T-38 track rates

[flyguyinthesky]

Hola,

I've heard some talk about abysmal T-38 track rates at UPT recently (sometimes none at all), can anyone confirm? I'm currently in limbo trying to decide between an active duty slot (if I get one) or go all in on a guard fighter squadron that is my dream unit. I'm only really interested in fighters, which obviously makes UPT even more competitive and makes guard more alluring to me with the airframe guarantee. If UPT classes are hardly dropping any T-38's then that's a little dissuading for guys who are shooting something you might not get just based on availability.

Of course, even if I got an AD slot I wouldn't be at UPT for a year or two so everything can change, as the big blue does.

[di1630]

Well you clearly deserve a fighter so if it looks like you gotta compete on active duty, you should just go to your guard unit of choice and tell them you want the first UPT slot available which fits your schedule. Make sure you request Sheppard so you don’t have to be around non fighter types. I’d hate you to be dissuaded by as the big blue does.


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[flyguyinthesky]

@di1630Hey screw me for having a dream, huh?

If you wanted to be a pilot but got offered a CSO slot would you take it in hopes for a cross train ETP later on or something? Or would you keep going for a pilot slot since that’s your goal?

Then maybe don’t hate on me for trying to do something that gives me the best shot at accomplishing a goal. If I want to be a fighter pilot why would I take an AD slot if they’re not giving any T-38 tracks? It’s all risk calculation, if I get a heavy then so be it and I won’t be a piss baby about it, but why would I set myself up with worse odds from the start?

 

[di1630]

Nobody is hating on you kid.

But if this is how you react to a little ball busting on a forum, trust me you don’t want anything to do with the fighter community.

1. Your dream of flying fighters is like 96.69% of every other kid going to UPT. If everyone could just walk into a guard sq and get a fighter, everyone would do it.

2. Yes, I’d accept the CSO slot then work up. If you couldn’t get to UPT on AD, the guard reserves is much more competitive unless you are “special”.

3. I cannot tell you how many times we see young Gen Z types l, some with golden resumes, internal recs and a lot of experience think they can just show up and get a job to find out that 69 people are competing for 1 spot.

Good luck. Again, nobody hating, if you need genuine advice go ahead and DM me, but I sarcastically replied to your post as I would a student fighter pilot.

Grow some thicker skin, lose all
Sense of entitlement. Reach out for real advice.



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[flyguyinthesky]

Can’t hear tone over text, I’m sure it would sound different if we were in person. I’m not butt hurt, just didn’t seem productive.
I’ve been working at it for a few years now after not getting rated out of rotc. And I understand guard is more competitive, I dipped my toes in the guard world last year and know I’m going against 100-200 other people for a single slot, but the risk could be worth it with their unit and airframe. I’ll probably take you up on your offer, I’ve been using any resource I can get. Should know if I’ve got an AD slot this week.

[Jam]

I'm at UPT now and honestly from what I've seen the track rates have been more or less normal (approx 5-7 per class). I've even heard of some classes that had more 38 slots than interested studs, so some people got non-vol'd. 

If I were you, I'd take that AD slot if you end up getting it. Better to end up at UPT for sure and compete for a 38 slot against a handful of classmates rather than compete against 100's for a guard slot. Either way, good luck to you!

[di1630]

Can’t hear tone over text, I’m sure it would sound different if we were in person. I’m not butt hurt, just didn’t seem productive.
I’ve been working at it for a few years now after not getting rated out of rotc. And I understand guard is more competitive, I dipped my toes in the guard world last year and know I’m going against 100-200 other people for a single slot, but the risk could be worth it with their unit and airframe. I’ll probably take you up on your offer, I’ve been using any resource I can get. Should know if I’ve got an AD slot this week.

Next time post your situation so we can guide you based on specifics. Sounds like you are not a cadet so your situation probably has some specifics people on here can help with.


