Radio etiquette

[Toasty]

Coming from the civi side...

There's an NDB approach to a local field that juts out diagonally over the Atlantic. The standard approach takes you probably 3 miles offshore, and down to 1600'. Which by itself is already fairly low for being that far out over water, but its not really a big deal. It gets hairy when you've got 4 aircraft shooting the same approach being stacked up and out over the ocean. I was flying a 172 under the hood getting some crazy vectors and just following orders while my IP kept his SA up for the both of us. Glancing at the GPS I could see we were pushing 10 miles offshore at 1600'. At that point you start second guessing your IO-360 engine and your religion. We turn inbound, and immediately approach clears us down to the MDA of 500-odd feet. Uneasily I look at my IP with a "Do I REALLY want to do that right now?" puppy dog look on my face, and he comes back with "Just keep it here for a bit...and pedal faster." Never liked that approach.

[Guest rotorhead]

Old Man Rant Switch - ON.

Today I administered an instrument flight evaluation, during which the examinee told clearance delivery "Ghost 77, clearance on request." I asked him later why he used that phrase/what he thought that meant...he said he was told to use it at UPT by his IPs...

If you are a UPT IP doing this...WHY?

Clearance on request is not a pilot phrase, it is a controller phrase...typically used when a single controller is busy doing other things (tower, ground, clearance, coffee, cleaning woman), and letting the pilot (who has not called yet) know that "hey, whenever you're ready, I have your clearance ready for you whenever you want to ask for it." The pilot initial callup phrase is "Ghost 77, IFR Yomama."

I probably wouldn't have brought up this trivia to him, but the examinee used several other useless terms on this single eval:

No "clearance on request" - it's an ATC thing.

No "ready to copy" - you'd better be ready to copy, or you shouldn't be calling the agency.

No "copy" as a response - affirmative, wilco, roger, as appropriate..."copy" is a term for cops and truckers on CBs.

No "with you" - you're obviously with them, you're on their frequency, talking to them.

No "at this time" - everything is assumed to be at this time, unless specified for later.

No "this is" - if you use your callsign, it's obvious "this is."

No "aaaaaannnnnddd" - self explanatory gayness.

None of these terms are in the Pilot Controller Glossary.

And for you HAR tanker folk: you can let your radio operator (sorry, I forgot the PC title for 'em) know that they don't need to end EVERY transmission with "how copy?" I'd be elated to never hear the "how copy?" (I'll let you know if you're unreadable) but I really don't need it on the 5th transmission.

Old Man Rant Switch - OFF.

Any other radio phrase buffoonery that folks want to add?

This is a slight thread revival from "Guys who say ......"aaaaaaaaaaaand" to start their radio call" which got hijacked.

[Guest Ghost63]

Hmmm, heard a few of those and some don't seem so bad.

Ready to copy - May be field specific. Though I'm sure it's happened, I don't recall ever hearing anything BUT "ready to copy" from the aircraft. Of course, when clearance says "advise when ready to copy," I dunno what else you would say.

Hear "copy" quite a bit - doesn't mean it's correct. Much less annoying than "at this time."

Rants are fun!

[Guest flecth033]

Have to chalk it up to bad instructor habits I guess, I've been told to say "with you" and "ready to copy" by more than one instructor (GA ofcourse). Speaking of which, if you look in this months flight training magazine there is an article on flying into controlled airports that specifically says use "ready to copy". I guess bad habits are hard to break and nobody has said anything till now. I will change my phrases and if someone corrects me I'll tell'em to fuk off, Rotorhead told me not to say that

[ 16. February 2006, 01:26: Message edited by: flyguy ]

[Cooter]

My ersonal favorite when it comes to radio discipline is on secure nets. When you fly over...for instance...Iraq or Afghanistan guys key the mike get the bep rush and then just start to ramble on and on. BEEP...kssssshhhhhhh..."uhh, yeah I'm here walking the dog and oh yeah i had breakfast." Radio speak is an acquired taste i'll grant you that but when you're alking you want it as clear and concise as possible. Yo always get guys talking about the weather and so on and so forth. Nothing better than a "BREAK...BREAK" ao you can actually get some useful sh%t out on the radio. Just my experience but there's lots 'O' folks out there that need to learn that radios are for pasing mission essential info, not the friggin' dinner menu.

