Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[Guest nsplayr]

10 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

this is such a tired trope.

correct the record for us then...is ukraine winning?

Hold on, let me check JuannaBlowMe.net for the latest “unfiltered truth data” from the battlefield…

Or maybe there’s another 4 hour podcast with 3 blurry guys from Cyprus that has some intel I’m not seeing at work?

F off man, this is not a debate worth having with you Chang. I hope you can pay for your next set of knee pads in rubles once your current set wears out. 

Edited April 24, 2024 by nsplayr

[Biff_T]

Russia is cold and gay....it also sucks.  

[gearhog]

2 hours ago, Lawman said:

Just one example since you still can’t get it through your head what their guests are doing in that show and what they are advancing.

They have a 25 minute video advancing the narrative that Russia didn’t shoot down MH17 and attempting to discredit the unclassified investigation.

If you believe that it’s because you don’t have access to stuff some of us do, and you’re an idiot swallowing Russian disinformation in an attempt to build distrust.

All 172 pages of this thread pertain to the conflict between Russia and Ukraine. That conflict has been going on for over 2 years now. For much of that time, you're calling everyone who is critical of our support for the conflict shills for Russia. I've pressed you for two pages now to cough up an example. Finally, you relented. Sometime in the last few hours, you had to go searching the internet for one. How much time did you spend?

What did you ultimately come up with? That someone on that podcast called into question the downing of MH17. YGBFSM. An event that happened 10 years ago and completely irrelevant to this entire thread. That's it? That's the finest example of Russian disinformation in the context of the Rus-Ukr war you could come up with? You didn't even know it existed until today, and you had to go looking for it. I even conceded that most of RT could be propaganda. Hell, even I could give you 10 better examples of Russian disinfo that actually pertain to our discussion. But citing that as the slam dunk "Gotcha!" should be embarrassing for you. But I know it's not.

This debate is going circular. You don't like where some people get their information. Boo-hoo. What are you going to do about it? Nothing. But what if you could? If there was a big red button on your desk that prevented people from listening to the Duran podcast, would you push it?

1 hour ago, nsplayr said:

You are 96.9% likely not convincing anyone of anything who didn’t already agree with you.

You’re also, IMHO, being both a weird contrarian AND a useful idiot for clear Russian IO propaganda, but that’s just my opinion. I admittedly haven’t read your entire library and carefully parsed the facts from the BS. And I don’t plan to.

There is absolutely room for debate on how, when, why and how much we should support Ukraine’s continued fight against the Russian invasion vs other possible policies we might choose instead. But not if the opening argument for that proposed policy change is based on what you heard on the PutinTV.net podcast, that’s just not gonna pass muster in this forum of what should be relatively informed mil personnel, nor should it.

Love you too though 😘

Your opinion is duly noted. And disregarded. If you believe there is room for debate on why and how much we should support Ukraine.... WTF do you think it is that we're doing here? Arguing for the sake of arguing? What is the opening argument that was heard on the Podcast? You just created another strawman. BC never cited any specific claim that originated from that podcast. He just said it was a good listen. Don't think so? Piss and moan all you want.

[Lawman]

Your opinion is duly noted. And disregarded. If you believe there is room for debate on why and how much we should support Ukraine.... WTF do you think it is that we're doing here? Arguing for the sake of arguing? What is the opening argument that was heard on the Podcast? You just created another strawman. BC never cited any specific claim that originated from that podcast. He just said it was a good listen. Don't think so? Piss and moan all you want.

He’s been advancing that point on cross talk and other media for multiple years. Man let’s go check out his podcast I’m sure it’s full of hitter facts.

You believe it don’t you. Like you’re gullible enough to think Russia didn’t shoot down an airliner. You’re making the absurd complaint that until we drink from the knowledge stream you drink from we can’t know it’s piss. No we in fact do know it’s piss from having better upstream understanding of what’s in that water, we’ve been telling you it’s piss. It was piss before and it’ll be piss tomorrow. You’re refusing to acknowledge its piss because you happen to like this flavor and demanding we all pretend you aren’t in fact drinking piss.


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[gearhog]

51 minutes ago, Lawman said:

 it’s piss.  it’s piss.  it’s piss. It was piss before and it’ll be piss tomorrow. its piss. drinking piss.