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[goboldtigers]

From what I've heard, guard squadrons are incredibly competitive. Based on everything I've heard, the most common guys that get picked up are former active duty pilots preferably in that airframe with a ton of flying hours and cool/fun personalities to be around. Read into that how you want. Definitely not requirements as I've heard of guys without that resume get in. I would say the personality is probably a requirement though lol

I was the guy that accepted the CSO slot in hopes of eventually reapplying to UPT. I kept my mouth shut about it, worked hard and ended up starting an awesome career in the strike eagle. 10/10 I would recommend to anyone that wants to fly fighters (yes we fly the jet too). Viper pilots see us as second class citizens but those guys are bingo-ing out halfway through the VUL while we're doing the heavy lifting so I don't really listen to them anyway. All that to say, if you get offered a CSO slot not all hope is lost. I'm still applying to UPT, this is my second year applying. I was an alternate last year. I have a lot of reasons to be hopeful this time around, should find out any day. Fingers crossed

[flyguyinthesky]

2 hours ago, di1630 said:

Next time post your situation so we can guide you based on specifics. Sounds like you are not a cadet so your situation probably has some specifics people on here can help with.


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You’re right, should’ve provided more details. I’m already in, waiting for results on the active duty rated board and also pursuing the guard option.

[flyguyinthesky]

1 hour ago, goboldtigers said:

From what I've heard, guard squadrons are incredibly competitive. Based on everything I've heard, the most common guys that get picked up are former active duty pilots preferably in that airframe with a ton of flying hours and cool/fun personalities

You’re right, they are really competitive. Unlike the AD board they rely a lot on your personality and how you’d fit in the unit, so it requires a lot of face time with the pilots to get a shot. Which makes it kinda difficult for us AD guys to get since we’re off who knows where doing our job and can’t always take leave to rush squadrons in other states.

As for your other point, they usually have separate application “cycles” for flyers and off the street hires. So it’s a little more level ground going up against other non-rated people and civilians.

I see you in the PSDM forum a lot, I’m right there with you man, waiting for these results. Good luck brother

[Arkbird]

3 hours ago, Jam said:

I'm at UPT now and honestly from what I've seen the track rates have been more or less normal (approx 5-7 per class). I've even heard of some classes that had more 38 slots than interested studs, so some people got non-vol'd. 

If I were you, I'd take that AD slot if you end up getting it. Better to end up at UPT for sure and compete for a 38 slot against a handful of classmates rather than compete against 100's for a guard slot. Either way, good luck to you!

Where are you at??? At Columbus, the average is 2-3 AD slots plus the Guard, Reserves, and international.

[BashiChuni]

4 hours ago, flyguyinthesky said:

You’re right, they are really competitive. Unlike the AD board they rely a lot on your personality and how you’d fit in the unit

thanks for explaining how it works kid.

i think your personality would be a huge hit in a fighter unit!

[Av8]

I would say it’s 69% how well you do and the rest luck and timing. There was a track where they were making people go T-38s because they couldn’t fill all the slots and (more common) there have been tracks where there were multiple people who didn’t get 38s who wanted them. There is no shortage on T-38 tracks in UPT right now, and the timing couldn’t be better for the drops (exclusively fighter/bomber/faip) with Buffs going to the T-1 now. I interviewed at quite a few guard/reserve squadrons to no avail but ended up staying AD and am in 38s now. If you’re a late to rate dude it’s even better because they won’t FAIP you. 

[flyguyinthesky]

1 hour ago, BashiChuni said:

thanks for explaining how it works kid.

i think your personality would be a huge hit in a fighter unit!

Sweet! I’ll hit you up for a rec letter!

[flyguyinthesky]

23 minutes ago, Av8 said:

I would say it’s 69% how well you do and the rest luck and timing. There was a track where they were making people go T-38s because they couldn’t fill all the slots and (more common) there have been tracks where there were multiple people who didn’t get 38s who wanted them. There is no shortage on T-38 tracks in UPT right now, and the timing couldn’t be better for the drops (exclusively fighter/bomber/faip) with Buffs going to the T-1 now. I interviewed at quite a few guard/reserve squadrons to no avail but ended up staying AD and am in 38s now. If you’re a late to rate dude it’s even better because they won’t FAIP you. 

