Right Start breifing)

Supposedly, Red Horse is going to take over the construction, but as of now, they've pulled down all the fence and simply boarded them all up......oh yeah, and they got 1 of them done.

Edited January 10, 2009 by capt4fans

[MD]

Cooter,

The shitters have had all teh work stopped on them. Apparently the contractor went $500,000 over budget and they simply shut down operations about Christmas (which was when the General told us they would be done at our Oct Right Start breifing)

Supposedly, Red Horse is going to take over the construction, but as of now, they've pulled down all the fence and simply boarded them all up......oh yeah, and they got 1 of them done.

Thats pretty shitty news....