Guest BrewMaster Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 So I was on a xc the other day, and the direct route of my flight put me through an MOA. While enroute, I was notified by center that the MOA was active with two aircraft(turned out to be 2 B-1's). So I said copy that, we'll keep an eye out. For me to avoid this MOA it would have been about a 20-25 minute detour to the west or a 15 minute detour around a restricted area to the east, so I figure what the hell, these planes are the sh!t and I'm sure the pilots are profficient enough not to care about a littel POS 172 passing through(perfectly legal) So I decide to keep flying through with eyes open. We see the two B-1's from quite a distance and had them in sight for a while. As we keep going, the B-1's ended up flying about 1000' below us and about 1 off our nose. So I thought Sweet, cuz it was! So anyways, we go on our merry way, chugging away in our 172. We finish our xc with no problems. When I get to work at the FBO this morning, my buddy tells me that after I left the airport the other day, one of the B-1 pilots called the FBO and was pissed that I flew through the MOA. I guess he called the FSS and got my flight plan and tail number and traced it back to the FBO. He talked to my friend and in what I'm assuming typical fashion proceeded to explain the intracasies(sp.) of the B-1's systems and why flying through was a bad idea because we could have been toast. Ok, I said, I can understand that, but that doesn't really seem like a good reason to call and be, what my friend said, a "dick" about it. What I'm gettin at is, if it is such a big deal, then why is it ok to fly through hot MOA's when the military pilots hate it? Before someone nips at my ass, I will say that I can understand what the pilot is saying and the speed, and complexity of the B-1 are pretty intense. But I am one little 172, and these guys are flying a B-1 with some of the most sophisticated avionics known to man. I'm assuming they saw me coming from quite a ways a way. I also understand that taking a detour is a safe option. But I just don't feel the pilot should have the right to call up the FSS and get my tail number and tell my buddy I was wrong when I was completely legal. Like I said, I understand what he is saying but I just figured they didn't mind the extra practice, and I was also assuming they had a pair of nuts... Thoughts, comments........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 (edited) So I was on a xc the other day, and the direct route of my flight put me through an MOA. While enroute, I was notified by center that the MOA was active with two aircraft(turned out to be 2 B-1's). So I said copy that, we'll keep an eye out. For me to avoid this MOA it would have been about a 20-25 minute detour to the west or a 15 minute detour around a restricted area to the east, so I figure what the hell, these planes are the sh!t and I'm sure the pilots are profficient enough not to care about a littel POS 172 passing through(perfectly legal) So I decide to keep flying through with eyes open. We see the two B-1's from quite a distance and had them in sight for a while. As we keep going, the B-1's ended up flying about 1000' below us and about 1 off our nose. So I thought Sweet, cuz it was! So anyways, we go on our merry way, chugging away in our 172. We finish our xc with no problems. When I get to work at the FBO this morning, my buddy tells me that after I left the airport the other day, one of the B-1 pilots called the FBO and was pissed that I flew through the MOA. I guess he called the FSS and got my flight plan and tail number and traced it back to the FBO. He talked to my friend and in what I'm assuming typical fashion proceeded to explain the intracasies(sp.) of the B-1's systems and why flying through was a bad idea because we could have been toast. Ok, I said, I can understand that, but that doesn't really seem like a good reason to call and be, what my friend said, a "dick" about it. What I'm gettin at is, if it is such a big deal, then why is it ok to fly through hot MOA's when the military pilots hate it? Before someone nips at my ass, I will say that I can understand what the pilot is saying and the speed, and complexity of the B-1 are pretty intense. But I am one little 172, and these guys are flying a B-1 with some of the most sophisticated avionics known to man. I'm assuming they saw me coming from quite a ways a way. I also understand that taking a detour is a safe option. But I just don't feel the pilot should have the right to call up the FSS and get my tail number and tell my buddy I was wrong when I was completely legal. Like I said, I understand what he is saying but I just figured they didn't mind the extra practice, and I was also assuming they had a pair of nuts... Thoughts, comments........ I haven't been operational yet, but... I think the 172 is probably more stealthy that you realize. It's tiny, not a whole lot of metal, and it's speed is very low, so a notch filter could dimsiss it as "noise". Not only that, but I imagine the B-1 guys felt a little differently about "extra practice" if it means cutting of the target leg of their low-level to avoid you. I don't know why it's legal to fly through a hot MOA. I think it's pretty dumb, myself. I wouldn't do it, and I think you should probably exercise some caution instead of doing it again. Edited June 7, 2007 by pawnman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickhistory Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 It's great to be 'right,' but it would suck as you experienced that thought as the hood ornament of a B-1 who didn't see you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BrewMaster Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 Like I said, I understand what the pilot was saying. In retrospect I wish I would have flown around and next time I will, but it is "legal," just not necessarily "right." Excluding flying around, we exercised what I felt to be a lot of caution. Anyways, if or when it becomes illegal, what good is calling up an FBO and yelling at Joe GA, when they should be talking to the higher ups. Don't get me wrong, I have the upmost respect for anyone flying these jets , and I even hope to be flying one someday, but I weighed my options before going in and chose not to fly around, I guess I just didn't expect this to happen, and I figured a 172 wouldn't be as big of a threat to a B-1 as it is. Just have to chalk it up to experience... