Lack of Flight Discipline

[BQZip01]

When Ron Keys was my WG/CC he called all the pilots on base to the club (back when clubs were fun) and spelled things out almost exactly like that. He told us "when you're flying I want you to picture my face in your HUD. If you can't explain to me what you're doing, you probably shouldn't be doing it." Good advice and it has served me well in every airplane since.

Great advice...unless you don't have a HUD...

[Majestik Møøse]

Maybe we will see this in AMC soon.

Well now's your last chance to go out and barrel roll that -10 before your OGV posts the FCIF. It's been posted on the West side...

The aircraft did not exceed its G-limits, airspeed, or come close to a CFIT scenario.

OK, so the million dollar question is: how did they get caught?

[BitteEinBit]

Hijack for remedial academics.

ACRO BATICS:

AERO BATICS:

Well see, my point is made...this aircraft is obviously not designed for ACRObatics....yeah, thats it.

Ok, you got us...Did you push up your glasses with your finger and snort when you typed this?

[Rokke]

Great advice...unless you don't have a HUD...

You could draw a little square on the windscreen with some red lipstick.

[Whitman]

Well said nsplayr. BL - It comes down to professionalism. The ground party is counting on MC12s to deliver FMV. Horsing around in the AOR while transiting killboxes brings nothing to the fight. Nothing. If you want to go upside down, do it in an RV 4 on your own time.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Whitman

[Ferg]

The comparison to Bud Holland is a stupid one at best. Near knife edge close to the ground with a huge aircraft (i.e. BUFF or C-17) is a totally different event than doing a roll in a King Air at altitude. You don't know the details and if you did, you'd probably be less likely to make a comparison to Bud Holland.

The comparison isn't about the specific maneuver, it's about a mentality that, when allowed to continue, can have bad results.

[CJ-6A]

The comparison isn't about the specific maneuver, it's about a mentality that, when allowed to continue, can have bad results.

Rolling a King Air is abnormal, not unsafe. Rolling a twin is nothing new, Bob Hoover did it with the SECAF (at his request) and a few other generals on board. Matt Younkin rolls a Beech 18 (at night!) as part of his show.

Re: Doing rolls in a Lear... Clay Lacy did it as part of his show, no problem. If they screwed it up, it's because they screwed it up...just like you can screw up any part of flight.

Anyway.. this thing is being blown way out of proportion... especially with making comparisons to Bud Holland.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

Rolling a King Air is abnormal, not unsafe. Rolling a twin is nothing new, Bob Hoover did it with the SECAF (at his request) and a few other generals on board. Matt Younkin rolls a Beech 18 (at night!) as part of his show.

Re: Doing rolls in a Lear... Clay Lacy did it as part of his show, no problem. If they screwed it up, it's because they screwed it up...just like you can screw up any part of flight.

Anyway.. this thing is being blown way out of proportion... especially with making comparisons to Bud Holland.

The point is a prohibited maneuver is a prohibited maneuver. Whether or not the airplane can structurally handle it is irrelevant. My car is more than capable of safely driving 150+ mph on public roads, but that is prohibited too... and that's a prohibition against me doing that with my OWN property. Don't forget that you're only borrowing the airplane from the taxpayers. Consider maneuver prohibitions as terms of the loan.

Like was said before-- I don't think anyone is trying to make the direct correlation that rolling a King Air is one step away from Bud Holland, I think they are saying it's the mentality that accepts that kind of behavior that is the problem.

Big picture-- if you want to do aerobatics, go buy or rent an airplane that you can do them in with the permission of the owner. The owner of the airplane I fly says I can't do aerobatics in it, so it's in my best professional interest to not do aerobatics.

[nsplayr]

Rolling a King Air is abnormal, not unsafe.

So are a bunch of other maneuvers, doesn't make it right. Is doing a barrel roll in your MC-12 going to better accomplished the manned ISR mission? How will the ground force benefit? Could you explain to your SQ/CC why you did it and how it related to the mission? If not you f*cked up, admit it like a man and take it as a learning point.

Anyway.. this thing is being blown way out of proportion...

Dude, blowing it out of proportion would be sending out an FCIF to the entire Air Force. However, don't prove them right by actually coming on here, talking about doing stupid sh*t in the jet, and then being either too stubborn or too dumb to admit that perhaps what happened was not warranted and represents exactly what the AF is trying to prevent in writing said memo on flight discipline.

[BitteEinBit]

A rated U.S. Air Force pilot who knows that the term describing advanced flying maneuvers is different from the one describing the act of prancing around a stage in a leotard. Yup, nerd alert.

