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Information on PIT (Pilot Instructor Training)

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Think people just stopped posting stuff, and/or the AF scared the hell outta the younger generation with their "don't cheat" policies and such.

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On 8/26/2017 at 3:02 PM, moabust said:

Affirm, a receipt or a copy of the lease. Based on the experience of multiple dudes in my squadron, if you take your spouse with you DO NOT put their name in the lease, or finance will decide you're only entitled to 50% of your lodging costs 

Anyone have any problems with this recently? I would like to bring my wife but all the apartments require her to be on the lease. 

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I just heard a rumor... I'm hoping  that's all it is... that Kwast is going to kill PIT.  

What/where did this rumor come from?  Is there a story here?

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They''ve been pushing for PIT to be done in house for a long time, they might have actually won.  The idea being pushed around 6-9 months ago was to close PIT, do it all in house, and use Randolph as a UPT location.  Purely rumor so don't take it as truth, but damn that would be a great place to do UPT.

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They''ve been pushing for PIT to be done in house for a long time, they might have actually won.  The idea being pushed around 6-9 months ago was to close PIT, do it all in house, and use Randolph as a UPT location.  Purely rumor so don't take it as truth, but damn that would be a great place to do UPT.

One push has been to send all international to UPT at RND to reduce the workload they cause elsewhere.


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Pushing PIT in house UPT has been an "idea" for years.  I heard it when I first went through PIT in 2012, again while at UPT, and again now.  I won't be holding my breath.   How does shifting IP production from one base to all the UPT bases, help those bases?  They now need more manning / sorties / metal to support the increased sortie requirement to fly their IP upgrades as well as their current UPT students.  Where does that come from unless you actually completely kill PIT.   I'd LOVE to have UPT students here instead of PIT UIs honestly, but I cant find a rational that would provide any kind of timeline efficiency, infact it would be a net loss as far as I can tell.    This is just antsy new commanders getting all uppity with the new word of the day "Innovation" push and instead of innovating they are pulling deep into the dirty ass crack of ideas already tried / failed and polishing a giant turd to get some love.  

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9 minutes ago, DirtyFlightSuit said:

Pushing PIT in house UPT has been an "idea" for years.  I heard it when I first went through PIT in 2012, again while at UPT, and again now.  I won't be holding my breath.   How does shifting IP production from one base to all the UPT bases, help those bases?  They now need more manning / sorties / metal to support the increased sortie requirement to fly their IP upgrades as well as their current UPT students.  Where does that come from unless you actually completely kill PIT.   I'd LOVE to have UPT students here instead of PIT UIs honestly, but I cant find a rational that would provide any kind of timeline efficiency, infact it would be a net loss as far as I can tell.    This is just antsy new commanders getting all uppity with the new word of the day "Innovation" push and instead of innovating they are pulling deep into the dirty ass crack of ideas already tried / failed and polishing a giant turd to get some love.  

It’s the same shell game they play with MWS FTUs and cutting sorties that just end up rolling into MQT at the Ops SQ. 

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12 minutes ago, DirtyFlightSuit said:

Pushing PIT in house UPT has been an "idea" for years.  I heard it when I first went through PIT in 2012, again while at UPT, and again now.  I won't be holding my breath.   How does shifting IP production from one base to all the UPT bases, help those bases?  They now need more manning / sorties / metal to support the increased sortie requirement to fly their IP upgrades as well as their current UPT students.  Where does that come from unless you actually completely kill PIT.   I'd LOVE to have UPT students here instead of PIT UIs honestly, but I cant find a rational that would provide any kind of timeline efficiency, infact it would be a net loss as far as I can tell.    This is just antsy new commanders getting all uppity with the new word of the day "Innovation" push and instead of innovating they are pulling deep into the dirty ass crack of ideas already tried / failed and polishing a giant turd to get some love.  

says the current PIT IP working 6 hour days...

 

 

 

 

KIDDING (not really)

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SPS does PIT in house, so why not the other bases? In fact RND is so backed up with UIPs they had to send 3 non SPS FAIPs to SPS for PIT because the 560th couldn't handle the load (STS). Other bases have already started a short version of in-house PIT. Supposedly, it's only being tested on new FAIPs currently. 