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slacker Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 I think you'd be suprised how unsophisticated the avionics are in a B-1. A B-1 pilot could probably enlighten you. However, it might be easy for you chugging along at 110kts to pick out two enormous B-1s in the MOA, however, the B-1s are moving pretty fast and a 172 is small, definitely harder for them to pick you up visually. The B-1 crews are also trying to accomplish a mission that is fairly task saturating while in the MOA, now they have to knock it off and look for you. You were legal, but you probably created some @ss pain for the B-1s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 Like I said, I understand what the pilot was saying. In retrospect I wish I would have flown around and next time I will, but it is "legal," just not necessarily "right." Excluding flying around, we exercised what I felt to be a lot of caution. Anyways, if or when it becomes illegal, what good is calling up an FBO and yelling at Joe GA, when they should be talking to the higher ups. Don't get me wrong, I have the upmost respect for anyone flying these jets , and I even hope to be flying one someday, but I weighed my options before going in and chose not to fly around, I guess I just didn't expect this to happen, and I figured a 172 wouldn't be as big of a threat to a B-1 as it is. Just have to chalk it up to experience... FOD is FOD. Whether it's a bird or a 172, taking something through the intake makes the jet handle very poorly. As for calling and bitching out your friend, I agree with you...he should have moved up the chain and bitched out the owner/manager for the FBO...or perhaps you personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M2 Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 I think you'd be suprised how unsophisticated the avionics are in a B-1. A B-1 pilot could probably enlighten you. However, it might be easy for you chugging along at 110kts to pick out two enormous B-1s in the MOA, however, the B-1s are moving pretty fast and a 172 is small, definitely harder for them to pick you up visually. The B-1 crews are also trying to accomplish a mission that is fairly task saturating while in the MOA, now they have to knock it off and look for you. You were legal, but you probably created some @ss pain for the B-1s. Sorry Slacker, did you say something? I was too distracted by your avatar! Cheers! M2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BrewMaster Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 Well I guess I should say sorry, but I'm sure someone would say I'm wrong for that..... It's amazing how a lot of people conveiniently overlook a sentence or two of someone admitting to a fault and find their own interpretations about how much more wrong they are for recognizing it. You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Like I said, misjudgement on my part... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rainman A-10 Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 Don't be a dumbass. Fly above, below or around the MOA. Consider it your contribution to the war effort, which it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FUSEPLUG Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 (edited) Well I guess I should say sorry, but I'm sure someone would say I'm wrong for that..... Like I said, misjudgement on my part... You shouldn't be sorry and you made no misjudgement. Until MOA's become Prohibited or Restricted, you have every right in the world to be there. You did everything that you are legally required to do to transit that airspace. Part 1 of FARs defines a MOA as "...airspace established outside Class A airspace to separate or segregate certain non-hazardous military activities from IFR Traffic and to identify for VFR traffic where these activities are conducted." The AIM Section 3-4-5 subpart c says: "Pilots operating under VFR should exercise extreme caution while flying within a MOA when military activity is being conducted." It goes on to say that, "Prior to entering an active MOA, pilots should contact the controlling agency for traffic advisories." In otherwords ATC would have kept you out of there if you were IFR. You were aware of the MOA and even knew it was hot before transiting so you were extra vigilant. That's the whole point of that piece of airspace for VFR traffic. If you weren't receiving Flight Following, maybe you could have called the nearest ATC facility for advisories as stated in the AIM, but that certainly isn't a requirement. I wouldn't go out of my way to start flying around MOA's while VFR. If its a short deviation off course to miss a portion of a MOA, then sure. But if I'm going to burn an extra $50 in fuel (we're talking 172's here) to fly around, then forget it. Edited June 7, 2007 by FUSEPLUG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mambo Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 I'm pretty sure the B-1 doesn't have Air to Air Radar, so unless they have TCAS or WX radar with skin paint capability the only way they are going to see you is with the Mark 1 eyeball. Any Bone guys want to enlighten us on this? You'd be amazed at how unsophisticated military aircraft are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 Fuseplug, have you ever actually been in a military aircraft conducting training