11 hours ago, Lawman said:

like choosing to eat what is clearly a turd in between two slices of bread

What is wrong with you. I don't think Russian disinformation is your biggest problem. 🤣

 

Edited April 24, 2024 by gearhog

[M2]

I'm only here for Biff_T's posts!! 😗

[Lord Ratner]

16 hours ago, nsplayr said:

My man, I say this with more experience than 69% of the people here...you abso-fucking-lutely are wasting your time here. I would know!

I think that just says more about you and how you approach the conversation. That's not to say that you don't get some fairly absurdist abuse thrown your way, but if you haven't been able to hone and adapt your positions based on the information and data on this forum, then you're on a team.

I'll be honest, I respect that you continue to engage, and about 75% of the time you do it in a respectful manner (I consider that a very high percentage for internet conversation. I don't think I meet that standard). But I have found your arguments to be fairly cookie cutter, cheerleader type DNC stuff. Rarely compelling, and I am not even remotely a die-hard conservative. I think a part of that might be that since you are a political minority here, you are usually on the defensive and that makes it very hard to concede any ground to the other side. It's not a unique phenomenon.

And yes, I absolutely believe there are people here who fit that description but from the conservative side. Pretty much anyone who defends Donald Trump's character probably falls into that category.

 

You could just be a true believer, but it is rare to find someone on either side who so neatly fits into the political party positions.

 

I only bring this up because I get the sense from gearhog that he is legitimately interested in honing his own beliefs and incorporating as much new data into them as possible. Even though I do not agree with a lot of his conclusions. That's the value I get from this board as well. I get the sense that you believe your positions are already perfected. At least that's how you communicate them. In that case, yeah you are definitely wasting your time.

Edited April 24, 2024 by Lord Ratner

[Boomer6]

Are what ifs open?

What if...we had the ability to edit a post to add additional BS. Instead of making 3 back to back posts of BS 🤔

[gearhog]

2 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

II only bring this up because I get the sense from gearhog that he is legitimately interested in honing his own beliefs and incorporating as much new data into them as possible. Even though I do not agree with a lot of his conclusions. That's the value I get from this board as well. I get the sense that you believe your positions are already perfected. At least that's how you communicate them. In that case, yeah you are definitely wasting your time.

That is how I feel about it. This forum could probably be a 20+ year record of my constantly shifting beliefs. What I posted back in 2002 with regard to how I felt about my career, US foreign policy, conflict was definitely much different than it is now. I've become less pragmatic and more of an idealist. I have a lot of scribbled notes on my desk, but one reads Wisdom and Knowledge, Courage, Humanity, Justice, Temperance, Transcendence. The six character traits of strength and virtue. I believe I suck at all of those things compared to where I think I should be. There are a lot of people I admire that exemplify those traits, but some of them actually worked and debated for years, often bitterly,  to create a framework for an entire nation based on those traits. Maybe seeing it dismantled is what raises my ire. Maybe I have a disdain for people who are willfully ignorant that we in the US don't get to stay awesome without addressing the greater threats to our way of life.

Russia hasn't tried to abridge my freedom of speech by working with media outlets to push one narrative while censoring others.

Russia hasn't shown up to American's homes to inquire about their social media posts.

Russia hasn't lately tried to curtail my right to bear arms.

Russia doesn't have a legal policy allowing for warrantless searches and monitoring of American citizens.

Russia didn't try to coerce me into taking a dangerous experimental vaccine.

Russia didn't threaten my job if I didn't

Russia didn't weaponize the US Justice system.

Russia didn't devalue my savings.

Russia didn't charge me more than twice the average American income in taxes.

Russia didn't send our earnings to foreign governments and defense corporations.

Russia didn't indebt my grandchildren with insane spending.

Russia isn't simultaneously funding the expansion of multiple large-scale conflicts that threatens to involve people I care about.

Russia didn't try to get me to comply with zero-emission climate change goals.

Russia didn't intentionally create an immigration crisis.

I could go on for days about what Russia didn't do, but I could easily summarize their share of the direct threat being posed to my way of life right now, where I sit: 1%. So hearing someone bitch about an unspecified bit of false information the Russian government may slipped into an obscure podcast could be making me a tad irritable. I should be better. 😄

[DirkDiggler]

In a spot of good news, the new aid bill for Ukraine (amongst others) was signed; hopefully they get the new weapons/supplies rolling forward quickly.

