Gun Talk

[BigFreddie]

Our going in assumption in training is that we are surprised by the intruder(s). So only one of us gets a weapon during any one training session. The vocal warning has three purposes: 1) startle the intruder into departing the killzone post haste (desired outcome), 2) permit the shooter the knowledge that the intruder was warned before being shot, and 3) is as much a "war cry" as a warning--dispel enough stress to shoot straight and stop shaking, etc., in what will (hopefully) be a short, violent, stressful situation. In our scenarios, there's usually not much time between warning and trigger press.

"stopped" or "down" or "neutralized"...all the same to me=no longer a threat.

So, be Billy-Badass all you want, harp on my vocabulary if you choose, and insinuate your technique is better than anyone elses if you desire. I'm trying realistic scenario-based training designed to get my shooters focused on survival in very close quarters--the longest possible shot in my living room is less than 20 feet. I believe a close hold shot is the best way to keep hold of the gun and put lead on target at close range. YMMV, and I hope to God we never, ever have to put these techniques to the test.

I think it is foolish to only practice this technique - which is what it sounds like you are doing from your posts. I would definitely want to expand my training to include other aspects as well. It is much like flying - we always practice the difficult maneuvers but we also practice the easy ones too.

For the person buying a handgun for the female in the house - watch getting into autoloaders. I've never had a problem racking the slide on an autoloader so I ASSumed it was that way for everyone. So I bought a used HK P7 PSP for my wife. Squeeze-cock action so it is safe, 8 round 9mm capacity, very reliable and rugged. Well, that whole plan blew up in my face when I determined my wife could neither squeeze it hard enough to get it cocked (STS) nor rack the slide. So now I have another gun for my collection she can't use... Probably going to look at a pink S&W revolver in .38 now...

BF

The M&P .40. I dont know what to say about this weapon except to say that it shoots like a friggin laser beam. The bore axis is low, felt recoil is minimal, and it has the hallmark reliability of Glock and H&K both. S&W did their homework with this one. It is NOT a rebuilt sigma. Not a single part is interchangeable. So don't make the mistake of thinking it is. The interchangeable backstraps made it very customizable and with the large palm swell, melt into my hand. It really perfects the trigger reach when wearing flight gloves (such as a lot of soldiers do on patrol). Speaking of the trigger, it doesn't break quuuuiiiiteee as clean as the Glocks but it's right there with it and I actually feel that it's a smoother pull, and thereby prefer it. Short reset as well. For me it all came together to form my perfect sidearm. I can hit what I aim at, it won't let me down if I don't clean it all the time, it can take an a** kicking and keep sending rounds, and its the right price. Depending on where you pick one up it should fall right around the Glock and Beretta price range. (450-600).

Hope this helps

You can always install some parts from Apex Tactical to improve the trigger. Very easy to do and the parts are fairly inexpensive. You can look up videos on YouTube to see how to install the parts...

[Vertigo]

Got to vent some frustration at the range today.

Put around 500 rounds downrange in the SCAR. 30 or so in the M110 SASS. Countless in the MK48 mod 0 and MK 46, and M249.

[Royal]

Got to vent some frustration at the range today.

Put around 500 rounds downrange in the SCAR. 30 or so in the M110 SASS. Countless in the MK48 mod 0 and MK 46, and M249.

Color me jealous. What do you have to say about the SCAR?

[Vertigo]

Color me jealous. What do you have to say about the SCAR?

By far my favorite of the day. Decent amount of kick to it but damn it was fun. Full auto was pure bliss.

[snafu]

Another wife technique so to speak: We put a glow in the dark strip on back of closet door at height of one's mid-level of torso. She is to run into closet and put red dot on/near strip on back of door. Handle moves, squeeze trigger. Hope she doesn't have to use it but I tried to take the aiming process out of it. Best I could think of.

Vertigo: Badass!

[StoleIt]

Extremely jealous there Vertigo.

You an ALO right now?

[M2]

Our going in assumption in training is that we are surprised by the intruder(s). So only one of us gets a weapon during any one training session. The vocal warning has three purposes: 1) startle the intruder into departing the killzone post haste (desired outcome), 2) permit the shooter the knowledge that the intruder was warned before being shot, and 3) is as much a "war cry" as a warning--dispel enough stress to shoot straight and stop shaking, etc., in what will (hopefully) be a short, violent, stressful situation. In our scenarios, there's usually not much time between warning and trigger press.

