Judaism In The Air Force

[Guest ROTC Jew]

I'm a rising 100/200 at my local detachment (560, if it makes a difference) and I've asked this in many places, but apparently it's not too common. I hope you can help.

I'm an Orthodox Jew, and I was wondering if anyone had any insight into how possible accommodations are once I'm commissioned and assigned.

1. Sabbath- I'm fully willing to trade assignments with someone and work on Sunday, Easter, Christmas, etc. but is this an option?

2. Kosher- I've been assured that food is available, does anyone have personal experience with this? Good or bad?

3. I've heard rumors of the things that go on around military bases, and some of it suggests things I'd rather not be involved in. (I'm assuming you know what I'm talking about. I'll elaborate if necessary.)

4. Anything else I should be aware of?

Thank you all, and G-d bless.

[163 FS]

I'm a rising 100/200 at my local detachment (560, if it makes a difference) and I've asked this in many places, but apparently it's not too common. I hope you can help.

I'm an Orthodox Jew, and I was wondering if anyone had any insight into how possible accommodations are once I'm commissioned and assigned.

1. Sabbath- I'm fully willing to trade assignments with someone and work on Sunday, Easter, Christmas, etc. but is this an option?

2. Kosher- I've been assured that food is available, does anyone have personal experience with this? Good or bad?

3. I've heard rumors of the things that go on around military bases, and some of it suggests things I'd rather not be involved in. (I'm assuming you know what I'm talking about. I'll elaborate if necessary.)

4. Anything else I should be aware of?

Thank you all, and G-d bless.

To answer your questions:

1. Duty comes first, but that doesn't mean that you can't be Jewish. When duty calls, your ass better be running. Depending on your a/c, job, deployments, etc your ability to observe the sabbath will change.

2. Kosher food should always be available, IIRC even MREs have Kosher options.

3. I'm not sure what you are referring to, please elaborate...

4. Anything else...don't be cheap (Sorry, had to throw it in there, just joking obviously)

Overall, I don't think anyone will care about your religion unless it affects morale or the mission.

Edited June 15, 2008 by Tweet FAIP

[Guest Flyin' AF Hawaiian]

From my admittedly limited AD experience, I would say you would be "fairly" well accommodated. Here are the more specific answers:

1. The typical AF work week runs from Monday-Friday. Having Saturday off is the norm, unless, of course, you are deployed or in an exercise. I am not sure of how it works in a deployed environment, but I would not be surprised to find yourself working seven days a week.

2. Kosher meals are pretty easy to find anywhere. While deployed they might be harder to find, but since kosher MREs exist I don't think you will have a problem.

3. If you are talking about drinking, it is definitely ok if you don't. Drinking/not drinking is irrelevant from what I have seen. However, if you refuse to hang out with your buddies because of said activities, you might run into problems.

4. The AF is awesome and will try to accommodate you to the extent that it can. Please just remember that you serve at the pleasure of Big Blue, and their needs come first.

[Guest ROTC Jew]

Thank you for your quick reply. It seems number 3 does need elaborating, so here goes:

3. I've heard that there's a lot of mingling between the genders to different extents, ranging from platonic to something more and beyond. While I will of course be respectful to all officers and airmen, regardless of gender, beyond that I try to stay away from inter-gender relationships. That's what I'm referring to. Will that be respected? Or will I be this crazy O-1 who "thinks he's better than us?" Just as a side, I don't drink (personal preference, not religious), smoke, etc. although I have no problem "hanging out" at a bar, pool hall, whatever, as long as they don't expect me to participate in those things, or try to "get girls."

Tweet- I'll do my best ;) Believe me, being an Air Force Officer will destroy all stereotypes :)

Oh, and I'm not trying to be a pilot, just something in Intel, cybercommand, something like that- if that matters for the Sabbath thing.

[TacAirCoug]

1. First of all, the AF will accommodate you whenever possible. That said, everyone make sacrifices. You will certainly have to make some from time to time as well. That's just how this business works. As long as you're willing to "take one for the team" every once in a while, you shouldn't run into any problems.