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Dude I would much rather have PIT in house rather than the sham that is the flying club at PIT. Ive literally heard from guys coming back from PIT that some ips won't fly with Wx <030 due to their EFIS concerns. Or that some refuse to double turn due to being worried about obogs.  issues. Meanwhile ips are trip turning at the upt bases and students are going solo on the reg. What a strange disconnect...

 

On top of that I would much rather be able to shape our IP corps from the get go in-house by instilling a culture of excellence and transferable skills in regards to briefing, instructing, and debriefing rather than have them get negatively shaped by the cess pool that is PIT. Plus there's all the time saved of no TDY travel, the faips at least are already familiar with the LAO, and TI can be drastically shortened. 

 

Since the t-6 stand down my squadron has literally had brand new dudes from PIT that have doubled the TI syllabus due to lack of flying proficiency. Things like not being able to consistently land safely, not knowing the switchology of the GPS, and no concept of how to run an instructional brief or debrief. It's inexcusable. 

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7 minutes ago, Laxer69 said:

Since the t-6 stand down my squadron has literally had brand new dudes from PIT that have doubled the TI syllabus due to lack of flying proficiency. Things like not being able to consistently land safely, not knowing the switchology of the GPS, and no concept of how to run an instructional brief or debrief. It's inexcusable. 

No different on the -38 side. Sq Training have been pulling their hair out with hooked TI rides for inability to brief/debrief/fly in general. 

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The Navy does their FITU (PIT equivalent) at the wing level and it's fairly efficient.  A big upside is that there's only 1 PCS.  

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Isn't their upgrade much longer? My understanding was Navy UPT IPs essentially go back to the FITU multiple times, and each instructional phase is another upgrade/letter of x. So basic contact, adv contact, instrument, and formation were all seperate checkouts, which would mean a significant shift in how AF UPT would need to be scheduled since all IPs won't be certed to do everything.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but I heard a rumor that as soon as MIF was attained the UP was advanced through the rest of the phase.  Something something Air Education and TIMELINE Command.

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8 hours ago, Laxer69 said:

Dude I would much rather have PIT in house rather than the sham that is the flying club at PIT. Ive literally heard from guys coming back from PIT that some ips won't fly with Wx <030 due to their EFIS concerns. Or that some refuse to double turn due to being worried about obogs.  issues. Meanwhile ips are trip turning at the upt bases and students are going solo on the reg. What a strange disconnect...

Dang man, who pissed in your cheerios? Nobody here at the 559th that I know of refuses to double turn or has personal wx mins that you describe.  Your buddies are lying if that’s what they are saying.  

Maybe T-6 PIT used to be a place where IPs don’t work especially hard, but that’s not true at all right now.  If you look at our 7/30/90, our guys are flying their asses off.  In fact, due to the dynamic of the squadron (no FAIPs or junior O-3s) our O-4s and O-5s fly a hell lot more at KRND than I saw guys of similar experience level fly when I was a Vance IP.  It’s not uncommon for O-4s and O-5s to double or triple turn every day of the week here.  

8 hours ago, Laxer69 said:

On top of that I would much rather be able to shape our IP corps from the get go in-house by instilling a culture of excellence and transferable skills in regards to briefing, instructing, and debriefing rather than have them get negatively shaped by the cess pool that is PIT. Plus there's all the time saved of no TDY travel, the faips at least are already familiar with the LAO, and TI can be drastically shortened. 

 

Since the t-6 stand down my squadron has literally had brand new dudes from PIT that have doubled the TI syllabus due to lack of flying proficiency. Things like not being able to consistently land safely, not knowing the switchology of the GPS, and no concept of how to run an instructional brief or debrief. It's inexcusabl

My briefs and debrief are 60-90% longer here than when I was at Vance. Teaching UIs is a lot different than teaching Stan, and a lot more difficult.  Personally, I’d much rather be teaching Stan than UIs. It’s easier.  More dangerous, but easier.  I think most guys at the 559th would agree.

PIT is getting guys with less and less experience as the AF bleeds experience.  Unless you make PIT longer, guys are not going to be as good as they would if they had more experience. Believe it or not, leadership above the 559th recently believed that we were “overtraining” UIs and pushed us to PA guys as soon as they got up to MIF.  The guys in the 559th fought hard against that BS and got it overturned.