"stopped" or "down" or "neutralized"...all the same to me=no longer a threat.

So, be Billy-Badass all you want, harp on my vocabulary if you choose, and insinuate your technique is better than anyone elses if you desire. I'm trying realistic scenario-based training designed to get my shooters focused on survival in very close quarters--the longest possible shot in my living room is less than 20 feet. I believe a close hold shot is the best way to keep hold of the gun and put lead on target at close range. YMMV, and I hope to God we never, ever have to put these techniques to the test.

Do what you want, if you want to waste your time and risk your life by giving a verbal warning; feel free to do so. But having trained on and discussed such scenarios with more experts than I care to count, the consensus is that it is a risky and unnecessary tactic; and even worse if you are teaching this to others as you are risking their lives with such a useless technique.

And if you also feel that holding the gun closer to your body is a better technique, that's your prerogative as well; but I see it as being wrought with potentially dangerous consequences, one of which is an inability to properly aim the weapon, and don't see any advantages to it.

Lastly, if you are indeed providing "realistic scenario-based training" you had better have your shit tighter than a goose's asshole! Otherwise, you're causing more harm than good. It's one thing to teach some basic techniques on firing a weapon, but another entirely to train them on unconventional and even controversial tactics is something entirely different!

If you really want to help people, teach them something they can actually use, such as quick target acquisition (too many stand and aim at a target trying to show how well they shoot, instead of practices how well they can hit a human-sized target as quickly as possible), or offhand shooting, or clearing a FTF/FTE quickly or with one hand.

[Learjetter]

Do what you want, if you want to waste your time and risk your life by giving a verbal warning; feel free to do so. But having trained on and discussed such scenarios with more experts than I care to count, the consensus is that it is a risky and unnecessary tactic; and even worse if you are teaching this to others as you are risking their lives with such a useless technique.

And if you also feel that holding the gun closer to your body is a better technique, that's your prerogative as well; but I see it as being wrought with potentially dangerous consequences, one of which is an inability to properly aim the weapon, and don't see any advantages to it.

Lastly, if you are indeed providing "realistic scenario-based training" you had better have your shit tighter than a goose's asshole! Otherwise, you're causing more harm than good. It's one thing to teach some basic techniques on firing a weapon, but another entirely to train them on unconventional and even controversial tactics is something entirely different!

If you really want to help people, teach them something they can actually use, such as quick target acquisition (too many stand and aim at a target trying to show how well they shoot, instead of practices how well they can hit a human-sized target as quickly as possible), or offhand shooting, or clearing a FTF/FTE quickly or with one hand.

Opinions noted. $5 says if we were at a range and we demonstrated what we are each talking about, and trying to teach, we'd be closer to full agreement than we can be here, without posting videos or typing for hours. I don't disagree with your last paragraph at all, and those skills are indeed important.

Ultimately, without seeing each others techniques, it's probably a stretch to say you're wrong...so I'll just say I'm happy with what we're doing.

/break break

Anyone here watching the history channel's TOP SHOT competition? It's fun to watch!

[M2]

For you fellow Mosinitis sufferers out there...

Got a call from a bud of mine saying he knew someone locally who had a 1893 Châtellerault (ШАТЕЛБРО) M91 for sale. Of course I had to check it out, I've got a 1917 Remington and a 1915 NEW, as well as a 1915 Sestroryetsk, so I just had to have Châtellerault!

Well, for four bills this is what I got...

I've blurred the last two numbers of the serial...

I believe this is the infamous Balkan "pinecone"...

Obviously it's not the original stock, but for that price it's not expected. And the handguards are loose, but overall I'm just tickled to have finally found one at a reasonable price!

Cheers! M2

[StoleIt]

I want to see what the M2 gun vault looks like.

2.

And drunken range report:

M1A Springfield Loaded with Troy MCS = Tack driver.

Iron sights...yea. Too drunk to do math to do a MOA count...but damn. Waiting on my castle nut wrench to come in so I can swap the VLTOR stock that is on it with a Magpul PRS and then a quality optic. Bring on the ZOMBIES!!!

[StoleIt]

Castle nut wrench came in. Stock swap (M1A had the VLTOR and the AR had the PRS originally):

[Nineline]

I'm not a huge fan of wheel guns (yet?), but I ran across this S&W 638 Airweight revolver in .38 special on Bud's site for LE and military today and it got my attention.