in a MOA? I was a GA pilot for many years before I started flying for the AF. I'm completely aware of what "right" a GA aircraft has to fly through an active MOA. I'd NEVER do it (an extra $50 in fuel? Gimme a f*cking break, waah, cry me a river) because I know how having an un-briefed aircraft in a MOA sh*ts on the training you can get. Wanna talk about a waste? When your jet burns $10K of fuel per hour and you can't use it to get any worthwhile training because some GA pilot doesn't want to take the long way around or under a MOA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest monkeypoo Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 I wouldn't go out of my way to start flying around MOA's while VFR. If its a short deviation off course to miss a portion of a MOA, then sure. But if I'm going to burn an extra $50 in fuel (we're talking 172's here) to fly around, then forget it. The choice seems pretty simple. What you risk (your safety/their safety) versus what you gain (50 bones) doesn't add up right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 But I am one little 172, and these guys are flying a B-1 with some of the most sophisticated avionics known to man. I'm assuming they saw me coming from quite a ways a way. Actually, it's probably quite the opposite. They probably did NOT see you coming, and had to turn their attention away from whatever work they were doing to avoid you. Yes, it's legal to fly through a hot MOA...it's just not smart. It's also pretty rude to the guys trying to conduct training (on the extremely limited flying hours they have) in that MOA. What about it rude to you, as someone who is just trying to exercise his priveleges as a GA pilot? Yup, it is a little rude. And it may cost you a little from your pocketbook to avoid the MOA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BrewMaster Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 I think it may be a bit excessive to suggest that I wasted their entire day of training by flying throught the MOA. If this is the biggest mistake I ever make in an airplane, I think I'm doing allright. This seems to have gotten blown way out of proportion and all of a sudden I'm a threat to the entire military and all of their training. I've never endangered anyones life or been a retard behing the yoke, and I certainly don't ever intend to. I'll definately use this as another factor in my decision next time. I'm sure you've never flown through an MOA, ok fine...but I'm sure you've done sh!t that I'd say you were half retarded for doing. Don't pass judgement, just offer constructive suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BrewMaster Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 (edited) I'm not just some dumb@ss wandering through the skies. I'm in college, working and paying for lessons, and flying for a damn good reason, and trying to get all the bang for my buck, and trying to gain licenses and ratings to go on. God forbid, I exercise those priveleges. I did this with none of the malice or ill-intentions you seem to be suggesting. I certainly didn't wake up say "Hey, lets go piss off some B-1 pilots." How retarded does that sound? Edited June 7, 2007 by BrewMaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FUSEPLUG Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 Fuseplug, have you ever actually been in a military aircraft conducting training in a MOA? I was a GA pilot for many years before I started flying for the AF. I'm completely aware of what "right" a GA aircraft has to fly through an active MOA. I'd NEVER do it (an extra $50 in fuel? Gimme a f*cking break, waah, cry me a river) because I know how having an un-briefed aircraft in a MOA sh*ts on the training you can get. Wanna talk about a waste? When your jet burns $10K of fuel per hour and you can't use it to get any worthwhile training because some GA pilot doesn't want to take the long way around or under a MOA. I actually have spent quite a few hours in a military aircraft conducting training in a MOA. I too was a civilian pilot and instructor for 10 years before I ever got into a military aircraft. This isn't a military vs. civilian argument, nor is it an argument of who has the right to what airspace. This is a matter of how the airspace is regulated. I agree 100% that it can be dangerous when civilian traffic starts intermixing with military traffic in these MOAs. God help the poor soul that decides to roll through a Tweet MOA. My point is that there are a lot of high-speed maneuvers going on in these MOA's but for some reason the FAA and the Military see no reason to keep the respective traffic in these areas separate. ATC will vector IFR traffic around a MOA, but the regs set no limits for VFR aircraft. Until such a time that the rules change (and I would support that), GA pilots should continue to use extra vigilance, request flight following, and traverse MOAs as necessary. As for the "50$" comment... you know as well as I do that money plays a much bigger part in the flight planning of a civilian pilot than it does in the military. Sure we have all these fuel-saving initiatives and whatever in the AF, but when some 16 year old kid is trying to knock out his private pilot cross country, that $50 in gas is a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 I'm not just some dumb@ss wandering through the skies. I'm in college, working and paying for lessons, and flying for a damn good reason, and trying to get all the bang for my buck, and trying to gain licenses and ratings to go on. God forbid, I exercise those priveleges. I did this with none of the malice or ill-intentions you seem to be suggesting. I certainly didn't wake up say "Hey, lets go piss off some B-1 pilots." How retarded does that sound? I never suggested any of those things. I was providing some perspective from someone who has also worked my way through college and paid for flying lessons and ratings AND uses MOAs