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Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

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Ok, let's all take a deep breath and take the emotion down a notch.  Big picture...HAF has bigger fish to fry than keeping pilots on the right side of the happy meter.  Top of the list: finding $$ to recapitalize our fleet.  We have tools to (short term) solve a potential pilot shortfall and (long term) ensure it doesn't happen again.  No hesitation will occur if we cross the red line.  Pilot satisfaction is simply not at the top of the list right now with tools like stop loss, expanded commitments, and (good possibility) expanded bonus options available.

Hate the messenger all you want...fair warning: heed the message.

As a Guard guy, I don't have a dog in this fight, but how can you completely disregard what the disenfranchised group of people are telling you? How can you not listen to them when they explain how to help alleviate some of your manning problems? I think you get it completely wrong when you say their happiness is a nonfactor. Big Blue may not be corporate America, but employee satisfaction is important. This is the AIR Force. Whether you like it or not, pilots are a crucial part of what the AIR Force is all about. I truly hope your comments are not representative of AFPC, but after following this thread from the beginning and over 2200 posts, nothing that has come out of there has proven otherwise. God help those on AD.

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This is going to be comical to watch.  The view of those like Chang will truly be the downfall of the Air Force.  Once the true volunteer aspect leaves with stop-loss or indentured servitude type contracts, the train will come off the tracks.

As a red blooded, combat proven American, there's one thing  I value more than anything.  That's freedom to do what the I want with my life.  I gave 13 years of my life to the defense of my nation.  I am proud of that, but the moment I felt that was being taken for granted, I stopped playing the game and took my ball elsewhere.

My advice to anyone on the fence is to start getting your plan together yesterday. If there is stop-loss, go back to your SERE days of using passive resistance.  If I was stop-loss'd, I'd stop doing every single additional duty and focus 100% on flying.  I'd call out sick at least once a week.  I'd fail every single PT test.  Hell, I'd find a way to go DNIF without messing up my airline prospects.

I hope it doesn't come to what Chang is proposing, but realize your Sr Leadership, both in Congress and in the Pentagon may have just become your enemy.

I thank God every day I was able to get out when I did.  I landed on my feet and I know you guys will too.

Edited by Vetter
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8 hours ago, General Chang said:

Ok, let's all take a deep breath and take the emotion down a notch.  Big picture...HAF has bigger fish to fry than keeping pilots on the right side of the happy meter.  Top of the list: finding $$ to recapitalize our fleet.  We have tools to (short term) solve a potential pilot shortfall and (long term) ensure it doesn't happen again.  No hesitation will occur if we cross the red line.  Pilot satisfaction is simply not at the top of the list right now with tools like stop loss, expanded commitments, and (good possibility) expanded bonus options available.

Hate the messenger all you want...fair warning: heed the message.

Yet there are plenty of things that can be done with out using any/or just a little bit of funding (like the money from expanding the bonus)

When the writing has been on the wall for over a decade, I have negative sympathy for the results of planning like what you propose. And I thank the Gods of Aviation I went Guard!

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I have heard some substantiated rumors that leadership has basically said that we aren't going to be able to meet in the middle on retention and the focus is now simply on absorption (at least in the 11F world).  The FTU business is already seeing increased numbers and reduced timelines between classes.  It will take a few years to see if it works but it does seem like big blue has chosen the path of accepting a couple more years of low 11F manning and waiting for this surge of output to "fix the glitch."  Of course, in standard AF sine wave fashion this same conversation will be repeated in a few years when everyone being jammed through the pipeline right now starts getting out for all the same reasons.  Think that the AF will ever learn that retention really is a problem they need to solve with something other than a check?

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5 minutes ago, TheInner said:

I have heard some substantiated rumors that leadership has basically said that we aren't going to be able to meet in the middle on retention and the focus is now simply on absorption (at least in the 11F world).  The FTU business is already seeing increased numbers and reduced timelines between classes.  It will take a few years to see if it works but it does seem like big blue has chosen the path of accepting a couple more years of low 11F manning and waiting for this surge of output to "fix the glitch." 