What makes this even more attractive is the ongoing military S&W rebate that knocks an additional $50 off the price.

All said, it looks to be one of the better deals out there.

-9-

[Timbonez]

I'm not a huge fan of wheel guns (yet?), but I ran across this S&W 638 Airweight revolver in .38 special on Bud's site for LE and military today and it got my attention.

What makes this even more attractive is the ongoing military S&W rebate that knocks an additional $50 off the price.

All said, it looks to be one of the better deals out there.

-9-

I used to dislike wheelguns, but that quickly changed after I bought my first S&W N-frame. S&W is the way to go for revolvers.

[brickhistory]

I'm not a huge fan of wheel guns (yet?), but I ran across this S&W 638 Airweight revolver in .38 special on Bud's site for LE and military today and it got my attention.

What makes this even more attractive is the ongoing military S&W rebate that knocks an additional $50 off the price.

All said, it looks to be one of the better deals out there.

-9-

\

Nice snag.

Revolvers are interesting because you can get different calibers.

While modern semi-autos are very, very reliable for the most part, there is also the complexity of the mechanism to consider. A revolver is simpler mechanically thus statisically (I would think, no research done nor planned) more reliable. However, that risk is more than compensated for, in my opinion, by the number of rounds available and speed of reloading a semi vs. a revolver.

And there is nothing quite like the bank vault-like sensation of thumbing a quality revolver and having the cylinder rotate, the hammer retract, and trigger go to single action.

But both are cool.

Viva la difference!

Post up a report if you get and shoot the 638.

[czecksikhs]

To celebrate UBL departing our earthly company, SKD Tactical has 25% off your order today.

http://www.skdtac.com/

[Timbonez]

To celebrate UBL departing our earthly company, SKD Tactical has 25% off your order today.

http://www.skdtac.com/

I like the first sentence in their 25% off ad.

ETA: And the promo code.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Timbonez

[yerfer]

I'm looking to buy a new pistol in about 2 weeks. I've narrowed down to the Sig Sauer P226 .40 or the H&K USP Compact .40

Does anyone here have any experience with these two guns? I'd like to hear your thoughts. Thanks guys.

[yerfer]

Two great guns, can't go wrong with either (other than price). I say try to get your hands on both of them at your local range and pick up the one you shoot best with.

Thanks. I'm gonna try to get out and shoot both on Friday. My girlfriend currently carries the P239 and it's a great gun which she is happy with. For myself I want to carry something a bit larger. The 226 is a little big for everyday carry, but fits my hand really well. So does the USPc though...

Bullet capacity is a +1 difference between the two and the price is the same where I will be purchasing.

One of the issues with the USPc that might be a negative factor is the trigger pull tension. Seems in DA mode you have to pull a long distance before it goes tight. It's probably something I can just get use to. IMO, the Sig is an ideal trigger but it is what I'm use to. I'll see if my local ranges carry them to demo each.

[yerfer]

Went to the range in hopes of shooting the 226 and USPc. Only got to shoot the USPc since they didn't have the 226. I still stand by what I said about the HK trigger. Went through 100 rounds trying to get use to it. I did notice a considerable difference in my groupings after 50 rounds but the trigger is something I would want to adjust. The trigger flexes to much and IMO should be more sturdy. Does anyone here have any experience with doing a trigger job on the USP Compact? I did a google search and saw a few people say they replaced the trigger with the HK Expert trigger.

While in the process I ran into an ex Green Beret and retired Sheriff who was cool enough to let me shoot his Colt 1911 Commander 45ACP which he claimed had over 25,000 rounds through it. The trigger was about 3.5 lbs and shot better than anything I've ever experienced. He also pulled out an old Astra 9mm from the 90's that was built around the Sig design. Shot almost comparable to the Colt.

I've come to the conclusion that a full metal gun will be my second purchase after the H&K assuming I adjust to the trigger or get a trigger job done. The H&K shot very accurate and didn't jam once. The payload capacity is sufficient enough and being that it is a part polymer gun, it will be better for everyday carry.

[M2]

J&G finally got these back in stock, so I got a wild hair and ordered one. I've been wanting a Yugo Zastava M76 DMR for a while now, and since they've gotten pretty scarce I thought I'd jump on this opportunity before it too disappeared...