The nerd alert wasn't knowing the difference...it was for taking the time to search for photos to point out an infraction that no one really gives a f*ck about. Yes, nerd alert. But I like your style...point well made. I imagine you felt the same satisfaction as a chief in the desert pointing out that my socks aren't in regs... I think I'll survive as a rated officer in the USAF either way...

Dude, blowing it out of proportion would be sending out an FCIF to the entire Air Force. However, don't prove them right by actually coming on here, talking about doing stupid sh*t in the jet, and then being either too stubborn or too dumb to admit that perhaps what happened was not warranted and represents exactly what the AF is trying to prevent in writing said memo on flight discipline

I am particularly worried that there are people out there who don't think this was wrong because it "doesn't say anywhere that I can't do it." It bothers me more that it was done in the AOR when assets on the ground may be counting on that MWS for critical mission support. The 'attitude' out there that if the Air Force doesn't specifically tell me I can't do it, I should be able to do it should worry you too. Again, I don't know the whole story, but I can't think of a reason to have flown an aircraft that way. If you think it was ok, then you are focused on something other than the mission in my opinion.

Edited December 12, 2011 by BitteEinBit

[soultrain]

So are a bunch of other maneuvers, doesn't make it right. Is doing a barrel roll in your MC-12 going to better accomplished the manned ISR mission? How will the ground force benefit? Could you explain to your SQ/CC why you did it and how it related to the mission? If not you f*cked up, admit it like a man and take it as a learning point.

Dude, blowing it out of proportion would be sending out an FCIF to the entire Air Force. However, don't prove them right by actually coming on here, talking about doing stupid sh*t in the jet, and then being either too stubborn or too dumb to admit that perhaps what happened was not warranted and represents exactly what the AF is trying to prevent in writing said memo on flight discipline.

Shack. Flying airplanes is "fun" enough when you're inside the 11-2XXXv3 parameters...showing your ass & willingly disregarding the rules is foolish. Be afraid of the guys who see nothing wrong with that or, worse, gotten away with it and still see nothing wrong with it. CJ-6A...your flippant attitude is disappointing. I hope you're not in a position to influence the younger dudes.

[contraildash]

From the B300/300C POH Page 2-16:

"The Model B300 and B300C are Commuter Category Airplanes. Acrobatic (yes that's what it says) maneuvers, including spins, are prohibited."

If you are of the opinion that rolling the MC-12 is not unsafe and this whole thing is being blown out of proportion, I will never get in an aircraft with you.

[Homestar]

"Acrobatic" is an FAA category of aircraft (governed by FAR part 23).

http://www.access.gp...14cfr23_11.html

"Acrobatic" stuff is also something acrobats do...

Aerobatic is probably a more appropriate adjective, however, so the point is well-taken.

Edited December 12, 2011 by Homestar

[bucky60k]

Sounds like a typical Air Force (We tell you what you CAN and CAN NOT do) vs. Navy mentality (We only tell you what you CAN NOT do) argument.

Anyways, with the current Air Force mindset legends like Bob Hoover or Chuck Yeager would all have their wings clipped. Sad.

Edited December 12, 2011 by bucky60k

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

Sounds like a typical Air Force (We tell you what you CAN and CAN NOT do) vs. Navy mentality (We only tell you what you CAN NOT do) argument.

Anyways, with the current Air Force mindset legends like Bob Hoover or Chuck Yeager would all have their wings clipped. Sad.

Something tells me youre not actually an Air Force pilot. I've never heard a real pilot use that AF vs Navy line.

[HeloDude]

IMHBAO, this seems like an over reaction to something that could've been handled in the SQ/DOs office.

Rainman shacked this one--if it's a problem with a specific crew, then handle it accordingly with that crew. If it's a problem with a specific squadron or airframe community, then handle it accordingly. I'm tired of seeing emails, FCIF's, etc telling me what to do (or not do) when we're already supposed to know what to do. This is nothing more than leadership trying to cover their ass.

[Seriously]

Shack. Flying airplanes is "fun" enough when you're inside the 11-2XXXv3 parameters...showing your ass & willingly disregarding the rules is foolish. Be afraid of the guys who see nothing wrong with that or, worse, gotten away with it and still see nothing wrong with it. CJ-6A...your flippant attitude is disappointing. I hope you're not in a position to influence the younger dudes.

I think you mean shining your ass, but whatever. I don't think anyone in this thread "sees nothing wrong" with what those guys may or may not have done. Hell yeah it was dumb.

What's disappointing in this thread is the holier-than-thou attitude and eagerness to crucify these guys and destroy their careers when something like this should be dealt with a royal ass kicking at the sq/do level.

[CJ-6A]

CJ-6A...your flippant attitude is disappointing. I hope you're not in a position to influence the younger dudes.