Right now, in a cubicle in Atlanta, Dallas, and Chicago, some bean counter just said, "More input, hmm...  10 minus 1, carry the 2, divide by 3... so you'll be trained and ready to interview in 8.69 years?  Perfect."

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9 hours ago, General Chang said:

Ok, let's all take a deep breath and take the emotion down a notch.  Big picture...HAF has bigger fish to fry than keeping pilots on the right side of the happy meter.  Top of the list: finding $$ to recapitalize our fleet.  We have tools to (short term) solve a potential pilot shortfall and (long term) ensure it doesn't happen again.  No hesitation will occur if we cross the red line.  Pilot satisfaction is simply not at the top of the list right now with tools like stop loss, expanded commitments, and (good possibility) expanded bonus options available.

Hate the messenger all you want...fair warning: heed the message.

Choke yourself you sanctimonious prick.   For the record, you are not as smart as you think you are, you have simply become a mindless part of the collective, endlessly spewing the same old PA verbiage.  Here is the thing, I know the game, I’ve done all the in-res schools….ACSC, ASG, War College in DC…and I’ve sat behind the glass doors on the E-Ring as an exec and watched the buffoonery.  Playing the $ money card overlooks a GLARING error, we did it to ourselves.  The lack of vision from people like Buzz and Zatar is what got us here, for all too long we have been stuck in the endless Do Loop of “we can only have a fifth gen force” and we are paying the price for it in spades.  10 years ago a LOT of very smart people tried to tell them the $ crunch was coming and we could not afford a force of only F-22’s and F-35’s.  Despite the fact that on the second night of OIF A-10’s were fighting inside the “Super MEZ”, the seniors insisted we double-down on fifth gen and now we cry when we have no $ to buy anything else. What do you expect when we are flying Raptors that cost $44,000 a flying hour and F-35’s that cost $36,000 a flying hour instead of a mixed high-low fleet that could have economically fought the fight we have been in for the 15 YEARS!  Then as we piled ever more coal into the 5th gen steam engine that we couldn’t afford, we decided to cut people to pay the bill, and we took those people from the admin heart of the Squadrons (CSS), where they were needed most…Now, after purposely cutting people we suddenly come to the conclusion that the Air Force is On Verge of Manpower Collapse…freaking brilliant! 

Sadly, we had multiple chances to off-ramp this road to perdition and the Navy tried to show us the way like in 2006 when they broke the “no more 4th gen fighters for any service pact.” I was there the day the boss found out the Navy was getting 24 extra Super Hornets and I was in close trail as he barged into the N-8 office screaming explicatives at the CNO and his XP staff.  The Navy response “well the Super Hornet is not a 4th gen airplane, it is a 4.5 gen airplane and we probably can’t afford all the F-35’s anyway.”  Congress has been more than willing to gift us extra Vipers and Eagles every year, but we foolishly keep saying no and doubled down to the point we had to start closing fighter squadrons to pay the bills.  The last ten years have seen a steady retreat from the TacAir redline, No lower than 2,300 fighters!…Ok No lower than 2,100 fighters!  There was a huge gasp at 2,000, but we sliced right past that number faster than some late night yaki mandu through your system after a Friday night in Aragon Alley.  As we started closing fighter squadrons we suddenly had fewer to fill AEF taskings so the bros and sisters on the end of the whip have to run even faster to make up for the shortage…starting to see the picture now?

When it comes to your "retention tools" again, you don’t get it…what you call having bigger fish to fry than keeping pilots on the right side of the happy meter and using STOP LOSS as a retention tool is the PROOF that the entire thing is a scam.  How can senior leaders profess to care about the force, mission first…people always, and say things like “Morale is pretty darn good” almost in the same breath they admit the Air Force is on the verge of a manpower collapse?  This CSAF has made countless impassioned speeches about caring for people and “every Airman has a story”, but in the end as you admit the people are just numbers and their happiness doesn’t really matter.  I get it that you will never make everyone happy and there will always be sport bitching, but this is something very different.  This is the heart of your ability to be an Air Force, your professional pilot force telling you with their feet…”THINGS ARE Fed UP!”  Only 38% of the pilot force took the bonus last year and the numbers look worse for this year…so I would submit you better make time to fix the happy meter. 