Cooter...and his .02

Far east bound baby

[Toro]

Rotorhead,

Good points - I am guilty of 2-3 of those on a regular basis. I'm so old and dumb now that I doubt I'll be able to change my ways, though.

[ClearedHot]

Originally posted by Toro:

Rotorhead,

Good points - I am guilty of 2-3 of those on a regular basis. I'm so old and dumb now that I doubt I'll be able to change my ways, though.

"2"

[Guest Brewdog]

As far as "ready to copy" goes, I would say it would be appropriate when the controller says "callsign, I have your clearance, advise ready to copy." That's the way I learned it at my first facility and I still use that phrase to this day. I suppose for the sake of brevity the controller could say "Clearance available." but then again what I'd probably still hear "ready to copy" from the pilot. I guess you could do worse, than saying copy. It's better than "come on back!" :D On a rant of my own, It's irritating when guys check in and say who their calling twice but I'll live. I just get the urge to reply twice.Annnnnnnnnnnnd this post is already about 10 lines too long. :D

[zrooster99]

No "clearance on request" - it's an ATC thing

The funny thing is that I used to call Clearance Delivery with "IFR to Waco" and I actually had a couple LSI sim instructors tell me that was wrong and teach me the "clearance on request" phraseology...

[HerkDerka]

Awesome post Rotor. They're nothing I hate more when I'm practicing good radio discipline and actually sounding like a military pilot, but some other numbnut calls up and sounds like a friggin airline driver.

I'm ok with "ready to copy" since clnc always tells you "advise ready to copy" anyway. But for the love of God everyone in the AF needs to stop saying "copy" after every transmission. It drives me crazy when people who aren't used to talking on the radios (AMCC, CP, TALCE) always give you a "how copy".

The "Aaaaaaaaaaaand" also drives me nuts. Think about what you are going to say and then say it.

HD

[Guest Absolutlyfly]

No "with you" - you're obviously with them, you're on their frequency, talking to them

But when you have an inital call to someone that is monitoring more then one freq, it tells them exactly where you are calling from. 'Callsign, is with you on 122.3'

Maybe it is just me though

[Scooter14]

Originally posted by Swingin:

-Flight leads who check their flight in on every single frequency

Good point. Why on earth would you want to make sure your flight is up on the right freqs. I'd just rather switch freqs and start talking so the other two tankers behind me monitoring the 8 ship of Vipers on Comm 1, the Command Post controller who won't shut up on Comm 2 and Boston Center on Comm 3 are completely devoid of any SA wahtsoever. It saves lead from actually having any responsibility at all. Brilliant!

[Guest sleepy]

The controller who was also my CFII told me to say for clearances, "Atlanta Center, N***** awaiting IFR clearance from X to Y" Some of them, he said, are stupid. Example: I went missed once after a practice ILS, called approach and asked for a full localizer approach. The dummy told me there was no localizer approach and that I would have to shoot the ILS again. A technicality, but still...

The thing that annoys me is unicom traffic calls at uncontrolled fields. Too many folks yak yak yak and don't look or listen. I almost got plowed over once even when I was telling the guy he was about to run over me. And yes, I had the right of way.

Is it necessary to state that you are communicating via GCO when doing so?

[HerkDerka]

Originally posted by Matt Damon:

But when you have an inital call to someone that is monitoring more then one freq, it tells them exactly where you are calling from. 'Callsign, is with you on 122.3'

Still gumming up the radios though. "Center, Herky 01, Level 200." That's it. If for some reason you have to announce your freq: "Center, Herky 01, level 200 on 245.8"

Clear, concise, brief.

HD

[Guest Hoser]

Originally posted by Swingin:

and if after that they didn't make it to any freq to which you pushed them, you correct it on victor (or aux for our twin-tailed friends) and debrief it later.

You're complaining about checking in on every freq, but your example is using "push" which is going to require a check on the freq anyway.

Am I missing something?

