Separations & Job Searching

[Inthebuff]

It's that time, I am within a year of my ADSC and starting to get nervous about job prospects. Obviously I could just post a resume to Monster.com or the like, but I am looking for advice from others who have made the jump back to civilian life. My bachelor credentials are really not that relative after 6+ years out of any practical school experience (EE). And I am a 12B so aviation wise not qualified for squat. I am really hoping that simply having been an officer and aviator with a current clearance will net me some luck, but I doubt monster.com is going to be much help aside from finding entry level jobs.

Are there any good placement firms/resume posting hubs for ex-aviator/officer? How about specific places to post for the big firms (Boeing, Northrop, etc...)

Any good resume tips. While I am sure putting on my resume that I am an Officer and SOS grad is great, there's really not all that much to brag about thats practical real world.

What types of salaries can I expect? I'm figuring a bit of a shock to the wallet upon my departure, but I'd very much like to avoid that if at all possible.

This is a big step and the stress is beginning to mount. I have completely given up on trying to stay in for the long haul.

-facepalm edit-

Edited December 14, 2011 by Inthebuff

[Jughead]

Any good resume tips.

Start by spell-checking its title line....

[SuperWSO]

There isn't an airline for Navigators, but you may find that there is a pretty good market for 12Bs depending on what you have done in your career. I graduated college with an engineering degree and never did anything with it, but that also helps when prospective employers are looking at your resume. It shows you've mastered difficult subjects before and that you should be able to learn some new tricks.

A big factor in your decision may be where you want to live. If location is a major factor, your choices get a little narrower. If you are willing to move, you have a lot more options. The other big factor in my recent experience has been contacts - who you know and your reputation.

Try to highlight things you've done outside the day to day routine. Old OPRs are a good place to start, but you will need to translate it into civilian. PM me if you have any specific questions.

Good luck.

[LJDRVR]

Don't allow that stress and fear to sidetrack you. Use it to motivate yourself and take action. (Sounds like with a year to go, that's exactly what you're doing.)

There are a lot of companies - particularly in the defense arena - who know exactly what you're all about and what you bring to the table. Most civilian employers have no clue. The good news? Once you've got the interview? The skills, bearing and demeanor you learned in the military are going to come across nicely and really set you apart from the civilian crowd.

Don't purchase a suit from Men's Wearhouse. Find a nice, locally owned men's store with some old dude who's done this forever and go see them. Get a nice Hart, Shafnner & Marx suit tailored for you. New belt, new shirt, new shoes and new tie. Spend some money on yourself and wear the getup a couple of times over the next month to get comfortable.

http://www.hartschaf...com/mens-suits/

Don't be the guy that walks into an interview wearing Coraframs.

There are lot's of folks who do interview coaching, I'd talk to Aaron at emeraldcoastconsulting.com

Albie is a retired F-15C guy. He primarily specializes in the airlines, but he speaks your language and knows who you are. His greatest gift will be an understanding of why HR is asking you the questions they are - what are they really looking for when they ask: "What is your biggest weakness?" Knowing what they're really after at will allow you to answer in such a manner that they are provided the insight they need to see. Lots of knowledge and strategy.

Good luck, buddy! If I can do it, you'll have no problems.

Edited December 14, 2011 by LJDRVR

[Pancake]

I recommend going to a Service Academy Career Conference, even if you're not a grad. Tag up with someone who can get you registered and check it out. Lots of good resume/interview info and a great place to at least test your marketability. An engineering degree is a huge plus. And yes, your undergrad GPA matters. The San Antonio conference was more regionally focused than I expected. There's a conference in DC next May (?). Companies don't seem to be interested unless you're inside 6 months of separating. Maybe they were trying to be polite...

Also, be ready to answer canned questions: What is your leadership style? What do you bring to our company?

My opinion, there are a bunch of great jobs available with great companies. The trick is finding a "good fit."

Rainman seems to have mastered his post-AF career. I'm sure he could provide some great insight (also, try the search function; lots of threads on this topic).

Edited December 14, 2011 by Pancake

[matmacwc]

Boozallen.com

[Kilgore Trout]

Boozallen.com

Looks like here's your job:

http://careers.boozallen.com/job/Point-Mugu-Electronic-Warfare-Systems-Engineer%2C-Mid-Job-CA/1496661/

[SuperWSO]

If you aren't burned out on the military, don't overlook the Guard and Reserves. Talk to your local recruiters. They will start out trying to match you to a Navigator job, but try to expand the search. I'm looking at opportunities in Intel and Cyber. Many organizations would appreciate your operational background and be willing to retrain you into a new AFSC. You can work a couple more years in a stable job, retain your current pay and benefits and have a better shot at future advancement.