 It is not about hating the messenger, it is about hating the smug asshat that parades around the room showing glee in his pronouncements from on high.  You represent much of what is wrong with the current system.

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12 hours ago, General Chang said:

Ok, let's all take a deep breath and take the emotion down a notch.  Big picture...HAF has bigger fish to fry than keeping pilots on the right side of the happy meter.  Top of the list: finding $$ to recapitalize our fleet.  We have tools to (short term) solve a potential pilot shortfall and (long term) ensure it doesn't happen again.  No hesitation will occur if we cross the red line.  Pilot satisfaction is simply not at the top of the list right now with tools like stop loss, expanded commitments, and (good possibility) expanded bonus options available.

Hate the messenger all you want...fair warning: heed the message.

I would start looking under the cushions in this jet.

F-35%2Bcartoon.003.jpg

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It amazes me that anyone would call stop-loss a "retention tool".  Granted, you keep a few people a little longer in the short term, but if the problem is that you are burning out the force, it only accelerates the burn and speeds the increasing percentage of the force that makes the decision to bail out ASAP.  Additionally, a lot of potential accessions see the burn and decide to go elsewhere to either fly, or adopt a different career, so not only does retention of the existing force suffer but it makes it harder to get new bodies in the pipeline.  Retention means appealing to the force in a manner to make them WANT to stay in, not MAKE them stay in.  BTW, I'd sure like to see some of those other "long term solutions".  If pilots are getting out for a set of definable reasons, I'd hope the solutions address them, and not a few PC headliners that look good in the media, like working hard on that multi-gender bathroom issue.

Maybe I'm just an old dinosaur, but in my 49 years of AD and contractor service to the AF and DoD I've seen this road traveled three times and it hasn't worked yet!!

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Ok, let's all take a deep breath and take the emotion down a notch.  Big picture...HAF has bigger fish to fry than keeping pilots on the right side of the happy meter.  Top of the list: finding $$ to recapitalize our fleet.  We have tools to (short term) solve a potential pilot shortfall and (long term) ensure it doesn't happen again.  No hesitation will occur if we cross the red line.  Pilot satisfaction is simply not at the top of the list right now with tools like stop loss, expanded commitments, and (good possibility) expanded bonus options available.

Hate the messenger all you want...fair warning: heed the message.

But you have the opportunity, a pivotal moment, to implement actual organizational change and fix the culture that is driving people to leave. No money required, just amending useless/harmful policies and leadership behavior.

Or, you can implement stop-gap measures that will perpetuate the problem of discord.

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2 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

But you have the opportunity, a pivotal moment, to implement actual organizational change and fix the culture that is driving people to leave. No money required, just amending useless/harmful policies and leadership behavior.

Or, you can implement stop-gap measures that will perpetuate the problem of discord.

True - but thinking about this, is he (next CSAF) willing to do what is really necessary to recover the jet.  In order to affect the change needed, pretty much he's going to have change out if not the entire GO cadre in USAF, a helluva lot of them and get a SECAF willing to clean out the dead wood on his/her side also.  Lower echelons also to some degree.

We can come up with great proposals but until you get rid of the obstacles that just water it down till there's no punch nothing will happen...

He will have to let a lot of his friends get a chance to get on board or get a pink slip...

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I hope people like Chang are taking this info and choosing to use it wisely. Honestly I bet they are not.

Just sat in a meeting with a bunch of IG members and they said that every base they visit complains about two things: two much queep (in the form of additional duties and what not) and poor manning.

This queep stays for some ridiculous reason and there are ways to fix the manning (start by going back to the first problem).

Also take a look at flight pay they numbers haven't changed much since 1989. That inflated value of the $650 a month category is $1185. I know that doesn't change everything but that is $6k a year. Maybe that doesn't fix everything but it won't hurt. I personally would rather take a flight pay increase of signing my life away to collect about $15k in bonus money.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Guys, this is easy from the AF perspective...if we start having a significant long-term problem with retention, we'll stop-loss in the near term and move to 15-yr commitments long term.  Take it to the bank.  And before you pilots start whining on this forum, you knew this would be a possibility when you signed on the bottom line.