Biden signs $95 billion aid package with assistance for Ukraine, Israel, Taiwan. Calls for TikTok ban or sale | AP News

[Guest nsplayr]

1 hour ago, gearhog said:

That is how I feel about it.

Good thing you’re not a mil officer then! You seem to genuinely not like America very much. No mention that Russians have no rights under Putin other than what he allows. The brazen murders around the globe. Invading neighboring countries, etc.

🇺🇸 I for one find is to be the good guys the vast majority of the time despite our faults and I have hope for an even better future. I plan to work toward that rather than wallow in our faults and apologize for enemies. To each his own I guess!

[Swizzle]

6 hours ago, M2 said:

I'm only here for Biff_T's posts!! 😗

Did you 'dibs' Biff just now!?

[gearhog]

11 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

Good thing you’re not a mil officer then! You seem to genuinely not like America very much. No mention that Russians have no rights under Putin other than what he allows. The brazen murders around the globe. Invading neighboring countries, etc.

🇺🇸 I for one find is to be the good guys the vast majority of the time despite our faults and I have hope for an even better future. I plan to work toward that rather than wallow in our faults and apologize for enemies. To each his own I guess!

This dumb shit again? You guys are incapable of learning.

Edited April 25, 2024 by gearhog

[Guest nsplayr]

5 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

But I have found your arguments to be fairly cookie cutter, cheerleader type DNC stuff. Rarely compelling, and I am not even remotely a die-hard conservative.

I have given lengthy, insanely lengthy, explanations and justifications for my views on numerous political and non political topics over literally 15+ years posting here. If this is what you take away, it’s more proof that it was all a massive waste of time! Thank you for confirming my belief that this is all a bad habit that we’d all be better off doing less of.

The truth is my beliefs have changed over time just like anyone else, but also that my values remain relatively stable and those values lead me to overwhelmingly support liberal, Democratic policies rather than ones proposed by the conservatives, libertarians, socialists, etc.

Believe it or not that’s a perfectly reasonable POV to have, just like it’s perfectly reasonable to be 69% consistently conservative GOP, libertarian, or grouchy contrarian and “politically homeless” like most of y’all here are.

Also believe it or not all of this type of conversation is much more effectively had in person. It works so much better when talking to my friends of all political stripes in person, over a late night shift or a beer. As you pointed out, too many people are miserable assholes online even more so than in real life. I try not to be too often, but hey, sometimes it’s hard (sts).

My resolution, although it hasn’t always been kept, is to stop typing political stuff here and to take those thoughts to places where they’re more productively heard and where I can better appreciate other peoples points of view - in person. Or just to STFU and talk about normal stuff like cars, airplanes, kids, sports, etc. Politics is a new national pastime 24/7/364 and honestly the whole country is worse off for it.

Back to step 1 on my BO.net AA journey, “I am powerless over my desire to talk politics with you miserable bastards here, and that waste of time and effort has become unmanageable.” 🤣

[gearhog]

1 minute ago, nsplayr said:

I have given lengthy, insanely lengthy, explanations and justifications for my views on numerous political and non political topics over literally 15+ years posting here. If this is what you take away, it’s more proof that it was all a massive waste of time! Thank you for confirming my belief that this is all a bad habit that we’d all be better off doing less of.

The truth is my beliefs have changed over time just like anyone else, but also that my values remain relatively stable and those values lead me to overwhelmingly support liberal, Democratic policies rather than ones proposed by the conservatives, libertarians, socialists, etc.

Believe it or not that’s a perfectly reasonable POV to have, just like it’s perfectly reasonable to be 69% consistently conservative GOP, libertarian, or grouchy contrarian and “politically homeless” like most of y’all here are.

Also believe it or not all of this type of conversation is much more effectively had in person. It works so much better when talking to my friends of all political stripes in person, over a late night shift or a beer. As you pointed out, too many people are miserable assholes online even more so than in real life. I try not to be too often, but hey, sometimes it’s hard (sts).

My resolution, although it hasn’t always been kept, is to stop typing political stuff here and to take those thoughts to places where they’re more productively heard and where I can better appreciate other peoples points of view - in person. Or just to STFU and talk about normal stuff like cars, airplanes, kids, sports, etc. Politics is a new national pastime 24/7/364 and honestly the whole country is worse off for it.