for military training. No, you probably didn't sh*t away their whole day of training. When I flew T-38s, a GA aircraft flying through the MOA could cause a loss of about 30% of the day's training, which is significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BrewMaster Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 I never suggested any of those things. I was providing some perspective from someone who has also worked my way through college and paid for flying lessons and ratings AND uses MOAs for military training. No, you probably didn't sh*t away their whole day of training. When I flew T-38s, a GA aircraft flying through the MOA could cause a loss of about 30% of the day's training, which is significant. Well then it seems that you may have forgotten where you came from. I'm sure you are a very good pilot and have quite a few hours in some killer aircraft (When I flew T-38s), and I have great respect for you and everything you're doing but don't tell me you've never made a decision in an airplane in the past that you regret..... This is what I have done here and I've seemed to have turned into an @sshole who only contributes to the war effort by not flying through MOA's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 I don't know where you got the idea that you were being demonized. I certainly don't think that. You were involved in something that was new to you, and were asking for opinions and information, which I think is highly commendable. I was trying to provide a perspective. You're damn right I've made mistakes and done dumb things in airplanes -- never claimed I have not. Forgotten where I came from? Certainly not. I am an active GA pilot (or I was, at least, before I PCSd to the UK recently) so I know that there are two sides to the story. I am actually irritated that there often is a military-vs-GA debate, because we're all pilots and we are all striving for essentially the same goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BrewMaster Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 I don't know where you got the idea that you were being demonized. I certainly don't think that. You were involved in something that was new to you, and were asking for opinions and information, which I think is highly commendable. I was trying to provide a perspective. You're damn right I've made mistakes and done dumb things in airplanes -- never claimed I have not. Forgotten where I came from? Certainly not. I am an active GA pilot (or I was, at least, before I PCSd to the UK recently) so I know that there are two sides to the story. I am actually irritated that there often is a military-vs-GA debate, because we're all pilots and we are all striving for essentially the same goal. The military is what I've got my crosshairs set on, and GA is my only route. I guess I am just frustrated with everything in GA...i.e. fuel prices, possibility of user fees, rental fees, etc. and being told not to fly through a certain area because I'm only GA. Things are a lot different today than only a few years ago, and this just seems like one more thing to add to the @sspain. It would be my dream to fly for the Air Force one day, and this is the only way to get there. I guess I was looking for a simple explanatation as to exactly why the pilots would be mad besides that they are flying a complex aircraft that requires a lot of attention, and I thought I was just innocently passing through. I guess I got the suggestions I was asking for and shouldn't be too upset with some very wise words from some guys who have been around the block, and may know a thing or two that I don't......that's why I asked. I just felt a little battered for an honest action. So I don't really feel I should say sorry for flying through, but I do understand. Thanks, and keep on truckin'...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerkDerka Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 First thing Brew, your first post shows exactly why you should stay out of MOAs. The fact that you don't see the wrong in it, the fact that you think flying "only a 172" somehow degrades the danger, the fact that you think sophisticated avionics have anything to do with it, and your blind assumptions that any other pilot in the sky can see you show how little of the big picture you have. Next time take the 20 minutes to go around, you obviously could use the time. Secondly, check the search function. It has been explained at great length in past threads why GA should stay out of MOAs. HD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerkDerka Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 (edited) I just felt a little battered for an honest action. Get over it. You got the no-shit answers you asked for from guys who know BOTH the military and GA side. We are telling you this for your safety and for ours. Learn the lesson and press on. HD Edited June 7, 2007 by HerkDerka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BrewMaster Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 At least you didn't just restate everything I just said.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 I guess I am just frustrated with everything in GA...i.e. fuel prices, possibility of user fees, rental fees, etc. and being told not to fly through a certain area because I'm only GA. Things are a lot different today than only a few years ago, and this just seems like one more thing to add to the @sspain. You're not the only one frustrated. All I can do is pay my AOPA membership and hope that all of the varied aviation lobbies squash the user fee idea as it is currently fielded. I feel the pain that airspace is slowly being constricted around GA, however so long as there are not user fees to go through controlled airspace, it's really not that big of a deal to use the US Airspace System. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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