Promotion and PRF Information

[10percenttruth]

Look, I'll be the last person to defend the system as it stands, but everything you've said is the adult equivalent of the fat kid stealing the kickball, punting it over the fence & screaming "this game is stupid, I didn't want to play anyway!"

[brickhistory]

Look, I'll be the last person to defend the system as it stands, but everything you've said is the adult equivalent of the fat kid stealing the kickball, punting it over the fence & screaming "this game is stupid, I didn't want to play anyway!"

Like promotes like.

[17D_guy]

Trident aka TUI aka Touro (LMAO)....

Started with TUI and then transferred to a real school around my base with a "real" program. A top 15% program in their field if you believe the (legit) literature.

I actually realized well into my first semester at "real school" that the papers and required reading (which I did) at TUI added to my professional knowledge and blah, blah, blah. I was reasonably more prepared than my peers for the entry level courses, and in a few instances the TUI classes were ahead the "real" school.

Plus no group work.

@Mark1 - Thanks for your service. Can you send me instructions on how you got yourself up on that cross solo?

[brickhistory]

@Mark1 - Thanks for your service. Can you send me instructions on how you got yourself up on that cross solo?

The Borg exist and flourish. The system is, therefore the system must work.

[Jughead]

Let me make it clear that I didn't take a defiant stance in an effort to prove something by forcing the system to martyr me. I did my job...and well. Nothing more, nothing less.

What these guys are trying to point out to you--and the point you are evidently missing--is that did not do your job well, at least in this one area. Like it or not, think it's stupid or not, hate the correspondence-as-prerequisite for residence, etc... PME is a job requirement and one that is rather well-spelled out by your former employer.

Just for reference, IMHO: PME is a good thing (but the implementation is terrible); correspondence-as-prerequisite is just plain dumb; AAD requirement is full retard.

Work to change the system, and you'll have my full respect and support. Make a personal choice not to accomplish a job requirement (that is not mandatory for current job but required for promotion, even if only in a de facto sense), and I still respect & support that choice & your right to make it--so long as you're willing to own the consequences of that choice. In the sense that you apparently are happy & successful in your post-AF life and don't regret how you got there, good on you for owning it; in the sense that you're whining here about how screwed the system is and how you "did your job... and well," that's where you've lost me....

EDIT: grammar/spelling

Edited June 14, 2013 by Jughead

[Guest ThatGuy]

Started with TUI and then transferred to a real school around my base with a "real" program. A top 15% program in their field if you believe the (legit) literature.

I actually realized well into my first semester at "real school" that the papers and required reading (which I did) at TUI added to my professional knowledge and blah, blah, blah. I was reasonably more prepared than my peers for the entry level courses, and in a few instances the TUI classes were ahead the "real" school.

Plus no group work.

@Mark1 - Thanks for your service. Can you send me instructions on how you got yourself up on that cross solo?

Love the fact there is no group work at Trident. Speaking of group work I got paired with the only female in my class at SOS. I don't know who gave her an MBA but WTF, she couldn't write a sentence with proper grammar to save her life. At first I was all about helping then I realized she is a 5 with an attitude of a 10. That just does not go well together. And she thought I should type while she just sits there "trying to look cute." Maybe she could write a hell of an OPR or EPR because those do not require actual sentences. But some how, some way, she has made it to Capt and will probably make major. And she could take down a tall bottle of vodka by herself. Those are the attributes of a winner but I think she will catch a DUI before she gets to her board. She came to my door leaning to one side after driving herself back to the base from a friends house. She was clearly tipsy.

Edited June 14, 2013 by slick999

[17D_guy]

Love the fact there is no group work at Trident. Speaking of group work I got paired with the only female in my class at SOS. I don't know who gave her an MBA but WTF, she couldn't write a sentence with proper grammar to save her life. At first I was all about helping then I realized she is a 5 with an attitude of a 10. That just does not go well together. And she thought I should type while she just sits there "trying to look cute." Maybe she could write a hell of an OPR or EPR because those do not require actual sentences. But some how, some way, she has made it to Capt and will probably make major. And she could take down a tall bottle of vodka by herself. Those are the attributes of a winner but I think she will catch a DUI before she gets to her board. She came to my door leaning to one side after driving herself back to the base from a friends house. She was clearly tipsy.