[StoleIt]

Also try Lucas Group.

[ATIS]

Go here: http://www.dau.mil/default.aspx

Sign up and take the level I online courses (for sure Acquistion 101, T&E 101-102) and whatever other online courses you can take and get them on your resume. After those level I courses the DAU syllabus normally turns into 1/2 online-1/2 classroom based courses, then (level III) are normally all classroom based and a little longer. If you are near a local DAU campus, you may be able to squeeze out a Level II course.

Either way, taking DAU courses shows anyone (Govt or contractor) you can at least speak some of the lingo and know the acquistion process if you decide to go in that direction (be it program management, test, engineering).

None of this free work will hurt you, and may open up some other options.

An active clearance also helps open doors, for sure a TS/SCI.

Cheers

ATIS

Edited December 14, 2011 by ATIS

[brickhistory]

Books"From Blue to Grey," "What Color is Your Parachute," some others like this for big picture SA. And a few tips you might not have thought of.

Network your a$$ off. Got former bosses/buds who are out in the world? Find 'em, reconnect with 'em, let 'em know what your plans are. Church/social clubs, ditto. It's a bit like dating because the uncertainty (for me anyway), the amount of time invested, and lack of a clearly defined path can be frustrating. But all it takes is one lead/one guy who knows a guy, etc.

The above is if you are just looking for a job to keep a roof over the family.

If you have the smarts/drive, self-employment is a possibility. I couldn't (or wouldn't make the bet) when I first left active duty or after retiring AGR, but am going to try (I think) next year. Either way, out of the rat race for me. You sound like a young guy so your perspective is different, I'm sure. But being "The Man" to yourself is something to consider based on all of your personal factors.

What is it you want to do?

[jcollins]

I think SuperWSO's comments are spot on. Going into the Guard/Reserves is a smart decision and IMHO the best unemployment insurance you can have - plus the fact that it gives you access to Tricare Reserve Select medical if need be. Going into old OPRs is a good idea too - a lot of these companies are looking looking for project managers, and anyone whose been in the Air Force for some time has managed projects, so you can support that with your documentation.

[HU&W]

This seems like a good place. A while back, somebody posted a list of companies with JMO programs. I've been trying to find it to share with a RIF'd friend, but it's buried in one of the random 50+ page complaint threads and search hasn't been working for me. Can I get a repost?

[murdocjxx]

... a lot of these companies are looking looking for project managers.

Do Christmas parties count?

[B52gator]

I was a 12B and unfortunately, there are not a lot of jobs that call for putting bombs on target. But, having military experience pays off huge dividens. What is it you're looking to do? Lucas Group and Orion International are very good companies for helping you find a job. They specialize in working with people getting out of the military. I went with Orion and got 3 job offers from Fortune 500 companies through them...I didn't take the jobs but it was nice to know that with my background (no business education at all) I still had options in good companies. The salary they offered were comparable with what I was making when I was still "in". All depends what you are looking for.

Baby boomers are retiring all over, public safety (chicks dig firefighters), railroads, and air traffic control are all going to be hiring a lot over the next few years. Good jobs with good pensions (for now) if you're willing to take a pay cut. Also, you get Vets points and that is huge, especially if you get a disability rating (30% gets you an additional 5 pts). i went from #7 on a list up to #1 and a job offer thanks to the Vets points. Speaking of disability rating ...talk with the flight doc now about EVERY ailment you have or have had while in the AF. Don't scam the system, but take advantage. At the very least you could probably get hearing loss and tenitis without the VA putting up too much of a fight. Numbness and tingling in your extremities is hard to prove...or so I have heard.

Edited December 14, 2011 by b52gator

[ol-IEWO]

I've looked at a lot of resumes of former military and interviewed many of them. I've worked for DOD contractors and for commercial companies. Don't use acronyms or military terms in your resume. Explain what you did and awards you received in terms your grandmother would understand. I never did speak Army, Navy or Marine Corps and if it weren't for this board, I wouldn't understand current Air Force. If you are sending a resume to a DOD contractor, it should say you have a recent background check. Have different versions of your resume for different companies/jobs. If you are going after a specific job, focus your resume to that job.

brickhistory was spot on - contact people you know who got out. Most good jobs are filled by people who had contacts in the company. It's called networking. Every job I've had was because I knew somebody in the company and several cases, they called me with a job offer.

b52gator's suggestion is great. Have the flight surgeon document all your medical issues. A paycheck from the VA is beer money. A conscientious flight doc documented something I said in passing. It got me 20% from the VA.

