Initial Pilot Training and Future Pilot Training

[Swizzle]

5 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

CPs in MC-130s are PM only for assaults and always have been until AC upgrade or AC prep.  That model hasn’t been an issue for the community.

  The bigger issue is the lack of an actual Phase 3 trainer (T-1 sim only or T-6 only students).  The AF is really fucking these guys and girls over.  I’ve had several students over the last 6 months that seriously struggled to land the aircraft (in the sim) normally on a 13,000x150ft wide runway in day VFR conditions.  A lot of these students are behind in overall SA, comms, basic aircraft handling, and GK.

MC-J vol 2, 5.4 Qualification, para. 5.4.1 "First Pilots (FP) should accomplish a maximum effort take-off and landing in order to maintain this qualification."

Must suck to not "should" and learn for ~2 years or more...

[arg]

I can’t remember what the S in AFSOC is for

[DirkDiggler]

2 hours ago, Swizzle said:

MC-J vol 2, 5.4 Qualification, para. 5.4.1 "First Pilots (FP) should accomplish a maximum effort take-off and landing in order to maintain this qualification."

Must suck to not "should" and learn for ~2 years or more...

11-2MC-130J Vol 3 6.5.5.2: MC and FPs will not perform takeoffs or landings from the right seat under the following conditions:

6.5.5.2: During maximum effort or substandard airfield operations.

FPs (MCs really since the MC-130 doesn’t really do traditional FP) finish the sim phase and don’t sit left seat again until AC upgrade or AC prep (current AC upgrade min hours is 600) therefore there’s little to no benefit to qual them in max efforts.  I have not seen this be an issue during my time in the community, to include 2 schoolhouse tours and now current FTU CI.

Edit to add:  It's not that I haven't seen AC upgrade studs struggle with MEs; I have.  It's just that by the end of the AC upgrade syllabus the average student gets it.  Additionally, all the information in the MC-J HUD takes some of the art out of ME landings (power pull aside).

  I've seen far more ACUGs struggle with getting on/staying on the tanker, acting as the formation commander, and running a crew.

Edited Wednesday at 09:36 PM by DirkDiggler
afterthought

[Swizzle]

Maybe for this reason/policy, now rescinded

5.3.3. REMOVED. 5.3.3. SQ/CC may waive 30 percent of the total and PAA flying hours required for upgrade to aircraft commander...

This change of policy must've been for some [welcome] reason!? And I'm not saying that max efforts are a problem in that community, but it is a risk and training opportunity missed b/c of no FP max effort quals when it seems training and qualifications are priorities, but its also "additional" training (qual and beans) with inherent risk requiring flt hours. Its all about in-seat experience on both counts. 

[Clark Griswold]

7 hours ago, Pooter said:

Why do that when you can just crucify the inexperienced crews when they inevitably put more jets in the ground

Somewhere at AETC…

 

 

[LookieRookie]

1 hour ago, Clark Griswold said:

Somewhere at AETC…

 

 

Well Leard is wondering why T-6s have specific go around procedures or why SPs get graded on it, because he didn’t do it that way in the C-17.
 

He wants “military pilots,” not “T-6 pilots.” He has never done ab initio/undergraduate training so he’s out of his element Donnie.

[yzl337]

4 hours ago, Swizzle said:

Maybe for this reason/policy, now rescinded

5.3.3. REMOVED. 5.3.3. SQ/CC may waive 30 percent of the total and PAA flying hours required for upgrade to aircraft commander...

This change of policy must've been for some [welcome] reason!? And I'm not saying that max efforts are a problem in that community, but it is a risk and training opportunity missed b/c of no FP max effort quals when it seems training and qualifications are priorities, but its also "additional" training (qual and beans) with inherent risk requiring flt hours. Its all about in-seat experience on both counts. 

it was a holdover from when the requirement was significantly higher. It also allowed units to waive hours to less than the previous requirement, which was deemed insufficient given the UPT cuts combined with FTU course reductions pushed to the squadrons. 

[Clark Griswold]

19 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

Well Leard is wondering why T-6s have specific go around procedures or why SPs get graded on it, because he didn’t do it that way in the C-17.
 

He wants “military pilots,” not “T-6 pilots.” He has never done ab initio/undergraduate training so he’s out of his element Donnie.

I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt but the only way you get to that level, skill, awareness I think he is implying is by training and flying a lot and in several different types aircraft with good instructors, good equipment first in well crafted basic training situations then progressing to challenging, non-rote situations… 

Rinse lather repeat or Fly train fly… this is how it’s supposed to be #choirpreaching

 

[LookieRookie]

On 8/7/2025 at 4:56 PM, Clark Griswold said:

I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt but the only way you get to that level, skill, awareness I think he is implying is by training and flying a lot and in several different types aircraft with good instructors, good equipment first in well crafted basic training situations then progressing to challenging, non-rote situations… 

Rinse lather repeat or Fly train fly… this is how it’s supposed to be #choirpreaching

 

That’s not what he’s implying. He also lead the charge to get rid of the instrument approach (waiver) out of the T-6 fundamental checkride because SPs already learned to fly instruments at IPT.

He’s removing items that provide data that doesn’t support his “SGTO”

[Clark Griswold]

2 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

That’s not what he’s implying. He also lead the charge to get rid of the instrument approach (waiver) out of the T-6 fundamental checkride because SPs already learned to fly instruments at IPT.

He’s removing items that provide data that doesn’t support his “SGTO”

Well there goes that bit of hope there was a shred of self awareness and honesty in AETC leadership…

Reminds me of the Army general in The Pentagon Wars, before he was in charge of the Bradley, he was in charge of an IR missile so shitty he covered the target in electric frying pans to get a hit during testing.

Is there any insurgent pushback against this?