Last class I grouped with mostly American students instead of a bunch of internationals (Chinese, Indian, Korean, etc). This was in an attempt to dodge some of the language problems I'd had last class a 20+ page report was due.

Last time I'll ever do that. About the same attitude minus looking cute, inability to plan course work over a 4-month semester, etc. The foreign kids (minus the Saudi's) work hard and plan better.

Just signed up for SOS via correspondence. Not sure if that makes me part of the problem according to some on here. Boss says do it, peers who aren't dweebs say do it, so I'll moo-cow and follow the herd.

But the process to enroll is... only something a military person contracting out work via a civilian could come up with.

EDIT - Wonder if the SNCO's bitch about their correspondence PME (course-14?) as much as some on here. Last I remember, you WILL NOT get promoted if you don't do that correspondence. These days not having a CCAF is also a barrier to entry to the top 3%/1%. Please note this is about bitching in comparison only; I've been out of Big Blue and in a Joint environment for years now. My data may be old.

Edited June 14, 2013 by 17D_guy

[BitteEinBit]

.. got paired with the only female in my class at SOS.... realized she is a 5 with an attitude of a 10.

....that answers my first question

She came to my door leaning to one side after driving herself back to the base from a friends house. She was clearly tipsy.

She probably came over for tea and crumpets like a lot of drunk victims do....good thing you didn't have any or we might be reading about you in the Air Force Times.....

...am I being insensitive??

[Guest ThatGuy]

...am I being insensitive??

LMAO..you must be a fortune teller. Yes, you are being insensitive. Go to ALDS and open up your Insensitivity Training CBT.

[Lord Ratner]

Just game the system, put in min effort, skirt the intent of the program, make sure to get nothing from it, return mediocre .... words words words

I can't believe I have to defend SOS, considering how much I disliked doing it in-corr, but you know there's actually no requirement that you skip the readings, get the gouge, and min-run the tests, right? You're kinda attempting to discredit the entire field of philosophy by arguing there's nothing to be had from the readings, since most of them were simple leadership philosophy readings...

I was in the shop late into the night, words words

So what is your argument to the countless bros who spend hours upon hours working "in the shop late into the nights" and still do the PME and AAD? They should have been putting that time into the shop too? If you are working 20 hour days every day in the AF, you're doing it wrong. Period. And I don't mean you're putting too much of your life into the AF, I mean you're using your own catastrophically bad time management to blame the system.

I'm not suggesting that everybody approaches things that way, but you know damn well that that is SOP for MOST guys that jump through the hoops.

You may be a naturally gifted leader. I don't know, since I don't know you (I think). But most people in the AF, myself included, fall into the range of "some leadership abilities, with room to improve." Does anyone here know of a Flag Officer who hasn't read a shelf full of books by past military figures on command and leadership? Not just the tools, either, but the generals people on this board have hailed as saviors of the AF way; I'd bet the overwhelming majority of them have read leadership philosophy voraciously.

They can't force you to read it, and they can't stop us from making and distributing gouge. I'm about as stubborn and convinced of my own strengths as they come (as some of the people here who know me can attest), but when one of those stupid readings corners me in a dark alley and forces it's knowledge down my throat (sts?), I generally walk away a wiser person, and occasionally one causes me to rethink my limited-experience philosophy on leading.

SOS in correspondence as a gateway to SOS in residence is stupid. Making us do anything once to prove we are worthy of doing it again is stupid. Turning AADs into a check box instead of a tool for enriching the officer (and enlisted) force is stupid.

But knowledge is not stupid, and the people who have the influence to fix this system (Liquid, perhaps? Other generals who would never admit in public they lurk this site) are going to stop listening to you the instant your argument smells like "knowledge is stupid" or "you can't learn anything outside of first-hand, combat experience." Especially when you consider how important every general with a reading list considers it.

[Mark1]

I can't believe I have to defend SOS, considering how much I disliked doing it in-corr, but you know there's actually no requirement that you skip the readings, get the gouge, and min-run the tests, right? You're kinda attempting to discredit the entire field of philosophy by arguing there's nothing to be had from the readings, since most of them were simple leadership philosophy readings...