The more of your friends that take the bonus, the longer we can put off S.L. and expanded commitments.

How ridiculous is this? Do you actually read what you post?

So if individuals have already signed TEN year commitment they should sign another one (up to 9 years) to prevent up coming up with a long commitment.

Sounds completely sensible......or not.

Let work on common sense here.

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16 hours ago, General Chang said:

Ok, let's all take a deep breath and take the emotion down a notch.  Big picture...HAF has bigger fish to fry than keeping pilots on the right side of the happy meter.  Top of the list: finding $$ to recapitalize our fleet.  We have tools to (short term) solve a potential pilot shortfall and (long term) ensure it doesn't happen again.  No hesitation will occur if we cross the red line.  Pilot satisfaction is simply not at the top of the list right now with tools like stop loss, expanded commitments, and (good possibility) expanded bonus options available.

Hate the messenger all you want...fair warning: heed the message.

You can have all the gucci gear you want, its not going to make a difference in the world if you don't have a force of highly trained/skilled/motivated people to fly/maintain/support the gear. I have seen your office, among others take the most valuable asset this military has (motivated people excited about their job) and turn them into bitter, disgruntled, and burnt out guys/gals counting down the days until they can GTFO. You don't get that its not about the money. History has shown, the most modern and powerful militaries have been defeated time and time again, by inferior and ill equipped enemies, that have a motived force with a reason to fight. People are your most valuable asset, and you are bending them over and giving it to them with no lube. Out. I have to go do my SAPR CBT............

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Question from a new Lt (flame suit on) who won't graduate UPT for another 2 years or so: If the ADSC is increased to 15 years, would those of us who have already signed the 10 year ADSC paperwork (before commissioning) be grandfathered in or would we have our ADSCs pushed out to 15 years as well? Research indicates that shorter ADSCs were grandfathered in at least once in the past.

If this belongs somewhere else, let the public humiliation begin and I'll change course.

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First off, nothing's certain until it actually happens. There are lots more rumors then facts. I've taken a few surveys on my thoughts of a 10 yr ADSC + 5 years reserve, but the only place I've seen a 15 year AD commitment discussed is here.

Secondly, you'll sign more ADSC paperwork when you get on AD. Those will be the ones that matter. 

Finally, the decade+ ADSC paperwork only takes effect from when you complete training. If they change it up after you commission (which would be incredibly poor taste but whatever) you can drop on request from training. While some may frown upon this, it happens enough for it to be considered common. When push comes to shove, people realize they don't want to spend the next 10+ years of doing something they don't thoroughly enjoy.. and we'd rather the student makes the choice in pilot training than once in an AD unit.

 

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The last time they changed the commitment...people at a certain point at USAFA were grandfathered in. I think the same happened with ROTC. Those who were not at that point but were "committed" (juniors) were allowed to leave USAFA without a commitment but had to sign the 10 year ADSC to enter UPT. The rest of us schlubs got no choice...10 year commitment when we entered UPT.

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38 minutes ago, 172 wannabe said:

Question from a new Lt (flame suit on) who won't graduate UPT for another 2 years or so: If the ADSC is increased to 15 years, would those of us who have already signed the 10 year ADSC paperwork (before commissioning) be grandfathered in or would we have our ADSCs pushed out to 15 years as well? Research indicates that shorter ADSCs were grandfathered in at least once in the past.

If this belongs somewhere else, let the public humiliation begin and I'll change course.

A1 only intercepts course at 90 degrees so about every 4-5 years we go from full scale right or left deflection, either force shaping or stop loss of some sort, even if they made you sign a 10+5 type of commitment I put the odds of the AF staying on that manpower course that long as quite low, more likely during your commitment they would offer a Palace Chaise or other option to cull the herd based on some tea leaves or other equally based reasoning...