That’s actually really helpful info, hadn’t heard about Buffs moving to T-1’s!

[yzl337]

On 1/13/2024 at 3:09 PM, flyguyinthesky said:

I'm only really interested in fighters

You do not want to go active duty then. The majority of active UPT students will NOT fly fighters, it's as simple as that. In classes of 24-26 students, 5-7 at most will go -38s and most classes have at least a couple guard/reserve students who must track -38s. Your odds are marginal, even if you're an above average student. 

[jxbh]

On 1/14/2024 at 9:19 PM, yzl337 said:

You do not want to go active duty then. The majority of active UPT students will NOT fly fighters, it's as simple as that. In classes of 24-26 students, 5-7 at most will go -38s and most classes have at least a couple guard/reserve students who must track -38s. Your odds are marginal, even if you're an above average student. 

Question on this: even if you're a guard/reserve guy hired by a fighter unit, don't you still have to compete for 38s like everyone else? I was under the impression that you weren't guaranteed 38s and still had to compete, with the possibility of being taken on by a heavy unit should you not earn a 38 slot. 

[O Face]

3 hours ago, jxbh said:

Question on this: even if you're a guard/reserve guy hired by a fighter unit, don't you still have to compete for 38s like everyone else? I was under the impression that you weren't guaranteed 38s and still had to compete, with the possibility of being taken on by a heavy unit should you not earn a 38 slot. 

You are correct. Also, there’s no guarantee a heavy unit will take you if you don’t qualify to T-38’s. There’s plenty of people who didn’t make it and ended up in an RPA or worse. 

[flyguyinthesky]

58 minutes ago, O Face said:

You are correct. Also, there’s no guarantee a heavy unit will take you if you don’t qualify to T-38’s. There’s plenty of people who didn’t make it and ended up in an RPA or worse. 

How does this jive with T-38 allocations? Like if there are some guard guys who “make fighter grades” but then the cadre get told there’s no T-38 openings, what happens?

[hindsight2020]

 

4 hours ago, jxbh said:

Question on this: even if you're a guard/reserve guy hired by a fighter unit, don't you still have to compete for 38s like everyone else? I was under the impression that you weren't guaranteed 38s and still had to compete, with the possibility of being taken on by a heavy unit should you not earn a 38 slot. 

That is incorrect. Guard Reserve students have a MASS score calculated, but it is never used against AD peers for eligibility to track -38s. I think what you may be confusing for policy, was that it was colloquially understood that sponsoring units wanted to see upper-50% relative performance. But none of that is neither written, nor procedural in the tracking of the trainee to phase III. 

What does exist, is the discretion for the sq/cc to provide feedback to the sponsoring unit of either (i) non-T38 (frankly very rare) or (ii) non-IFF recommendation (much more common). AD does not pay for the billet, AFRC does (yes, even Guard bureau slots are centrally managed by AFRC now), so it's their [gaining unit] call. In fairness, the sponsoring unit can and usually does concur with the retread recommendation to heavies or bombers. Seen it happen many times, with (ii) being more common in my experience, through 13 years in the AETC TFI AFRC (that's a lot of letters lol) business.

If you performance meets the CTS for T-6s, you will track 38s are a 11f bound Guard/Res guy, regardless of your relative ranking in your class, unless your gaining sq/cc concurs with a non-recommendation from the upt sq/cc.

1 minute ago, flyguyinthesky said:

How does this jive with T-38 allocations? Like if there are some guard guys who “make fighter grades” but then the cadre get told there’s no T-38 openings, what happens?