Yes, I'm aware. My point being that the system REWARDS that behavior en mass. Behavior that can't be defended if you want your officer core to be the selfless defenders of good and righteous, as the AF purports to want. And sure, you could put your whole hearted effort into SOS by correspondence. And in that case, you're wasting your time jumping through a hoop to prove your worthiness to go do it AGAIN in residence. That cannot be logically justified. And I'd think that the AF wouldn't want it's core group of 'thinkers' doing things just because. In fact, I could point out multiple occasions where the SOS texts themselves make that very point. Don't follow the herd, don't be a sheep, etc. I mean, how ######ing crazy is that thought right there?

So what is your argument to the countless bros who spend hours upon hours working "in the shop late into the nights" and still do the PME and AAD? They should have been putting that time into the shop too? If you are working 20 hour days every day in the AF, you're doing it wrong. Period. And I don't mean you're putting too much of your life into the AF, I mean you're using your own catastrophically bad time management to blame the system.

I wasn't trying to make any point whatsoever with the comment. It was a reference to an earlier post. I wasn't working 20hrs a day every day, and I wasn't complaining that I worked too hard to get PME done. If I had decided to do PME by correspondence, it could have been the same 10min cram session before 3 tests for a total investment of 30min of my life that most everybody else took to get it done. As I said, effort required was never the issue.

SOS in correspondence as a gateway to SOS in residence is stupid. Making us do anything once to prove we are worthy of doing it again is stupid. Turning AADs into a check box instead of a tool for enriching the officer (and enlisted) force is stupid.

But knowledge is not stupid, and the people who have the influence to fix this system (Liquid, perhaps? Other generals who would never admit in public they lurk this site) are going to stop listening to you the instant your argument smells like "knowledge is stupid" or "you can't learn anything outside of first-hand, combat experience." Especially when you consider how important every general with a reading list considers it.

So we agree wholeheartedly, good.

Nowhere did I say knowledge was stupid, so I don't know why anybody would think it smelled like that. I believe I said the exact opposite. In fact, I said I was more than willing, not even just willing, but actually desired to go get an in-res degree at a legitimate institution. The AF just needs a program to facilitate that. One was tested in the Army not too long ago but I don't know what the outcome of it was (and it included educational incentives and continuing pay, which I wouldn't have needed/wanted if given the time off to get it done).

What is stupid is a program that everybody and their mother knows isn't actually designed to impart knowledge or growth onto the AF's officers. If they get a little growth or education as a side-effect, great, but we all know that that isn't the aim of the system. It aims to do nothing more than force AF officers to put their flag up saying 'yes, I wan't to promote through the system (evidenced by my willingness to waste my time to jump through these hoops), so invest your time in me and consider me for promotion'. There's a better way to identify those that want to continue on to FGO+ than to force them to waste their time. How about a program that would both identify those that wanted to promote and make them a more well rounded officer? Is that a crazy idea?

[Lord Ratner]

Yes, I'm aware. My point being that the system REWARDS that behavior en mass. Behavior that can't be defended if you want your officer core to be the selfless defenders of good and righteous, as the AF purports to want. And sure, you could put your whole hearted effort into SOS by correspondence. And in that case, you're wasting your time jumping through a hoop to prove your worthiness to go do it AGAIN in residence. That cannot be logically justified. And I'd think that the AF wouldn't want it's core group of 'thinkers' doing things just because. In fact, I could point out multiple occasions where the SOS texts themselves make that very point. Don't follow the herd, don't be a sheep, etc. I mean, how ######ing crazy is that thought right there?

I wasn't trying to make any point whatsoever with the comment. It was a reference to an earlier post. I wasn't working 20hrs a day every day, and I wasn't complaining that I worked too hard to get PME done. If I had decided to do PME by correspondence, it could have been the same 10min cram session before 3 tests for a total investment of 30min of my life that most everybody else took to get it done. As I said, effort required was never the issue.

So we agree wholeheartedly, good.

Nowhere did I say knowledge was stupid, so I don't know why anybody would think it smelled like that. I believe I said the exact opposite. In fact, I said I was more than willing, not even just willing, but actually desired to go get an in-res degree at a legitimate institution. The AF just needs a program to facilitate that. One was tested in the Army not too long ago but I don't know what the outcome of it was (and it included educational incentives and continuing pay, which I wouldn't have needed/wanted if given the time off to get it done).