Back to step 1 on my BO.net AA journey, “I am powerless over my desire to talk politics with you miserable bastards here, and that waste of time and effort has become unmanageable.” 🤣

How many times are you tell everyone on BO.net about how bad posting on BO.net is? Give it a rest.

[Lawman]

This dumb shit again? You guys are incapable of learning.

You know you can be critical of your government without seeking out and deliberately defending a foreign opponents propaganda right?

You don’t have to go full tit on backwards crazy and deny it’s propaganda demanding people show you examples of how some source you’ve been listening too is actually bullshit only to then claim that those examples don’t count or deny any proof of connection to that foreign power.

Also wrestling is fake. I know you’re gonna need to watch it to make sure, but maybe just try trusting 2nd hand info on this.


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[Guest nsplayr]

1 hour ago, gearhog said:

Give it a rest.

🫡 you too bud

[gearhog]

12 minutes ago, Lawman said:

You know you can be critical of your government without seeking out and deliberately defending a foreign opponents propaganda right?

You don’t have to go full tit on backwards crazy and deny it’s propaganda demanding people show you examples of how some source you’ve been listening too is actually bullshit only to then claim that those examples don’t count or deny any proof of connection to that foreign power.

What propaganda have I defended? The single solitary example of foreign propaganda that you've brought to this discussion was from 10 years ago, MH17, has nothing to do with our involvement in Ukraine, and I didn't defend it. I have never listened to the Duran and I know I've said as much. However, I will tomorrow morning over coffee just to see what you're whining about and I'll summarize if for you. I want to see how scary this information is. I'm going to post the notes here and then I'll check back for your response. That's going to be the entertaining part. Are you going to have a meltdown? Are you going act all indignant and dick dance around the issues without ever addressing them?  Are you going to provide a rational, well-thought and honest rebuttle (Pffftt...LOL), or are you going to draw yet another weird analogy to eating shit and drinking piss? Three is a trend, isn't it? I guess we'll see.

[Lawman]

What propaganda have I defended? The single solitary example of foreign propaganda that you've brought to this discussion was from 10 years ago, MH17, has nothing to do with our involvement in Ukraine, and I didn't defend it. I have never listened to the Duran and I know I've said as much. However, I will tomorrow morning over coffee just to see what you're whining about and I'll summarize if for you. I want to see how scary this information is. I'm going to post the notes here and then I'll check back for your response. That's going to be the entertaining part. Are you going to have a meltdown? Are you going act all indignant and dick dance around the issues without ever addressing them?  Are you going to provide a rational, well-thought and honest rebuttle (Pffftt...LOL), or are you going to draw yet another weird analogy to eating shit and drinking piss? Three is a trend, isn't it? I guess we'll see.

-You were given multiple examples of the direct connections to state controlled Russian news

-You were given specific guests they have on and their dubious character issues

-You were shown a clear example of the host of the podcast defending a Russian falsehood that it didn’t shoot down MH17 and every insinuation is just a western lie (which he’s done for years)

No you can go listen to it you’ll just be an idiot for taking it seriously.


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[Boomer6]

1 hour ago, nsplayr said:

🫡 you too bud

Easy. You're going to get him all Torqued up...

Edited April 25, 2024 by Boomer6
See you idiots, this is how you edit a post.

[Lord Ratner]

14 minutes ago, Boomer6 said:

Easy. You're going to get him all Torqued up...

Oh yeah, what ever happened to that guy?

[Boomer6]

4 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

Oh yeah, what ever happened to that guy?

He's transitioned more times than a Gen Z'er

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, Lawman said:

You know you can be critical of your government without seeking out and deliberately defending a foreign opponents propaganda right?
 

cool. we shouldn't fund ukraine.

 

 

 

i love how you blindly trust a government that for 20 years said afghanistan was "turning the corner" to victory. that the afghan army was capable of defending the government.

sorry, but after covid and the afghan debacle we have every right to be skeptical of the mass media narrative.

the duran podcast is not russian propaganda, they just state the facts on the ground...something the western media is unwilling to do. i think many posters on here can listen to it and decide for themselves.

[Splash95]

6 hours ago, gearhog said:

This dumb shit again? You guys are incapable of learning.