3. The military is not much different than other slices of society. You'll find your crowd to run with, and distance yourself from others. When it comes to work, personal relationships are very important. You'll find some guys that are all about "getting girls," some that are not, and some that are in between. Some people are drinkers, some are not. Wherever they fall on the spectrum, you need to be able to work with all of them. They are your second family, and just like your blood relatives, you don't get to choose them. Drinking is not an issue. If you don't want to drink, you don't have to and no one will make you. Just don't let that be the excuse to avoid hanging out with your peers.

Or will I be this crazy O-1 who "thinks he's better than us?"

That's entirely up to you. People will develop that opinion only if you give them a reason to.

[Guest ROTC Jew]

It fascinates me that that's what your initial reaction was. I once wrote a whole explanation about the Jewish dating system, but suffice it to say:

1. We don't believe in dating outside of looking for marriage,

2. When that time comes it's not about the experience, but about finding out about a person. So yes, you can have fun on a date, but you wouldn't go to a movie since that doesn't tell you about anything. Dinner would be more appropriate.

3. Again, I wouldn't just 'pick up' a girl at a bar, I'd wait until someone's suggested, check out their background, and decide whether to continue (and she'll be doing the same). I just don't want people to think exactly THAT- that just because I'm not 100% like them doesn't mean I'm not 'normal.'

So perhaps it's normal nature, but as Lt. Birnbaum (Army) used to tell the people in his squad, "It's not my cup of tea."

[brickhistory]

Want to join the Air Force?

Then expect to do your job whenever and wherever it's time to work.

End of discussion.

Nobody will really care about your religion or lack thereof. Nobody will really care about you chasing tail or lack thereof. Nobody will care about your drinking or lack thereof.

Oh, except that prick Col Mohammed............................ er, sorry,

[StoleIt]

Your choice of screen name...wow...

I'd say Jewish people are one of the smallest minorities in the AF. Not saying that as a good or bad thing, just statement of fact.

At my field training I only saw one name under the Synagogue/Jewish Prayer, and she was a CTA. I decided to never go to any religious services at FT. But, at my old Det there are two other's Jews (which I was actually amazed at, but most of us are from Chicago so proportionately I think it was rather accurate).

I have seen Yamakah's (sp?) worn under the blue's service cap and nobody would ever know if you were sporting one under BDU cover anyway.

As for Kosher...how closely do you follow Kosher? Just no dairy and meat or also a Rabbi blessing the utensils and preparing the food? Because while it is relatively easy to separate dairy and meat I don't think you will be able to get a Rabbi in at Field Training to prepare the food (my experience).

[Guest Cap-10]

ROTC Jew,

Like stated above, no one will give a rat's arse about your not wanting to drink or smoke. However, it you are not willing to hang around the bar every Friday now and again to shoot the breeze, have a good bitch and moan session, hang out for the roll call / naming ceremony, then it will make a difference.

As for the other stuff, the biggest item I see is the observance of Shabbat (refraining from activities that violate the Jewish sabbath for all you others). If you are in the military now a days, you WILL deploy. The war doesn't stop on the sabbath (Fri-Sat for Jews, Sundays for Catholics). If every Catholic and Jew asked for sabbath off to reflect, we'd be in trouble. Asking the scheduler for every Sabbath and every Jewish Holiday off, at least in my squadron, would go over like a fart in synagogue. Again this is in the deployed 24/7 environment (at home working M-F different story). The Ops tempo is too high and manning too low.

Bottom line: the mission comes first and when it comes time for you to support it, you will have to do it. As long as you are OK with the possibility of missing a Sabbath here and there, I don't see a problem.

Good Luck,

Cap-10

[HeloDude]

Dude, not to be negative, but I think you'll be in for a rude awakening if you hope you can have certain relgious holidays off, etc.