What is stupid is a program that everybody and their mother knows isn't actually designed to impart knowledge or growth onto the AF's officers. If they get a little growth or education as a side-effect, great, but we all know that that isn't the aim of the system. It aims to do nothing more than force AF officers to put their flag up saying 'yes, I wan't to promote through the system (evidenced by my willingness to waste my time to jump through these hoops), so invest your time in me and consider me for promotion'. There's a better way to identify those that want to continue on to FGO+ than to force them to waste their time. How about a program that would both identify those that wanted to promote and make them a more well rounded officer? Is that a crazy idea?

Ok, well I agree with almost everything you're saying. Two points where I differ:

1. SOS is-corr is not useless. The way it is used is insulting, sure, but the readings, which as you pointed out, are critical of the ways we do some things, can be of great value to certain your officers. I don't think it is a waste of time to learn some of those things, however I agree that doing it only to qualify for doing it in a longer version in Alabama is silly. If they want us to read those things before we go to SOS, and SOS is going to be 100% attendance in-res anyways, call SOS in-corr ASBC in-corr instead, and make it a requirement for pinning on O-3. But I know the outcry may be even worse for that plan.

2. Yes, philosophically I agree that getting a check-the-box degree from anyone, anywhere, about anything that may have NOTHING to do with my job as a pilot or as an officer is an insult, and I have been plenty vocal about that. If you want to call me an educated leader, then actually take the time to educate me. But don't make me look like a stooge by pushing me to get a basket weaving degree from the Boy Scouts community online learning center, and then call me the future of the nation because of my impressive credentials. I agree.

HOWEVER. The AF pays me good money. Real good. Sure, we have to do things that more than justify that paycheck, but that doesn't make it any less of a good paycheck. I love my job, and I would gladly do it for less money. But they don't pay me less money, they pay me good money. So if they want me to get a degree in advanced VCR repair from Bob's-Traveling-Combination-University-and-Kabob-Van.com, fine. It's their money. You want me to read a few hundred pages about being a leader over the course of 6 months to a year before you send me to read the same crap in a group for 2 months? Fine, it's their money. Can't wear colored shirts under the flight suit anymore on Fridays? Okie Dokie. No more Fun-Meter patches on my pen-pocket sleeve Velcro? Done.

It's not a volunteer force. When's the last time you volunteered at a soup kitchen or bake sale (most likely for OPR bullets) and they gave you a check at the end of the day? It's a job. And the expectations were public when you agreed to take the job. AAD's have been a source of bitching since Vietnam. But as a bonus, you aren't even required to get them, or go to SOS online. If it insults your very existence, as it clearly has yours, don't do it.

But don't get self-righteous when you didn't check the clearly labeled boxes, aren't promoted, and then your employer decides they are done paying you for your services. And enjoy the free flight training, on the house.

Airline pilots are told what they have to wear. Bankers are told what "conventions" they have to attend and what classes they need to enroll in. Marketing directors are paid more if they have advanced degrees, even if they are stupid. I'm all for making the system better, but I'm not going to harm my own interests to illustrate a point. I like being a pilot, and flying different airplanes in different parts of the world. AADs and CBTs suck, but so did living in a shoebox in Bagram. At the end of the day, they pay me $206 per month to fly airplanes, and the rest covers the queep.

Sorry for the excessive text.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Lord Ratner

[PSYCH]

What @Stick said.

Kill me- seriously. Are we tweeting here?

[epsilon]

Ok, well I agree with almost everything you're saying. Two points where I differ:

1. SOS is-corr is not useless. The way it is used is insulting, sure, but the readings, which as you pointed out, are critical of the ways we do some things, can be of great value to certain your officers. I don't think it is a waste of time to learn some of those things, however I agree that doing it only to qualify for doing it in a longer version in Alabama is silly. If they want us to read those things before we go to SOS, and SOS is going to be 100% attendance in-res anyways, call SOS in-corr ASBC in-corr instead, and make it a requirement for pinning on O-3. But I know the outcry may be even worse for that plan.

2. Yes, philosophically I agree that getting a check-the-box degree from anyone, anywhere, about anything that may have NOTHING to do with my job as a pilot or as an officer is an insult, and I have been plenty vocal about that. If you want to call me an educated leader, then actually take the time to educate me. But don't make me look like a stooge by pushing me to get a basket weaving degree from the Boy Scouts community online learning center, and then call me the future of the nation because of my impressive credentials. I agree.