[afnav]

I'm on terminal leave right now, and also a 12B. Aside from the fact I retired, we are facing similar problems.

One area that wasn't mentioned is USAJOBS. The search engine can be difficult to learn, but once you discover the code, it isn't too bad. Sometimes the agencies are good at letting you know your status (Air Force civ), and others are horrible (Army). I have applied for over 100 jobs, and so far, I've had one interview. Try not to get discouraged.

I spent the last six years at USSTRATCOM, so I was able to get a crap-ton of staff experience that line guys would never get. There is a huge conversion going on from government contractor jobs to GS civilians right now. I've talked to three contractors, but one lost the contract through bidding, and the other two never called back. I've been told to not lose hope until they day my retirement is final and I don't have a job.

On resumes, the contractors I've talked to loved the acronyms, as it signified I knew what I was talking about. The GS interview I had yesterday was conducted by guys not familiar with the deterrence mission, but I through out enough information in my resume to let them know that I knew the subject. I have seen civilians be hired that had absolutely no idea what they were doing (two replaced me when I moved).

On the disability subject, my interview with the VA here in Omaha was extremely smooth. The doctor was really cool, and was thorough with my records to give me the best deal possible. He called the regional office to dispel my concerns about the time frame for the rating and payment commencement. Earlier, I was told that it might take a year to get my rating, but Lincoln said I would have it around three months after my final retirement date. All you need is 30% for the 5 points for vet preference. Most of us get 5 points for a campaign medal, so you're starting with 10 points. In many cases, that will bring you to the top of the list, and they will have to give a good reason why they passed you over for hiring over a lot of people that weren't vets. Of course, this doesn't help when you're looking for a job as soon as you leave active duty. The guard/reserve gig might help smooth the transition, but it doesn't help the retired guys like me.

The TAP program, especially here at Offutt, is worth its weight in gold. If anyone has any second thoughts about attending, please go through the program. It might save you a lot of trouble later.

I have given serious thought to 'blazing a new path', but I need a salary that is higher than an entry-level guy would make. My family size prohibits a lot of experimentation. I would love to get any advice on jobs out of the govt/govt contractor realm.

If you would like some advice on 12B , please PM me.

I forgot to mention Linkedin. It helped me get in touch with a lot of guys from my past lives, and it has a pretty good search engine.

Edited December 15, 2011 by afnav

[B52gator]

I'm on terminal leave right now, and also a 12B. Aside from the fact I retired, we are facing similar problems.

One area that wasn't mentioned is USAJOBS. The search engine can be difficult to learn, but once you discover the code, it isn't too bad. Sometimes the agencies are good at letting you know your status (Air Force civ), and others are horrible (Army). I have applied for over 100 jobs, and so far, I've had one interview. Try not to get discouraged.

I spent the last six years at USSTRATCOM, so I was able to get a crap-ton of staff experience that line guys would never get. There is a huge conversion going on from government contractor jobs to GS civilians right now. I've talked to three contractors, but one lost the contract through bidding, and the other two never called back. I've been told to not lose hope until they day my retirement is final and I don't have a job.

On resumes, the contractors I've talked to loved the acronyms, as it signified I knew what I was talking about. The GS interview I had yesterday was conducted by guys not familiar with the deterrence mission, but I through out enough information in my resume to let them know that I knew the subject. I have seen civilians be hired that had absolutely no idea what they were doing (two replaced me when I moved).

On the disability subject, my interview with the VA here in Omaha was extremely smooth. The doctor was really cool, and was thorough with my records to give me the best deal possible. He called the regional office to dispel my concerns about the time frame for the rating and payment commencement. Earlier, I was told that it might take a year to get my rating, but Lincoln said I would have it around three months after my final retirement date. All you need is 30% for the 5 points for vet preference. Most of us get 5 points for a campaign medal, so you're starting with 10 points. In many cases, that will bring you to the top of the list, and they will have to give a good reason why they passed you over for hiring over a lot of people that weren't vets. Of course, this doesn't help when you're looking for a job as soon as you leave active duty. The guard/reserve gig might help smooth the transition, but it doesn't help the retired guys like me.

The TAP program, especially here at Offutt, is worth its weight in gold. If anyone has any second thoughts about attending, please go through the program. It might save you a lot of trouble later.

I have given serious thought to 'blazing a new path', but I need a salary that is higher than an entry-level guy would make. My family size prohibits a lot of experimentation. I would love to get any advice on jobs out of the govt/govt contractor realm.

If you would like some advice on 12B , please PM me.