I'm a pretty devout Roman Catholic, try to attend mass every weekend, and there have been many times I haven't been able to go due to TDY's, flying on holy days, etc. However it doesn't interfere with my personal relationship with God because I'm not tryping to skip out of anything...it's just that my duty in the Air Force comes before me getting to go to mass. You can always see if your sup or cc will let you trade certain days off for weekends or something like that, but you can't 'expect' them too, especially if you're in a high demand job. At best you can hope for a pass on non-weekend holy days to be off or put in for leave, but that's about it. And it's not just against religious days...I once flew with a guy when I was the scheduler and he would be asked not to fly on certain days when it was his kid's birthday. Now as the scheduler I could maybe help him out, but if I needed him to fly, he was flying. He disagreed once and I told him that unless he was on a pass, on leave, or at a legitimate appointment, if he didn't want to fly, he had to go through the DO.

For the meal part, I doubt it will be too hard, but again I've never had to worry about what I could eat (except meat on Fridays during Lent). I used to fly with someone who was a vegan and it didn't seem to be too big of a problem. Maybe I'll ask one of the TCN's at the DVAC here at dinner if they have kosher meals...on second thought, maybe I won't, but if I hear something I'll let you know.

As for the girls thing, dude, you do what you have to do. Most people are going to be pretty cool with you, but you'll come across 'that guy' who maybe just jokes with everyone or doesn't know your situation and might poke fun at you. Just be a good sport about it, tell him what your situation is, and there shouldn't be much of a problem. Just know that everyone gives people a little bit of crap for some things...just how we let of steam.

The most pressing issue I have with the whole thing is the wanting days off part. The US military is setup primarily around Christianity when it comes to religion and with that, the majoirty of the Air Force works around the Mon-Fri standard work schedule (unless it's 24 hr ops) and everyone is expected to follow that schedule. If you're not going to be able to adjust to that, I'd strongly reconsider your desire to be in the Air Force. A squadron can't be changing things around all the time to help just one guy out.

Hope this helps bud, and best of luck in whatever you choose to do.

[Guest Curt22]

I'm a rising 100/200 at my local detachment (560, if it makes a difference) and I've asked this in many places, but apparently it's not too common. I hope you can help.

I'm an Orthodox Jew, and I was wondering if anyone had any insight into how possible accommodations are once I'm commissioned and assigned.

1. Sabbath- I'm fully willing to trade assignments with someone and work on Sunday, Easter, Christmas, etc. but is this an option?

2. Kosher- I've been assured that food is available, does anyone have personal experience with this? Good or bad?

3. I've heard rumors of the things that go on around military bases, and some of it suggests things I'd rather not be involved in. (I'm assuming you know what I'm talking about. I'll elaborate if necessary.)

4. Anything else I should be aware of?

Thank you all, and G-d bless.

Brick summed it up quite well...I've known several Jewish members of the AF and all were pro's, but none were orthidox that I know of. I confess I don't all the tenants of your religion but I think you will have a problem being excused for every single Sabbath and other holiday, so you may wish to ask your rabbi about any special dispensations that may be available...I'm sure there are orthidoxed Jews in the IAF/IDF...and I can't imagine they all can be excused from work on these days.

As for stuff going on around the bases...interpersonal relationships in the military are little different from what you find in civilian life. You will work people of all religions, races, both sex etc. You can expect to work with and find these people in positions of authority over you, but again, this is typical in civil life too. As for youngsters screwing around...sure this happens, but it's not like you will be called out if your not sleeping around...if this were so...many people would be suspect since many are trying "score" all the time, but few succeed! LOL

[afnav]

Many years ago, back in the OEF/OIF days, my crew was preparing to deploy on one of many trips to PSAB. I was bringing a brand new nav for his overwater qualification on the E-3. He was normally very calm and professional, but at the tail end of mission planning day I asked him if he was concerned about anything. He said he was Jewish, and was worried that the Saudis might somehow find out.