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It's incredibly disappointing how easily leaders talk about breaking the adsc contract through stop loss. It shows their lack of respect for us, and their lack of concern for the long term viability of this service. A 1 sided contract is no contract at all, and should not be referred to as such. 

To the Lt above, don't join this organization. Get out while you can. It's seriously not worth it, and it's only going to get worse. Chang is 100% right on what the future holds. Join the guard or the reserves if you want to fly military airplanes. 

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One of the saddest things about this whole debacle is that there are good dudes who are Majors and Lt Cols right now who will be left holding bag when the train finally does come off the rails.  The managers Chang represents will have their retirements and their well-paying consulting jobs and it's likely none of them will be held accountable for the Royal cluster they made out of a once great organization.  Hats off to those of you who choose or are forced to stick around and clean up the mess. 

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Jesus, are all the former posts a result of a dysfuntional gov't that doesn't know how or what to do? Is all this a result of the "establishment"? Starting to seriously wonder, let's bleed money off the military to pay for all the goddamn social programs that the democrat and socialist movements that have started in this country. Thanks to all the liberal mainstream media bias, teachers union (SCHOOL SYSTEM), etc, to dumb down our kids (and now adults that are supposed to be responsible) to think this way. just f******* disgusting. 

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Just to be clear, I am not slamming the previous posters. I am ranting on what a I perceive as an overall failure of our current gov't to not take care of our servicemen.

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Ok, let's all take a deep breath and take the emotion down a notch.  Big picture...HAF has bigger fish to fry than keeping pilots on the right side of the happy meter.  Top of the list: finding $$ to recapitalize our fleet.  We have tools to (short term) solve a potential pilot shortfall and (long term) ensure it doesn't happen again.  No hesitation will occur if we cross the red line.  Pilot satisfaction is simply not at the top of the list right now with tools like stop loss, expanded commitments, and (good possibility) expanded bonus options available.

Hate the messenger all you want...fair warning: heed the message.

Holy shit. If this is true, then you a-holes at HAF really are clueless. It's like the entire AF is stalling and leadership thinks they can pull out of it by adding more back stick. Great job gents, keep holding that stick in your lap (sts) all the way till we hit the ground.

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If there is stop-loss, go back to your SERE days of using passive resistance.  If I was stop-loss'd, I'd stop doing every single additional duty and focus 100% on flying.  I'd call out sick at least once a week.  I'd fail every single PT test.  Hell, I'd find a way to go DNIF without messing up my airline prospects.

This.

Pretty much what I was implying in my post a couple pages back. Good luck keeping the opstempo up with a force of indentured servants. If they implement stop loss as a retention tool, life's going to get much worse around the Sq for those dudes with a legit ADSC remaining when all the stuck-by-stop-loss dudes start dragging their feet. in A...

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On 5/17/2016 at 11:02 AM, ClearedHot said:

Choke yourself you sanctimonious prick.   

[lots of awesome slap down]

You represent much of what is wrong with the current system.

 

Well...  that oughta just about cover the fly-by....

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On May 17, 2016 at 6:02 AM, ClearedHot said:

Choke yourself you sanctimonious prick.   For the record, you are not as smart as you think you are, you have simply become a mindless part of the collective, endlessly spewing the same old PA verbiage.  Here is the thing, I know the game, I’ve done all the in-res schools….ACSC, ASG, War College in DC…and I’ve sat behind the glass doors on the E-Ring as an exec and watched the buffoonery.  Playing the $ money card overlooks a GLARING error, we did it to ourselves.  The lack of vision from people like Buzz and Zatar is what got us here, for all too long we have been stuck in the endless Do Loop of “we can only have a fifth gen force” and we are paying the price for it in spades.  10 years ago a LOT of very smart people tried to tell them the $ crunch was coming and we could not afford a force of only F-22’s and F-35’s.  Despite the fact that on the second night of OIF A-10’s were fighting inside the “Super MEZ”, the seniors insisted we double-down on fifth gen and now we cry when we have no $ to buy anything else. What do you expect when we are flying Raptors that cost $44,000 a flying hour and F-35’s that cost $36,000 a flying hour instead of a mixed high-low fleet that could have economically fought the fight we have been in for the 15 YEARS!  Then as we piled ever more coal into the 5th gen steam engine that we couldn’t afford, we decided to cut people to pay the bill, and we took those people from the admin heart of the Squadrons (CSS), where they were needed most…Now, after purposely cutting people we suddenly come to the conclusion that the Air Force is On Verge of Manpower Collapse…freaking brilliant! 