He is incorrect. AFRC buys the billet, the kid owns the T-38 slot, not AD. When he was sent to UPT, he went in with a centrally funded class allocation for T-38 from the jump. AFRC footprint does not change the AD calculus. I know the whole "different color of money" stumps some people, but AD cats nervous about tracking 38 need not look at their ARCF/ANG classmates as anything but guys who for all competing purposes, are there just "auditing the course". They're not your problem, nor your competition, just like internationals.

[jxbh]

21 minutes ago, hindsight2020 said:

 

That is incorrect. Guard Reserve students have a MASS score calculated, but it is never used against AD peers for eligibility to track -38s. I think what you may be confusing for policy, was that it was colloquially understood that sponsoring units wanted to see upper-50% relative performance. But none of that is neither written, nor procedural in the tracking of the trainee to phase III. 

What does exist, is the discretion for the sq/cc to provide feedback to the sponsoring unit of either (i) non-T38 (frankly very rare) or (ii) non-IFF recommendation (much more common). AD does not pay for the billet, AFRC does (yes, even Guard bureau slots are centrally managed by AFRC now), so it's their [gaining unit] call. In fairness, the sponsoring unit can and usually does concur with the retread recommendation to heavies or bombers. Seen it happen many times, with (ii) being more common in my experience, through 13 years in the AETC TFI AFRC (that's a lot of letters lol) business.

If you performance meets the CTS for T-6s, you will track 38s are a 11f bound Guard/Res guy, regardless of your relative ranking in your class, unless your gaining sq/cc concurs with a non-recommendation from the upt sq/cc.

He is incorrect. AFRC buys the billet, the kid owns the T-38 slot, not AD. When he was sent to UPT, he went in with a centrally funded class allocation for T-38 from the jump. AFRC footprint does not change the AD calculus. I know the whole "different color of money" stumps some people, but AD cats nervous about tracking 38 need not look at their ARCF/ANG classmates as anything but guys who for all competing purposes, are there just "auditing the course". They're not your problem, nor your competition, just like internationals.

Thank you for the reply. He was incorrect in mentioning that poor UPT performance could result in tracking RPAs even if you are a fighter/heavy guard or reserve hire, right? Your response seems to indicate that this is the case but I want to be sure I'm reading 100% correctly. 

[BashiChuni]

36 minutes ago, hindsight2020 said:

What does exist, is the discretion for the sq/cc to provide feedback to the sponsoring unit of either (i) non-T38 (frankly very rare)

agreed. seen this happen three times in 7 years. two were for performance.

one was for poor attitude.

[hindsight2020]

1 minute ago, jxbh said:

Thank you for the reply. He was incorrect in mentioning that poor UPT performance could result in tracking RPAs even if you are a fighter/heavy guard or reserve hire, right? Your response seems to indicate that this is the case but I want to be sure I'm reading 100% correctly. 

Correct, there is no threat of being involuntarily assigned to the RPA track for performance issues as a Guard/Reserve 92T0. You can CR out of UPT as a Guard/Reserve guy, and go home wingless, that has always been a possible outcome.

[O Face]

6 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

Correct, there is no threat of being involuntarily assigned to the RPA track for performance issues as a Guard/Reserve 92T0. You can CR out of UPT as a Guard/Reserve guy, and go home wingless, that has always been a possible outcome.

You’re right. I probably confused the original poster. The point I was attempting to make is that if we got a kid who can’t cut it and make the top half to go 38’s, then we’ll tell them to try to find a heavy unit. But there’s no guarantee a heavy Sqdrn will take them. It’s happened before that they found only an RPA unit interested. But Hindsight is speaking the truth, as a guard fighter guy, your T-38 slot is waiting for you.  But, there’s been very many people who couldn’t make the cut. 

[Biff_T]

On 1/14/2024 at 10:12 AM, flyguyinthesky said:

I’m going against 100-200 other people for a single slot

That's what its like trying to bang chicks in the desert.  

Whatever you do, don't fly helicopters because they're gay.  

If you go active duty.  You will realize that you're not as good as you think you are.   

Listen to the dudes giving you advice on here.  A lot of them are 11Fs.  Real ones.