I forgot to mention Linkedin. It helped me get in touch with a lot of guys from my past lives, and it has a pretty good search engine.

Forgot about the Fed side. My wife (former military) works for DHS and I know a good handful of guys who are getting picked up by the FBI without any real law enforcement background. If you're willing to go anywhere for a job, that might be worth looking into.

[Stretch]

ClearanceJobs.com is a site used for finding those jobs that require a clearance of some sort to apply or accept - whether that is an acceptable way to filter your opportunities is up to you, but it's an additional resource. A lot of companies use that clearance (especially active ones) as a serious plus/minus in their considerations.

http://www.clearancejobs.com/

For what its worth.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

I just applied for Palace Chase...regardless of whether they approve it or not, my ADSC is up in about a year anyway and I'm determined to get out. I'm shooting for an ART job, but if that doesn't work I'm also working several other backup plans. I'd rather not fly commercial at this point, but I will if I can get a job. There are also a number of other positions I'm looking into, mostly management related, plus I may pull my contacts in the Arkansas aviation community and see what that does.

On a side note...I was told today that AFPC is denying most Palace Chase requests, while simultaneously herding the RIF folks out the door (several from our wing) and telling us not to expect continuation anymore...plus expect more rounds of personnel cuts. Is it me, or does Big Blue seem like they don't really have a real game plan? I mean, the overall end-strength bubbas are saying "cut! cut!" while the individual career functional managers are saying "don't leave!" WTF?

[SuperWSO]

I just applied for Palace Chase...regardless of whether they approve it or not, my ADSC is up in about a year anyway and I'm determined to get out. I'm shooting for an ART job, but if that doesn't work I'm also working several other backup plans. I'd rather not fly commercial at this point, but I will if I can get a job. There are also a number of other positions I'm looking into, mostly management related, plus I may pull my contacts in the Arkansas aviation community and see what that does.

On a side note...I was told today that AFPC is denying most Palace Chase requests, while simultaneously herding the RIF folks out the door (several from our wing) and telling us not to expect continuation anymore...plus expect more rounds of personnel cuts. Is it me, or does Big Blue seem like they don't really have a real game plan? I mean, the overall end-strength bubbas are saying "cut! cut!" while the individual career functional managers are saying "don't leave!" WTF?

Career field managers are rolling the dice that the people across the hall wont cut their guys. If they do, its not that big a deal to the career field manager. It sucks if you're the guy who can't leave until the ax falls. Typical AFPC not talking in house. Six months ago, I had simultaneous deployment and PCS orders. I had to call AFPC and ask what the priority was. They decided to prioritize the PCS, right before they decided not to continue me. There is no master plan.

Edited December 17, 2011 by SuperWSO

[Fudge]

Hueypilot and SuperWSO obviously don't have the "bigger picture".

[Flare]

Semi-related topic--anyone have a recommendation for an j o b interview prep advice book? It's for the wife for a teaching gig.....doesn't have to be military friendly.

[Vertigo]

It's for the wife for a teaching gig.....

Better off getting her a book about how to deal with Republicans constantly bashing her profession. Just kidding. My sister recommends this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Teacher-Interviews-How-Them-Hired/dp/0971257000

[DUNBAR]

Best of luck to you -- looks like you're getting quite a bit of good advice on this thread. I feel like I have quite a bit of experience on this topic so let me throw in my 2 cents:

1. Guard and Reserve opportunities will be very beneficial. No matter how aggravating things are, when you pull the plug you'll be surprised how much you miss the camaraderie, the flying and the good times (even though the good times often feel rarer and rarer). Additionally it obviously helps with the $$$.

2. The recruiting companies can/will do great things for you -- resume prep, interviews, etc. It's much more challenging to get a job without them unless you have very strong connections.

3. When you work with the recruiting companies, never forget their guys are paid on commission based on how many hires they place, so do your homework on the companies and opportunities they set you up with.

4. PRACTICE your interviews. Job interviews tend to be surprisingly standard...."What are your strengths? What is your leadership style? Tell me about a time you took the initiative. How do you resolve conflict?" You should be prepared for 90% of the questions they throw at you.

5. Don't underestimate yourself. Companies love junior military officers; that's why there's such a huge industry dedicated to placing them. You have a security clearance, you're reliable, you're trainable, you're probably healthy and physically fit, you're respectful and polite, you've been in stressful sutuations before, you're drug-free, etc etc. There's a hell of a lot of people in the workforce who can't say that.

6. It's a good idea not to buy a house during the first year or two, until you're confident you've attained a good employment situation.

Rock the house