Sadly, we had multiple chances to off-ramp this road to perdition and the Navy tried to show us the way like in 2006 when they broke the “no more 4th gen fighters for any service pact.” I was there the day the boss found out the Navy was getting 24 extra Super Hornets and I was in close trail as he barged into the N-8 office screaming explicatives at the CNO and his XP staff.  The Navy response “well the Super Hornet is not a 4th gen airplane, it is a 4.5 gen airplane and we probably can’t afford all the F-35’s anyway.”  Congress has been more than willing to gift us extra Vipers and Eagles every year, but we foolishly keep saying no and doubled down to the point we had to start closing fighter squadrons to pay the bills.  The last ten years have seen a steady retreat from the TacAir redline, No lower than 2,300 fighters!…Ok No lower than 2,100 fighters!  There was a huge gasp at 2,000, but we sliced right past that number faster than some late night yaki mandu through your system after a Friday night in Aragon Alley.  As we started closing fighter squadrons we suddenly had fewer to fill AEF taskings so the bros and sisters on the end of the whip have to run even faster to make up for the shortage…starting to see the picture now?

When it comes to your "retention tools" again, you don’t get it…what you call having bigger fish to fry than keeping pilots on the right side of the happy meter and using STOP LOSS as a retention tool is the PROOF that the entire thing is a scam.  How can senior leaders profess to care about the force, mission first…people always, and say things like “Morale is pretty darn good” almost in the same breath they admit the Air Force is on the verge of a manpower collapse?  This CSAF has made countless impassioned speeches about caring for people and “every Airman has a story”, but in the end as you admit the people are just numbers and their happiness doesn’t really matter.  I get it that you will never make everyone happy and there will always be sport bitching, but this is something very different.  This is the heart of your ability to be an Air Force, your professional pilot force telling you with their feet…”THINGS ARE Fed UP!”  Only 38% of the pilot force took the bonus last year and the numbers look worse for this year…so I would submit you better make time to fix the happy meter. 

 It is not about hating the messenger, it is about hating the smug asshat that parades around the room showing glee in his pronouncements from on high.  You represent much of what is wrong with the current system.

Very mature, Colonel.  Now that you feel better about yourself, let's discuss facts.  A1 misjudged the effects of the 9-yr bonus.  I acknowledge that.  From the personnel perspective, however, A1 has a specific playbook and specific rules to follow in these scenarios.  The AF is desperately trying to get Congress to approve higher bonuses.  If successful, this will help slightly with officers on-the-fence.  Next, some stop-lossed officers may rebel, but most will do their duty and uphold the core values (all should...we are officers first, as you learned in your schools).   We may have to eliminate some of the extraneous additional duties at flying squadrons or authorize more civilians to help.  So be it.  Finally, a 15- or 20-year ADSC for UPT will have limited effect on the morale of pilots currently in, and the AF will still not have difficulty finding people to sign-up to fly...the novelty of flying never diminishes amongst a population enamored with it.  If AF recovers from the pilot shortage down-the-road, A1 can curtail ADSCs.  That won't be anytime soon, however, as AF will need to send more current pilots permanently into RPAs for the foreseeable future to meet Army demand for orbits.

Pilots- you can help create a positive environment in your squadrons as we move through these difficult times.  Emphasize the positives...flying hour programs are healthy, and pilots moved into the RPA community have the opportunity to establish themselves as leaders in the "community of the future," which can be a huge opportunity to excel.  Also, RPA operators are home more, per the spreadsheets.  Please help your GO leadership, and we will get through this together.  Stay positive.  You will sleep better tonight.

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