In all my years in the Air Force, Keith was the first Jew I had ever met in the Air Force, at least the only one who had told me. I agree with the above post about commonality. Not many out there.

[M2]

Dude, not to be negative, but I think you'll be in for a rude awakening if you hope you can have certain relgious holidays off, etc.

Not true, you can hope all you want...not, whether it happens or not is another question!

I would recommend trying to get in touch with a USAF rabbi and asking these questions. You'll probably get the same answers as here, and possibly more insight into what it is like being Jewish in the USAF.

Honestly, a person's religion is their business, and as long as you understand and accept that you may have to make adjustments due to your military service, you will be fine. But as stated, your service will take priority in some situations, even as an intel officer or if you do get to Cyber Command; and if you cannot accept that, then you should really look for some other line of work.

But it is not as big of an issue as you think. Hell, I even work with a Navy officer who is a Muslim. It's not about his or anyone's religion, but about getting the job done, that matters...

Cheers! M2

[brabus]

My flight cc at ASBC was an orthodox jew and was Acquisitions before he was an ASBC instructor (why the hell you'd want to do that I have no idea). I asked him about it out of curiosity and he said for the most part he had been accommodated pretty well. Secondly, you said you don't have a desire to do anything flying wise, so the comments above about hanging out for roll calls and at the bar on Friday night, etc. probably won't apply to you much, if at all. So, outside a deployed environment or exercise, you can pretty much count on a standard 9-430 M-F job. Some jobs will differ on that, but a lot of the support jobs (Finance, MPF, Services, etc) work those hours (or at least they claim to!).

[BADFNZ]

We had one Orthodox Jew in my OTS flight. This guy complained about everything to include meals, Sabbath, when he could and could not handle electronic equipment, etc. The OTS staff accommodated him in every way, yet he still found a way to bitch that he needed this or that. All I'm going to say is that they will do everything they can to accommodate your religious practices, but if you don't get your way one time or another, suck it up and remember that the needs of the AF come first.

[Guest ROTC Jew]

oh, wow, I wake up to all this! Thank you so much, everyone! In retrospect it seems I was very vague when I wrote this, mostly because I wasn't sure which points to clarify on. Anyway, it appears to be these:

1. All commandments are suspended in a situation where following them may cause a life-and-death problem. The only exceptions are murder (not to be confused with killing which may be necessary in war), committing immoral acts, and idol worship. Besides for that, any and all things (including the Sabbath and Kosher) are suspended. However, it takes a prudent authority in Jewish law to know just when that is. A base under attack, for example, is definitely a life-and-death issue, whereas simply being in a combat zone may or may not qualify. So obviously each situation is different

2. Kosher food doesn't mean food blessed by a Rabbi. This is a common misconception which I believe stems from Islam's Halal. Kosher food is much more involved, and a Rabbi's only job is to supervise the production and make sure it follows Kosher standards. Here's a link to a short video about what Kosher is:

Broadband version

Dial-up version

Main Site

3. Sabbath doesn't mean a collective "no work clause." There are specific categories of work that are forbidden, like writing, building, making a fire, etc. Within that poses many problems during a workday (not to mention a Rabbinical prohibition of 'doing weekday'ish' things) which is why I'd want to switch with someone. You see, my goal isn't to "make the schedule so that I can do my thing," it's to make the schedule so that we can all be accomodated. For example, that devout Christian I'm sure whould love to switch Saturday and Sundays with me (unless it's a M-F job, which, btw, how do you get those? Those would solve a lot of problems), and I'd also be willing (like I said) to work on other days that other people prefer to have off, like New Years. Meaning: I'm not just trying to "get away with it," I'm trying to meet in the middle.

4. Killing isn't forbidden by Jewish law- it's not preferable, but there's a whole section of Deutoronomy which deals with the laws of war. So I don't have to 'reconcile' my faith with that.

5. I'm not the complaining type, but BADFNZ and M2, would you be able to tell me how to contact these guys? I'd like to ask them some questions about all this.