HOWEVER. The AF pays me good money. Real good. Sure, we have to do things that more than justify that paycheck, but that doesn't make it any less of a good paycheck. I love my job, and I would gladly do it for less money. But they don't pay me less money, they pay me good money. So if they want me to get a degree in advanced VCR repair from Bob's-Traveling-Combination-University-and-Kabob-Van.com, fine. It's their money. You want me to read a few hundred pages about being a leader over the course of 6 months to a year before you send me to read the same crap in a group for 2 months? Fine, it's their money. Can't wear colored shirts under the flight suit anymore on Fridays? Okie Dokie. No more Fun-Meter patches on my pen-pocket sleeve Velcro? Done.

It's not a volunteer force. When's the last time you volunteered at a soup kitchen or bake sale (most likely for OPR bullets) and they gave you a check at the end of the day? It's a job. And the expectations were public when you agreed to take the job. AAD's have been a source of bitching since Vietnam. But as a bonus, you aren't even required to get them, or go to SOS online. If it insults your very existence, as it clearly has yours, don't do it.

But don't get self-righteous when you didn't check the clearly labeled boxes, aren't promoted, and then your employer decides they are done paying you for your services. And enjoy the free flight training, on the house.

Airline pilots are told what they have to wear. Bankers are told what "conventions" they have to attend and what classes they need to enroll in. Marketing directors are paid more if they have advanced degrees, even if they are stupid. I'm all for making the system better, but I'm not going to harm my own interests to illustrate a point. I like being a pilot, and flying different airplanes in different parts of the world. AADs and CBTs suck, but so did living in a shoebox in Bagram. At the end of the day, they pay me $206 per month to fly airplanes, and the rest covers the queep.

Sorry for the excessive text.

Dude I don't know how long you've been in but you sound like you know a lot. The "clearly labeled boxes" you speak of have not been always so clearly labeled.

I was at Aviano when Jumper was CSAF and he came down to the squadron to give a pep speech to the pilots. When asked about AADs he said "If the AF wants you to get a Master's we will send you....and I want my Capts and LTs to be tactical zealots and focus on that." Oh, and at the time AADs were masked. So, no the containers haven't always been clear. I found myself scrambling in 08-09 to knock out an AAD all the while serving in the most demanding squadron/leadership position I have had so far on AD.

So, no the containers are only clear as of recent, and they will change again. You are wrong dude.

Peace

[10percenttruth]

So... Back then, The chief said no AADs, and AADs were masked.

Now AADs are unmasked & the chief has said get one.

How is that unclear? I didn't have to read chicken bones on a fire to figure that out.

[epsilon]

So... Back then, The chief said no AADs, and AADs were masked.

Now AADs are unmasked & the chief has said get one.

How is that unclear? I didn't have to read chicken bones on a fire to figure that out.

Until next quarter when they are masked again.....and guys realize they spent a significant amount of cash, time, etc on a often worthless degree. I am AAD complete but hope for the sake of morale and spirit of the masses that we turn this lunacy off.

Edited June 15, 2013 by epsilon

[Lord Ratner]

Until next quarter when they are masked again.....and guys realize they spent a significant amount of cash, time, etc on a often worthless degree. I am AAD complete but hope for the sake of morale and spirit of the masses that we turn this lunacy off.

I agree it needs to end, but the Air Force does offer a free Masters degree.

[10percenttruth]

Until next quarter when they are masked again.....and guys realize they spent a significant amount of cash, time, etc on a often worthless degree. I am AAD complete but hope for the sake of morale and spirit of the masses that we turn this lunacy off.

