Lord Ratner

If it sets off a war immediately, probably not. If it doesn't start an immediate war, but forces Europe into regaining control over their energy resources before the inevitable war comes (and it neutralizes the largest destabilizing force in the middle east), then probably so.

Not quite. But yes, ours will be most insulated. It would be more appropriate to say that the mismanagement of their own economies at the shrine of globalization has put most of these countries in the position that any disruption can be a catastrophe. Because of this, we can't just smash the country that has been a sworn event for decades. Well, we can, but it'll be ugly.

I just read the summary, but didn't the police leave him to his protest?

Dibs on the trash can, or on the orange and blue corrugated metal mesh waste receptacle?

We're making two different points. I agree with you entirely that focusing only on military targets will not destroy the regime, because the regime is not motivated purely by a capacity of the wage war. Assuming that we are not going to occupy the country and implement regime change that way, which we aren't, then the only other option is to create the conditions by which the Iranian people overthrow the current leadership. Obviously they hoped that by weakening the irgc militarily and by killing the entire leadership chain, that would give the Iranian people enough motivation to re-attempt a coup. That failed, at least for the time being. So that leaves the only other means by which the Iranian people can be "motivated." Economic catastrophe. Bombing Kharg Island effectively ends the economic capacity of Iran. Whether or not the irgc is overthrown at that point is irrelevant. Iran has no way to generate money outside of its production of fossil fuels. No money, no government. It's happened many times in the past and it will happen happen many more times in the future. We could do this by continuing the blockade indefinitely, but that leaves the strategy up to the whims of the politicians. Destroying something that can't be rebuilt for years is rather final. However doing so would probably result in the greatest economic catastrophe since the Great depression, for Europe and Asia, and probably Africa too. I'm of the mind that this economic event cannot be forestalled indefinitely, but destroying Kharg Island would start it immediately in all likelihood. It would be enough to start a war between the US and China if it wasn't for the fact that China is so reliant on Iranian oil that they wouldn't be able to afford the war until they secured other sources. Obviously the Trump administration doesn't want this, maybe because of the mid terms, maybe because they have other international ambitions. I don't know and it's possible they don't even know. Trump is mercurial at best .

If our president wasn't obsessed with using the stock market as his favorite indicator of his administration's success, we could end the Iranian problem forever. Just a few sorties to Kharg Island and it won't matter anymore. We keep trying to avoid a global economic catastrophe that is unavoidable, but the longer we push it off, the weaker our allies become through their own suicidal policies.

Read, boy. Read!

Shack. 4 definitely, 5 maybe, and 2 exacerbating the whole thing.

Maybe you should read the actual debates the framers of the 14th amendment had. Neither the declaration of Independence nor the original Constitution addresses this situation, which is exactly why the 14th amendment had to be written. Thank God the founding fathers knew that we would one day have you to be the sole interpreter of their wisdom 🤣😂 I'm not sure how you can have an ad hominem against a political group, but okay. It also happens to be true. As far as the forum for identifying yourself as a citizen, I will accept the least formal and most rapid forum that results in a negligible number of improper citizen deportations. Since you've been unable to identify a single recent case of an American citizen being improperly deported, we could just assume that it hasn't happened. As for the historical cases, those all sound about right. I especially liked the part where the deported citizens got hundreds of thousands of dollars in compensation for the government screw up. I'd be happy to 10x that penalty for any citizen involved in a similar miscarriage of Justice. That's not justification to tear it all down. There will always be fuck ups. Until then, from the time you are approached by the authorities (first opportunity), to the time you spend in a detention center awaiting processing with translators available (second opportunity), to an informal meeting with an immigration officer where you are allowed to make your case with phone and Internet access (third opportunity), to the time it takes to board your deportation flight (fourth opportunity), that would be plenty. But again this is all just an exercise false ignorance. You know damn well that proving citizenship isn't a problem. This is functionally identical to the voter ID debates that have been held in such bad faith by the left that it is almost beyond comprehension. It takes the same level of fake stupidity to believe that black people in America don't have access to identification as it does to believe that immigrants don't have access to proof of legal status. Do you have any immigrants in your family? My mother still has her green card number memorized. This just isn't a thing.