Should be here in about a week...

Cheers! M2

[Smokey]

Went to the range in hopes of shooting the 226 and USPc. Only got to shoot the USPc since they didn't have the 226. I still stand by what I said about the HK trigger. Went through 100 rounds trying to get use to it. I did notice a considerable difference in my groupings after 50 rounds but the trigger is something I would want to adjust. The trigger flexes to much and IMO should be more sturdy. Does anyone here have any experience with doing a trigger job on the USP Compact? I did a google search and saw a few people say they replaced the trigger with the HK Expert trigger.

While in the process I ran into an ex Green Beret and retired Sheriff who was cool enough to let me shoot his Colt 1911 Commander 45ACP which he claimed had over 25,000 rounds through it. The trigger was about 3.5 lbs and shot better than anything I've ever experienced. He also pulled out an old Astra 9mm from the 90's that was built around the Sig design. Shot almost comparable to the Colt.

I've come to the conclusion that a full metal gun will be my second purchase after the H&K assuming I adjust to the trigger or get a trigger job done. The H&K shot very accurate and didn't jam once. The payload capacity is sufficient enough and being that it is a part polymer gun, it will be better for everyday carry.

Have shot 1000's of rounds with an HK 40 USP. The single most dependable gun I've had. I didn't read through the thread completely but am curious as to your trigger issues. Now, my experience is with the LEO model so may be a different experience. The trigger was effortless and consistent leading to greater accuracy. The LEO model is of course meant to be drawn and ready to shoot. It is always chambered and cocked with no de-cocking lever or safety once a round is chambered. I don't have experience with the standard model nor would I want to. If I draw and aim, I mean to fire.

Can you expand some.

Smokey

[Smokey]

I'm looking to buy a new pistol in about 2 weeks. I've narrowed down to the Sig Sauer P226 .40 or the H&K USP Compact .40

Does anyone here have any experience with these two guns? I'd like to hear your thoughts. Thanks guys.

To add to the other post, I have shot the Sig 357 caliber model. FAMs use them. I like the HK better. Again, both were LEO models so may be a different experience. There is no double action on a LEO model. SAO. The HK SA trigger is far superior IMO. Thousands of rounds......not a single issue.....but I'm pretty anal when it comes to cleaning it and replacing weak clip springs.

Smokey

[Smokey]

\

Nice snag.

Revolvers are interesting because you can get different calibers.

While modern semi-autos are very, very reliable for the most part, there is also the complexity of the mechanism to consider. A revolver is simpler mechanically thus statisically (I would think, no research done nor planned) more reliable. However, that risk is more than compensated for, in my opinion, by the number of rounds available and speed of reloading a semi vs. a revolver.

And there is nothing quite like the bank vault-like sensation of thumbing a quality revolver and having the cylinder rotate, the hammer retract, and trigger go to single action.

But both are cool.

Viva la difference!

Post up a report if you get and shoot the 638.

I have to disagree. Not that revolvers are simpler, however the moving parts issue comes into question. There really isn't that much difference. And, so long as either type of pistol is properly maintained, reliability isn't a question. For instance, an HK 40 USP breakdown is a no brainer (good for me). So is the breakdown on my 1960 era Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 Mag. After thousands of rounds in each, the HK has never had an issue. Granted, age is a player, however, the Ruger's cylinder pin will pop out after 20 or so rounds. Gunsmith has gone over it multiple times and can't figure it out (perhaps I'll find a new one). Now, I'd rather have a stove pipe than a cylinder misaligned (of course I see it when it happens and it is pissing me off royally). I'll clear the stove pipe with a tap and rack (never had one on the HK btw). Cylinder pin.....not so fast.

Smokey

Edited May 14, 2011 by Smokey

[Smokin]

Finally got my CC permit (been overseas for awhile). I planned to carry my XD9 sub-compact, but despite being 'sub-compact' it is still a little weighty and seems like it will take some effort to conceal it in the summer wearing shorts and a t-shirt. At the range today, the guy next to me had a slim Kahr .38 and that seems like a type of gun I would be more likely to carry on a regular basis. I know M2 likes the Taurus PT709 and that is a contender. Anyone have any experience with the Kahr PM9 or any other similar guns? For ammo simplicity, I'm going to stick with the 9mm.

[HossHarris]

Finally got my CC permit ....

The belt is the key!