Initial Pilot Training and Future Pilot Training

[Arkbird]

3 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

Never flew the T-6 but is it forgiving enough that it could be used for an initio pilot training?  No Cessna or Diamond training first but straight to a turboprop?

Not with how short the syllabus is now for the T-6. With the new UPT program, they seem to be getting ~45 hours in the T-6. It's a great and pretty forgiving trainer but everything comes at you quick if you're not prepared.

Edited Wednesday at 05:15 PM by Arkbird

[Clark Griswold]

2 hours ago, Arkbird said:

Not with how short the syllabus is now for the T-6. With the new UPT program, they seem to be getting ~45 hours in the T-6. It's a great and pretty forgiving trainer but everything comes at you quick if you're not prepared.

Gotcha, yeah I thought it would be a bit much for your first rodeo.

 

[Clark Griswold]

More on their new trainer, carrier focused with potential for light fighter

https://defence-blog.com/chinas-new-combat-jet-spotted-in-test-flight/#
 

 

[Lord Ratner]

On 10/29/2025 at 8:53 AM, Clark Griswold said:

Never flew the T-6 but is it forgiving enough that it could be used for an initio pilot training?  No Cessna or Diamond training first but straight to a turboprop?

 

Yeah, absolutely. I did the IFT replacement at the Air Force academy when they had gotten rid of IFT (or whatever the program was pre-2006). It was like half of a PPL course, taught by civilians, and had basically no standards. I learned practically nothing. Then it was over 2 years before I started upt, so I had long since brain dumped everything from that course. 

 

The T-6 is perfectly suitable to be the first airplane and Air Force pilot touches.

 

Edit: agreed with the above however, 45 hours would be wholly insufficient. 100 hours is probably The Sweet spot before going to an intermediate or advanced trainer. 

 

If we're going to transition back to everybody flies the T-38 (replacement) then we probably need more like 150 hours in something like the T-6. At least back when I was a FAIP, The limited t38 slots meant that only your best students were going to it, so you could get away with much less training. 

Edited 19 hours ago by Lord Ratner

[brabus]

Question for UPT grads from early 90s and before…

Along the lines of Lord Ratner’s post, wasn’t one of the reasons for historically much higher washout rates back in the previous century the fact everyone flew 38s, which meant guys washed out for sucking at 4 ship form, etc. - things that were largely irrelevant to heavies, meaning these washouts probably would have been fine to graduate had they fast forwarded to SUPT with a tracked system (flew T-1s).

If I’m not off base, then hopefully that is considered when designing a single-airframe UPT program. More hours in primary trainer, maybe track guys in the first third of advanced trainer (e.g. everyone flies the same aircraft, but the syllabus becomes different for fighters vs. heavy track), etc.

[DirkDiggler]

59 minutes ago, brabus said:

Question for UPT grads from early 90s and before…

Along the lines of Lord Ratner’s post, wasn’t one of the reasons for historically much higher washout rates back in the previous century the fact everyone flew 38s, which meant guys washed out for sucking at 4 ship form, etc. - things that were largely irrelevant to heavies, meaning these washouts probably would have been fine to graduate had they fast forwarded to SUPT with a tracked system (flew T-1s).

If I’m not off base, then hopefully that is considered when designing a single-airframe UPT program. More hours in primary trainer, maybe track guys in the first third of advanced trainer (e.g. everyone flies the same aircraft, but the syllabus becomes different for fighters vs. heavy track), etc.

I'd have to look at the slides again but I'm pretty sure eventually when UPT goes to a single aircraft model (T-7) there's different syllabi after track select depending on which type you track ie Heavy guys wouldn't be flying events like 4 ship form.  IIRC after track select Heavy students basically go direct to the FTU.  

Edit to add: if you have a .mil email PM me and I can send you the placemat slide explaining the current plan.

Edited 17 hours ago by DirkDiggler
afterthought

[raimius]

3 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

 

Edit: agreed with the above however, 45 hours would be wholly insufficient. 100 hours is probably The Sweet spot before going to an intermediate or advanced trainer. 

This is UPT currently, except there is no advanced trainer for the majority of students...they go straight to FTU.

It's half of a successful plan.

[Clark Griswold]

Yeah, absolutely. I did the IFT replacement at the Air Force academy when they had gotten rid of IFT (or whatever the program was pre-2006). It was like half of a PPL course, taught by civilians, and had basically no standards. I learned practically nothing. Then it was over 2 years before I started upt, so I had long since brain dumped everything from that course. 
 
The T-6 is perfectly suitable to be the first airplane and Air Force pilot touches.
 
Edit: agreed with the above however, 45 hours would be wholly insufficient. 100 hours is probably The Sweet spot before going to an intermediate or advanced trainer. 
 
If we're going to transition back to everybody flies the T-38 (replacement) then we probably need more like 150 hours in something like the T-6. At least back when I was a FAIP, The limited t38 slots meant that only your best students were going to it, so you could get away with much less training. 

Alright that’s another data point

Score 1 to 1 for yes/no to whether it could be your first training aircraft
If the syllabus was nice and fat (100+ hours / 80+ rides) with good sim and FTD time prior to flight line I suspect you’re right, with judicious expectations in the first few rides

I’m still for a screening / elementary program, basically a mil instructed PPL with introductory instrument work but if it was a choice between that and a straight to a 100+ hour T-6 syllabus if king for a day I’d get more T-6 hours for UPT

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lord Ratner]

9 hours ago, brabus said:

(e.g. everyone flies the same aircraft, but the syllabus becomes different for fighters vs. heavy track), etc.

That's what makes the most sense to me. We need a higher standard than what the T-1 offered, but we don't need refueling pilots (like I was) proficient in 4ship. Dump that stuff into IFF. 

 

I was a KC-135 instructor for a bit and the irony of that plane was that it was probably the second hardest plane in the AF to fly (stick and rudder, not mission execution obviously), yet it got mostly bottom-half UPT graduates because it was old and had bad CONUS bases. And it flies a lot of formation. Not fingertip at 90° of bank, but the same principals made you a good platform for the receivers.

 

A student with solid formation work and more high-speed non-autopilot flying would absolutely benefit even the most herbivorific planes. And the weak swimmers can't hide behind their flying partner like they could in the T-1.

[lilyelliott4]

On 1/20/2025 at 10:12 AM, raimius said:

Many and many.

60-70% are FAIPs who barely get any planned CT, and see most of the Stans they hooked come back from the 88/89/CR process.

And yeah, grade inflation is certainly a thing...and even worse now that it's T-6 direct to FTU.  No more phase 3 to help train most new LTs.  

 

The only potential upside for quality with these ideas is that the Lts will have some more hours when they graduate.  Most are graduating now with ~120-130hrs, when my group had 200-220.  I'm not a better student than the kids now, but I got more training...

That’s a really thoughtful perspective — and I totally see where you’re coming from. The shift in training hours and structure definitely impacts overall preparedness, especially when phase 3 time isn’t there to reinforce fundamentals. It sounds like experience levels are narrowing faster now, which can make the learning curve at FTU a lot steeper.

It’s interesting you mentioned the FAIPs too — that balance between getting them the right exposure while still maintaining training depth for new LTs seems tricky. Hopefully, with the added hours at graduation, some of that gap can be bridged, but it’s hard to replace real reps and mentorship time.

By the way, for anyone interested in thoughtful takes on training, learning progress, and milestones, I’ve shared a few reflections on my site as well — different field, but similar themes around growth and readiness.