Look, PIT is different animal than a UPT squadron. Most guys here are on their last AD assignment.  They speak their minds more and leadership gets away with less BS since guys aren’t thinking about their next assignment.  That dynamic actually serves all of T-6 nation. 

Edited by flyusaf83
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I know that’s the case at PIT. Definitely not a thing where I am or I don’t think we would be behind the timeline.


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12 minutes ago, YoungnDumb said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I heard a rumor that as soon as MIF was attained the UP was advanced through the rest of the phase.  Something something Air Education and TIMELINE Command.

That was correct for a brief time, but there was a loud outcry about this in the 559th and that guidance was rescinded. 

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1 hour ago, jazzdude said:

Isn't their upgrade much longer? My understanding was Navy UPT IPs essentially go back to the FITU multiple times, and each instructional phase is another upgrade/letter of x. So basic contact, adv contact, instrument, and formation were all seperate checkouts, which would mean a significant shift in how AF UPT would need to be scheduled since all IPs won't be certed to do everything.

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Well, since it's right there, the squadrons can dictate what they want from their new IPs depending on the squadron's workload.  For instance, a lot of them don't do formation at first.  They might just get them to the squadron first and have them start flying instrument flights if there's a lot of instrument students.  Then, when time allows, send them back through for formation or even do it in-house.

I believe the syllabus is basically the same.  8 flights and then the equivalent of a form 8 checkride.  Then each phase has a certain number of flights and a stage check.  I think it took me about two and a half/three months to go through.  And, I started instructing the day after I was done.  

Edited by ARAMP1

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27 minutes ago, flyusaf83 said:

PIT is getting guys with less and less experience as the AF bleeds experience.  Unless you make PIT longer, guys are not going to be as good as they would if they had more experience. Believe it or not, leadership above the 559th recently believed that we were “overtraining” UIs and pushed us to PA guys as soon as they got up to MIF.  The guys in the 559th fought hard against that BS and got it overturned.

^This. Plus not only this but more Q3s, more PIT IPs with ZERO prior T-6 instruction experience (though some of them actually have been our stronger IPs but for others its a challenge) and to top it all off we have CUT our syllabus by a substantial number. 

 

8 hours ago, Laxer69 said:

Dude I would much rather have PIT in house rather than the sham that is the flying club at PIT. Ive literally heard from guys coming back from PIT that some ips won't fly with Wx <030 due to their EFIS concerns. Or that some refuse to double turn due to being worried about obogs.  issues. Meanwhile ips are trip turning at the upt bases and students are going solo on the reg. What a strange disconnect...

 

On top of that I would much rather be able to shape our IP corps from the get go in-house by instilling a culture of excellence and transferable skills in regards to briefing, instructing, and debriefing rather than have them get negatively shaped by the cess pool that is PIT. Plus there's all the time saved of no TDY travel, the faips at least are already familiar with the LAO, and TI can be drastically shortened. 

 

Since the t-6 stand down my squadron has literally had brand new dudes from PIT that have doubled the TI syllabus due to lack of flying proficiency. Things like not being able to consistently land safely, not knowing the switchology of the GPS, and no concept of how to run an instructional brief or debrief. It's inexcusable. 

As for this tirade of utter crap, Read the above quote for why your getting a shittier product point the blame at big blue for inability to retain any one worth a damn.  As for IPs deciding to limit their risk due to OBOGs / Smoking in the cockpit with some common sense restrictions versus tone deaf UPT bases deciding the meat packing must continue regardless of risk well you just showed your naivety and youthful ignorance there.  I have had both smoke in my cockpit from our EFIS issue as well as OGOGs reduce my cognitive ability in half (Granted half of near zero isn't much).  Just because you special education students (some of you not all I suspect) at the UPT base are willing to take the risk doesn't mean we are dumb enough too.   Since the recent SIB release however alot more confidence has returned into the system and more importantly confidence that the issue has a resolution in sight, I suspect our restrictions will be removed shortly.

 

says the current PIT IP working 6 hour days...