This reinforces what I said earlier: gearhog has a point. Also it’s a bit astounding, even for a longtime mostly lurker/occasional poster who has read dozens of their posts, how unimpressively nsplayr and Lawman come off in this discussion.

[gearhog]

7 hours ago, Lawman said:

-You were given multiple examples of the direct connections to state controlled Russian news

-You were given specific guests they have on and their dubious character issues

-You were shown a clear example of the host of the podcast defending a Russian falsehood that it didn’t shoot down MH17 and every insinuation is just a western lie (which he’s done for years)

No you can go listen to it you’ll just be an idiot for taking it seriously.

Good morning. Well, here we are. My apologies, for I'm about to put you in grave danger, but it's a risk I'm willing to take in pursuit of the truth. I have a full cup of Black Rifle Coffee, Spirit of '76 roast. It's very good. The packaging is awesome, even inspiring. Let's kick this pig.

The hosts are starting with the front lines. They report that Russia had broken through the Ukrainian front lines in and captured the town of Avdiivka. Did this really happen or is this false information? Fact check: True. The Russians are (were) advancing on a town called Ocheretyne, which is a small town, but lies on a hill and has a railway junction, making it strategically important. One commenter is saying this breakthough puts Russia in a strong position. He quotes a Ukrainian General that the situations at other places on the front lines are terrible. Apparently Russia is planning a large offensive, possibly to capture Kharkiv.

One of the Commenters mentioned former British Colonel Hamish De-Bretton Gordon who wrote this article for the Telegraph detailing how dire the situation is. He goes on to say that the media is full of these types of articles.

Now they're talking about the $61 Billion in aid. Some of the funds are for the Ukrainian economy itself, not for the war. The bulk of the money is going to the military industrial complex. He is claiming that only a small portion of the funds are going directly to Ukraine in the form of weapons, and the rest is going to defense contractors to replenish our own stockpiles. Now this is where some propaganda might be creeping in. I should check on this.

So he actually underestimated the amount that is being given to the U.S. defense industrial base. He is claiming that the amount being given directly to Ukraine will be used up at once, but the time it would take to DIB to complete the manufacturing process would take years. Debatable, but possible. They discuss the gap between the rate of weapons being used and the rate of weapons being replenished while quoting JD Vance "You can't provide more weapons than you have."

He quotes CIA director Williams Burns who said if Ukraine isn't given support it will collapse by the end of the year. Checks out. Their contention is that all of this is about preventing a Ukrainian collapse before the election. That's definitely a biased take, but is it possible?

They ask why Mike Johnson capitulated. They assert that key Republican committee chairs have been pressuring him on behalf of the military industrial complex and he ultimately conceded to their demands. He knew that same pressure was being exerted on House Republicans who would be forced to side with the Democrats and vote against him, which would likely pressure him to resign, so he acted out of self-preservation.

They again say that committee chairs are close to the defense manufacturers and that the want this appropriations bill passed. They also claim that this part of the Republican party and the MIC would rather see Biden than Trump elected.  Hmmm. They say the MIC always wins. They say Mike Johnson's political career is toast for passing this bill while completely giving up on the southern border aspect.

They go into what actual systems Ukraine will be getting. They were asking for 150-200 patriot systems and are only going to get a fraction. They make a biased assertion that Russia will simply knock them out with hypersonics and they'll be back to square one. The say this aid bill will slow the war down, produce and effect, the effect wears out, and then you need more.

They quote President Kennedy about sending aid to Vietnam: "It's like drinking a glass of water. For a short time you fee better, but then you need another." I can't find this quote. Might be BS.

They continue to reiterate that a Ukrainian collapse must be avoided by the election.  Anything that happens beyond that is not a concern.

And that's it.

 

How are feeling, @Lawman? Was it as bad as you thought it was going to be? I think you're going to be fine. It wasn't a great podcast. Nothing earth-shattering. I did learn a couple things about the front lines and got a new perspective on Mike Johnson's capitulation. There was clearly heavy bias throughout the podcast, but nothing that indicates Russian disinformation. It was simply an innocuous discussion. Some of it agreeable, some of it disagreeable.

Take some time to process your trauma, and if you want to comment on the specifics here or point out the false information I somehow missed, I'd be more than happy to listen. Have a good day.