The Air Force most definitely has the emPHASis on the wrong sylLABle WRT masters degrees. However, it's a requirement & that's on mama blue. That being said, it's completely within your power as to whether that degree is worthless or not. You can't piss and moan about being required to get an AAD, get the most worthless trash diploma from TUI, then bitch about having a useless degree. The Air Force didn't make anyone waste their time on bullshit, those that chose to, wasted their own time & money then whine about it. Just like PME; I agree it needs a major revamp, but arguing that it's a worthless integrity violation to go it just because others min run the system is assuming you will do the same. That shit is all on you. No one makes you waste your time but you. (In this instance. I know at least 69 other ways the AF makes us waste our time) ::cough cough POWERPOINT cough cough::

Edited June 15, 2013 by 10percenttruth

[Cell Dweller]

So, I know we have been focusing on the Board, but in reality what seems to be going on it that the CSAF wants the decision power to fall more heavily on the senior raters. If you mask the AAD, then it is up to the senior rater to decide if the AAD is a deciding factor. The side effect of this is that, for example if a senior rater has a 75% DP quota, and all his/her eligibles are SOS complete, but only 50% are AAD complete, then they may choose to bucket them into 'definite DPs' and 'potential DPs'. Then the rater only has to dig into half as many records to decide who get the remaining DPs, and who does not. The senior rater gets a heck of a lot more leeway, and can take a heck of a lot more time to review fewer records than a board member, so ultimately they provide a more 'knowledgeable' assessment of the ratee. This assumes that the senior rater cares about the square-filling activities, but ultimately, if a senior rater sees that 95% of his/her people have AADs done, then they may think it is have to assume that that other 5% don't 'care' enough about getting promoted, so unless that are Sierra Hotel in some other way, then they will probably not get a DP.

[AnimalMother]

You mean he's attempting to empower his leaders at lower levels to actually exercise their authority? That goes against the fundamental tenant of air power: centralized control/centralized execution. Blasphemy.

[Guest ThatGuy]

Go see the movie Man of Steel. Pay attention to the Air Force full bird in the movie. I can guarantee you he went to SOS in residence and he has a few master degrees, if not one from Trident. Just watch the movie then let the comments begin. Don't ruin it for others please.

[10percenttruth]

Haven't seen it, but let me venture a guess: Col X refuses to strat Supes because he's only 1 of 2 in his peer group & the other is a flag officer. Cant strat him or give him the quarterly award because it would hurt Zod's career. Also, he didn't do his PME & wears an unauthorized uniform combo?

[pawnman]

The Air Force most definitely has the emPHASis on the wrong sylLABle WRT masters degrees. However, it's a requirement & that's on mama blue. That being said, it's completely within your power as to whether that degree is worthless or not. You can't piss and moan about being required to get an AAD, get the most worthless trash diploma from TUI, then bitch about having a useless degree. The Air Force didn't make anyone waste their time on bullshit, those that chose to, wasted their own time & money then whine about it. Just like PME; I agree it needs a major revamp, but arguing that it's a worthless integrity violation to go it just because others min run the system is assuming you will do the same. That shit is all on you. No one makes you waste your time but you. (In this instance. I know at least 69 other ways the AF makes us waste our time) ::cough cough POWERPOINT cough cough::

So where does a flyer find time to do a worthwhile master's degree between multiple TDYs, deployments, ORE/ORIs, and last-minute schedule changes?

I agree it needs to end, but the Air Force does offer a free Masters degree.

Once you are a major select. Lord help you if you're one of the 25% who doesn't have an AAD and gets passed over.

[ThreeHoler]

Once you are a major select. Lord help you if you're one of the 25% who doesn't have an AAD and gets passed over.

Bullshit. Requirements are Captain with 6 years of service and SOS complete via either method.

[BuddhaSixFour]

So where does a flyer find time to do a worthwhile master's degree between multiple TDYs, deployments, ORE/ORIs, and last-minute schedule changes?

It's all about trade-offs. If its worth it to someone, they can do it. I've seen it plenty of times ranging from Aero to Applied Mathematics and Computer Science from good schools.

Between crew rest, whatever weekends you get, CTO, post-mission crew rest, that 30 days of leave you get a year, and the occasional ETIC, you can get a a hell of a lot done. It might be a giant pain in the ass and a whole lot less time drinking, but anyone who says it can't be done is flat out lying or lacks time management skills. However, the #1 thing I can say if someone is really worried about it is to put off popping out the kiddies for a few years. You'll love them just as much when you're 30 and when you're 26. Kids change everything, but they are a choice in and of themselves.

If its not worth it to you, great. That's your choice and its valid. Either pass on the AAD or get your diploma-mill degree. But it is a choice.

Its perfectly possible to get a good AAD, you just have to accept the trade offs.