It's not a flippant attitude. This shouldn't have been blown up.. whatever happened to things being handled within a squadron? Guess that was a couple generations ago? You all are crying to lynch these dudes... come on.

From the B300/300C POH Page 2-16:

"The Model B300 and B300C are Commuter Category Airplanes. Acrobatic (yes that's what it says) maneuvers, including spins, are prohibited."

If you are of the opinion that rolling the MC-12 is not unsafe and this whole thing is being blown out of proportion, I will never get in an aircraft with you.

http://www.ntsbbar.org/getart.asp?ID=19903

While not entirely related, it does show that the NTSB/FAA has mixed feelings about different categories doing aerobatics.

How, exactly, is rolling a King Air unsafe? Any proof of that versus any other flight regime? I'll buy that it's a bad decision and abnormal in the current climate... but unsafe?

[bucky60k]

Something tells me youre not actually an Air Force pilot. I've never heard a real pilot use that AF vs Navy line.

Well hate to disappoint you but I am a "REAL" Air Force pilot and I did just use that line

[soultrain]

It's not a flippant attitude. This shouldn't have been blown up.. whatever happened to things being handled within a squadron? Guess that was a couple generations ago? You all are crying to lynch these dudes... come on.

"B-B-But Robin Olds would've..."...yeah, I know. Welcome to 50 years later. Try telling the airline Captain conducting your future FedEx interview why you think a willing breach of flight discipline is "no biggie...wasn't unsafe, so who cares?" See how far that gets you. Grow up and set the bar high...it's there for a reason.

[LJDRVR]

If this would have happened 30 or 40 years ago, it would have been a non-event. Besides, there's nothing structurally unsafe about rolling a King Air. Anyone want to take a shot a Bob Hoover for not having flight discipline in his Air Force career.... or any other pilot of his generation? This should have been a non-event.

Here's the thing: a whole lot of those guys are dead now, and not of natural causes. Here's something else: Bob is an anomaly. Not too many folks around are anywhere near that talented, with nothing close to the opportunity to get that type of flying hard-coded into our DNA that Bob did at a very young age. And to top it all off? Bob is the first guy to tell you how lucky he is to be here. How many accidents did he survive?

Nobody is talking about structurally unsafe. We're talking about the small portion of the pilot population permanently safety wired to the "stupid" position when it comes to risk management. They are a danger to themselves and others. Pretty sure Mr. Hoover would tell you something similar.

You and I aren't Bob and it's not 1944. Shining your ass in somebody else's' airplane is not acceptable. The AF gives you a lot of rope as A/C. Just enough to hang yourself.

PS - Here's a trivia question:

What do a Boeing 707-300, a Beech 1900A and a Sabreliner 65 have in common?

Edited December 12, 2011 by LJDRVR

[Jaded]

Try telling the airline Captain conducting your future FedEx interview why you think a willing breach of flight discipline is "no biggie...wasn't unsafe, so who cares?"

Nobody is saying that. Your argument is a straw man.

If it's a single crew who made a poor decision, they should have handled it at a lower level. Apparently the Vice Chief of Staff believes that a lack of discipline is pervasive throughout the entire flying community. His evidence: a single event. Kind of stupid in my opinion.

[Homestar]

When you say "handled at the lowest level" do you mean a stern talking to in the DO's office or an FEB? Honest question.

[guineapigfury]

How, exactly, is rolling a King Air unsafe? Any proof of that versus any other flight regime? I'll buy that it's a bad decision and abnormal in the current climate... but unsafe?

Well, contraildash already provided you with the quote from the aircraft manual that says "no". I was out there with him, so I know he's not making this shit up. Also, the MC-12 doesn't even have a g-meter, so how do you know you stayed in limits during a maneuver? Maybe the seat of your pants is that finely tuned? Seriously, aerobatics in a T-tail crew airplane with all kinds of shit poking out of the fuselage and a wierd CG when the manual says "no aerobatics"? AF wide FCIF may be overkill, but if 2 dudes actually barrel-rolled a McDozen then they are in the wrong. And bad on the backenders for not raising hell when the pilots started talking about doing this nonsense.

Edited December 12, 2011 by guineapigfury

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

Nobody is saying that. Your argument is a straw man.

If it's a single crew who made a poor decision, they should have handled it at a lower level. Apparently the Vice Chief of Staff believes that a lack of discipline is pervasive throughout the entire flying community. His evidence: a single event. Kind of stupid in my opinion.

I'd be willing the alleged MC-12 incident is more likely the straw that broke the camel's back after a series of incidents (to include the C-17 mishap and the flyover buffoonery)

Edited December 12, 2011 by Napoleon_Tanerite