6. Thanks for reminding me of something else. Swearing. People here use it all the time (including this thread) is it also rampant throughout the entire service? I was told by someone that officers do it less than enlisted- is this true?

Also, just as a side, it's very hard for me to be offended, just in general. I was the "guy to make fun of" from Kindergarten through 5th grade, and after that I learnt my lesson. So don't worry about making jokes or coming on harsh. As long as it's not an outright racial slur, I can take a joke. Which is also why that's my screen name- I don't hide anything. I'm proud to be living in a country where I can proudly state my religion- and where I can help defend it.

I'm attaching a word doc written by an AF chaplain for this very purpose. Perhaps it will help you get a better idea of what I'm talking about.

A_guide_for_the_Air_Force_Officer_my_version.doc

Thank you all!

Edited June 15, 2008 by ROTC Jew

[old crow]

6. Thanks for reminding me of something else. Swearing. People here use it all the time (including this thread) is it also rampant throughout the entire service? I was told by someone that officers do it less than enlisted- is this true?

avoid a flying job if swearing bothers you

[Guest gonzo]

The entire Israeli Air Force pulls off Judaism and the Air Force pretty well...

[Guest ROTC Jew]

That's the idea ;) Like I said, I'm more interested in cyber/space command

[M2]

5. I'm not the complaining type, but BADFNZ and M2, would you be able to tell me how to contact these guys? I'd like to ask them some questions about all this.

Try this site first: http://www.usafhc.af.mil/main/contactus.asp

And if you are unsuccesful, let me know and I will track down a Jewish Chaplain here at Lackland.

Also, you may want to read through this: http://online.jcca.org/press_jwb.html

Cheers! M2

[Guest ROTC Jew]

Thanks. I've spoken with a Chaplain already (and still am). The thing is, they don't really know what happens in the day-to-day of things, as they deal more with the services aspect of things. That's why I'd like to speak to actual religious personnel who have been there done that (or still are).

[brickhistory]

6. Thanks for reminding me of something else. Swearing. People here use it all the time (including this thread) is it also rampant throughout the entire service? I was told by someone that officers do it less than enlisted- is this true?

Yeah, those peasants aren't as polished as we uber-mortal officer class.

Dude, seriously! Cussin' is part and parcel of life - USAF or not. You don't have to, and by that example, I bet you will find most around you will try to refrain around you, but please disabuse (sts) yourself of this 'class' system. There are tremendous folks in uniform, officer and enlisted. There are complete assho...uh, wastes of flesh, officer and enlisted.

You commission, should you earn one, does not make you better than the enlisted force; it does make you responsible for the well-being of those under your command.

Sorry, I'll put down the

[Clayton Bigsby]

If vulgar language bothers you, but raining and possibly enduring death and destruction doesn't...

[Guest thefranchise]

3. I've heard that there's a lot of mingling between the genders to different extents, ranging from platonic to something more and beyond. While I will of course be respectful to all officers and airmen, regardless of gender, beyond that I try to stay away from inter-gender relationships. That's what I'm referring to. Will that be respected? Or will I be this crazy O-1 who "thinks he's better than us?" Just as a side, I don't drink (personal preference, not religious), smoke, etc. although I have no problem "hanging out" at a bar, pool hall, whatever, as long as they don't expect me to participate in those things, or try to "get girls."

from my experience, your religion will only be an issue with those you work with to the extent that you make it an issue.

[Guest MizzouCE]

Not to put you down, but this comes across to me as kind of like the black pilot thread from a while back. Sure find out what the AF can do for you with making it easier for you to practice and all, and great on you for looking up what all is around for you, but you know it will be difficult and the AF doesn't care about any religion/ethnicity as long as you don't make it such an issue that people resent you or that you create extra work/hardships for your peers.

So your religion is a little different than the majority, but if it going to be a huge deal for you, it might be a deal breaker and you need to see how your priorities are layed out and how much change you can endure and still feel okay about it.