What is confusing? Government screw-ups are not justification for abandoning government action. This used to be a pretty standard policy of the left, considering how many of their programs were grossly mismanaged and abused. None of our laws were written for the situation we are in now. It was never a consideration that tens of millions of people who have no right to be in this country would nevertheless be here. The protections afforded to American citizens, and others legally present within our borders, cannot be extended to every person on the planet. It is not hard to prove citizenship. Neither for the government nor the accused party. That there are a few dozen cases out of literally millions is evidence that this is not a real problem, any more than a few aircraft mishaps out of millions of yearly flights are indicative of a widespread aviation safety threat. The recharacterization of deportation as some sort of punitive action similar to incarceration is the exact trick being used to slow down the process for the ultimate goal of preventing deportation entirely. Same with the refusal of an asylum claim. If you get on a plane to America without a Visa or passport, you are not allowed to leave the airport until you can be seen in front of a judge. You are put on the next flight back to your country. We have the ability for the vast, vast majority of illegal immigrants to quickly confirm their illegal status and return them to their country of origin. Since the problem has been allowed to grow to the tens of millions, there will unsurprisingly be some mistakes along the way. If those mistakes are measured in a fraction of a fraction of a percent, I don't have any problem with that. Once again, show me the American citizens being deported or denied entry back into the country by an intentional process and we will have some sort of agreement. But you can't show that. If you believe the people here illegally have a right to the resources of our country, we just have a fundamental disagreement. I do not believe they have any claim to medical treatment, education, assistance programs, or voting rights. Along those same lines, I do not believe they have any claim to our judicial system, unless of course we are attempting to incarcerate, fine, or otherwise restrict that human being from anything other than their unlawful presence within our borders. Once again, it is simply intentionally naive or disingenuous to act as though we can't figure out who the vast majority of the illegal aliens are. They didn't come here from Mars. They are overwhelmingly from countries south of our border that have fully functioning governments with records systems that track their citizens just as we track ours. The left is just trying to make this about something it isn't because ultimately what they want is for them to stay.

Don't conflate me with other people on this forum. I think that cop thread is a bunch of absolute nonsense. A few bad apples in an otherwise incredibly functioning system, but because the algorithm knows what makes you angry, once you go down that rabbit hole all you'll ever see are cops abusing people's rights. It's a waste of time, as are most exercises dystopian fantasy. I don't care about the school bombing either. Shit happens in war. If A single government official got on the news and high-fived each other and talked about how awesome it was to kill a bunch of little girls (you know, like the Palestinians do), then I'd have a problem. But since I'm a grown-up who served in the military, I know that collateral damage, even mistakenly, sometimes happens. Only children assume that you can build a system free from error or tragedy. Even more ironically, all this hand ringing over the girls school in a country that would happily slaughter my daughter as a heretic if they had half the chance. Don't forget if any of those girls had grown up to be raped in Iran, she'd have an honor killing to look forward to, if she was able to escape the Iranian justice system with proof that she wasn't a willing participant. Spare me. And as far as being disingenuous goes, that's pretty rich. Focusing on the negligible number of citizens who have been swept up in a solution (and not deported) that has been a long time coming is just a distraction. Just be honest, you don't want illegal aliens deported. That's fine, you are allowed a political opinion as much as anyone else, but trying to make it a morality play by over hyping the anomalies because you know that the core argument has no foundation in law, history, or morality, is weak tea.

Nice try. First two links have no deportations. Third link has no names, so the circumstances of the deportation cannot be determined, but every similar named case has been exactly the same. The illegal alien parents of a birthright citizen child(ren) elected to take their citizen children with them back to the country of their deportation. Not the same, and you know it. In fact there's already federal court precedence that removes qualified immunity from law enforcement officials that do not promptly release someone after proving their citizenship. Morales v. Chadbourne But it is a very compelling reason to join the rest of the world and the framers of the 14th amendment in abolishing the nonsense of birthright citizenship.

If you have found any, I would love to see a verified claim that a citizen was deported accidentally. I have seen not one single instance, but even if there was one instance, that would not be relevant. If we had maybe 10 instances or 100 instances, that would start to matter. We're talking about tens of millions of people, and accident rate of 0 is not logical in any context, especially this context. Again, we are not talking about imprisonment, execution, asset seizure, or any other punitive government actions. Those absolutely demand due process. Being deported is simply fixing the glitch. This is one of those issues that doesn't require much research, because you know factually that if there were verified cases of law-abiding citizens being shipped off to El Salvador, you would never hear the end of it from one side of the political spectrum, just like when an immigrant murders and innocent woman on the subway, you never hear the end of it from the other side. So far the left has a bit of a problem producing any evidence of the threats they seem so adamant to defend us against.

Do you really think that this is just about figuring out whether or not the people are illegals or not? You think that's what the deportation judges are doing, looking for clues to figure out if they accidentally scooped up a citizen? Come on, you can't really think that, right? You think that in 2026, with the most unfathomably complex surveillance tools ever imagined by man, the real problem we are having is figuring out who is a citizen and who isn't? Exactly how many citizens are being accidentally deported? You ever met someone who had a hard time proving that they were a citizen? Lol, talk about bad faith.

I will never understand the argument that people in a country illegally should have a months- or years-long right to protest their removal. Are you here legally? If no, then you are deported. Deportation is not imprisonment or punishment, it is merely the cessation of violation. Where's the logical end to this nonsense? Should visa applicants in Zimbabwe have a right to "due process" if they are denied a green card? If not, why is it any different for the Zimbabwean who snuck in? If we are trying to give them prison sentences, then yeah, due process includes the right to a fair trial. But if we're just returning intruders to their rightful place, due process should include only food and water for the journey home.