 

 

 

 

KIDDING (not really)

^Don't hate.  Good deal police watch out here!   To be honest for my first couple of years here at PIT I worked just as hard if not harder than at my UPT base.   Now that I am nearing the end I've made the conscious decision to give minimal #$%^ and limit my day to the max extent possible.  

 

Edited by DirtyFlightSuit
Adding 3rd quote for funzies
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Pushing PIT in house UPT has been an "idea" for years.  I heard it when I first went through PIT in 2012, again while at UPT, and again now.  I won't be holding my breath.   How does shifting IP production from one base to all the UPT bases, help those bases?  They now need more manning / sorties / metal to support the increased sortie requirement to fly their IP upgrades as well as their current UPT students.  Where does that come from unless you actually completely kill PIT.   I'd LOVE to have UPT students here instead of PIT UIs honestly, but I cant find a rational that would provide any kind of timeline efficiency, infact it would be a net loss as far as I can tell.    This is just antsy new commanders getting all uppity with the new word of the day "Innovation" push and instead of innovating they are pulling deep into the dirty ass crack of ideas already tried / failed and polishing a giant turd to get some love.  

This is already starting. I know of FAIPs who are going to RND for academics then back to their locations for the flying portion. It will help get rid of the PIT isms we all hate and teach them to fly in the local area (speeding up TI).


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This type of idea is cyclical. I’ve been around long enough to see KC135 AC upgrade training go from FTU to in-unit back to FTU. In-unit upgrade and training is all fun and games until the units can’t afford the training fence so they start squawking back at the FTUs to “do their job.” Before you know it you have AC upgrade (or some form of it) back at the FTU. 

Everyone loves the idea of in-unit training until your 90 day program takes 180 days because there is no training fence, and you’re still working at the Wing, and your wife just had a baby (or is divorcing you...take your pick). Then we all just wish for a while that we could just go TDY for training so we can actually study during the day and rest at night. Going to PIT for me after 15 years of MWS flying was challenging in multiple aspects. And while I didn’t enjoy the month of delay I had at PIT (I would have certainly experienced a similar delay had my training occurred at my gaining UPT base) I was glad for the opportunity to be a bit more isolated from the mundane at home so I could spend the time I needed to spend studying. 

Edited by Homestar
clarity
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2 hours ago, DirtyFlightSuit said:

^This. Plus not only this but more Q3s, more PIT IPs with ZERO prior T-6 instruction experience (though some of them actually have been our stronger IPs but for others its a challenge) and to top it all off we have CUT our syllabus by a substantial number. 

 

As for this tirade of utter crap, Read the above quote for why your getting a shittier product point the blame at big blue for inability to retain any one worth a damn.  As for IPs deciding to limit their risk due to OBOGs / Smoking in the cockpit with some common sense restrictions versus tone deaf UPT bases deciding the meat packing must continue regardless of risk well you just showed your naivety and youthful ignorance there.  I have had both smoke in my cockpit from our EFIS issue as well as OGOGs reduce my cognitive ability in half (Granted half of near zero isn't much).  Just because you special education students (some of you not all I suspect) at the UPT base are willing to take the risk doesn't mean we are dumb enough too.   Since the recent SIB release however alot more confidence has returned into the system and more importantly confidence that the issue has a resolution in sight, I suspect our restrictions will be removed shortly.

 

^Don't hate.  Good deal police watch out here!   To be honest for my first couple of years here at PIT I worked just as hard if not harder than at my UPT base.   Now that I am nearing the end I've made the conscious decision to give minimal #$%^ and limit my day to the max extent possible.  

I fail to see an argument here for why PIT should remain the school house for UPT IP's. You say you're getting a worse product of UIP and PIT IP, I read that as UPT bases already have a corps of young and motivated IP's used to teaching to a brand new student. Would I rather be taught by someone with receny flying with a student  vs a PIT IP whos flown with a student maybe a handful of times in the last year for a re-blue?

 

PIT is loaded with people on their last assignment that dont give a shit, which you admit to. Why would I want people to go through a program where thats the majority of people they interact with? What kind of tone does that set for how business gets done in UPT? I would much rather them go to a UPT base with the young O-3's and faips that actually give a shit to inculcate the new IP's with the pace and attitude of that base. 

 

SPS has proven it can work. Make RND another UPT base and the production problem gets much easier to solve.

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