Hoser

[Guest Xtndr50boom]

Originally posted by Matt Damon:

But when you have an inital call to someone that is monitoring more then one freq, it tells them exactly where you are calling from. 'Callsign, is with you on 122.3'

It doesn't matter for initial call. If you're VFR, the agency accepting you into their airspace will tell the agency handing you off what freq they want you on anyway, using their override phone. IFR, it's more or less automatic, but the agency handing off knows what freq to put you on depending on where you'll be in the accepting agency's airspace. If you're on a congested freq and ATC tells you to switch to another, it's not a bad idea, but still unnecessary

[ 16. February 2006, 11:58: Message edited by: Xtndr50boom ]

[Scooter14]

Swingin,

I think I'm missing something, too, unless you guys are using visual signals like in Tweets.

My bovine aircraft is unable to do visual freq changes, so we have to say it over the radio. Even if we do brief "push" vs. "go", I'm still gonna check the flight in before I make the radio call for the flight.

[Chuck17]

Im not (granted its always briefed prior to step that I will push the flight, no check ins).

If I push you and you dont go, you suck. Debriefed item, I'll call you out on interplane.

At least thats how its done in the 17 world. Others will differ.

While we're at it, if youre a command post guy and you say the words "I say again" or "Be advised" more than once per conversation with the same aircraft, kill yourself.

Chuck

[ 16. February 2006, 14:22: Message edited by: ChuckFlys17s ]

[Guest KoolKat]

Originally posted by rotorhead:

Clearance on request is not a pilot phrase, it is a controller phrase...The pilot initial callup phrase is "Ghost 77, IFR Yomama."

OK...so I say "IFR to lake tittycaca," and be says "Roger, your clearance is on request, advise when ready to copy." so far, so good...

Then I say, "with you, ready to copy, copy, how copy at this time, over." no, no...

What do think I should say, if not "ready to copy." I think I might actually say something differnt everytime, from "ready to copy" to "(CS,) go ahead."

I'm all for being professional, but it's just two dudes sitting on the ground talking, right?

I see the same mucked up thing when calling up tower, "IFR release," "Ready for T/O," "IFR to lake tittycaca." I don't know which one is right...

BENDY

[FUSEPLUG]

Originally posted by rotorhead:

Clearance on request is not a pilot phrase, it is a controller phrase...typically used when a single controller is busy doing other things (tower, ground, clearance, coffee, cleaning woman), and letting the pilot (who has not called yet) know that "hey, whenever you're ready, I have your clearance ready for you whenever you want to ask for it." The pilot initial callup phrase is "Ghost 77, IFR Yomama."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that "Clearance on Request" from ATC means that they are actually coordinating with Center (or whatever higher power) to work you into the system. The controller is telling you that he/she is still awaiting your clearance so he/she can issue it to you. Once they have it they will come back with something like "I have your clearance advise when ready to copy..."

So for you to "request" your clearance at that point is moot because the controller doesn't even have it yet.

That always confused me in Tweets when we'd tell Clearance Delivery, "Tweet 01, clearance on request..." And they'd provide the clearance at that point. Probably not good phraseology to take on to Non-UPT bases/civilian airports.

[Guest Hoser]

Originally posted by Scooter14:

Even if we do brief "push" vs. "go", I'm still gonna check the flight in before I make the radio call for the flight.

"Go": #2 acknowledges the "Go" and a check in on the new freq is accomplished.

"Push": no acknowledge of the "Push" call, check in on the new freq

"Switch": no acknowledge, no check in.

Hoser

[Guest Hydro130]

Hoser,

Well done...

That "push/go/switch" buffoonery was my pet-peeve.

Thanks for the clarification to the newbs...

Cheers, Hydro

[busdriver]

That go/push/switch/roll crap is community specific. In the 60 world, Push means no acknowledgement, no check in; Roll means acknowledge and check in. We don't have the other one.

[Techsan]

Guys saying the phrase..."We got 'em on the fish finder" Another one that gets under my skin...when flying into busy Class B airports, such as ATL, and the copilot is on the radios: "Tower, Josa 123, 2000' on the ILS, full stop" Come on, do you really need to say full stop? I'm sure they're not thinking, hmmm, does this guy want the option?

I always hold my breath anytime I hear the copilot key the mic @ busy airfields/airspace.

[Guest Hydro130]

Originally posted by busdriver:

That go/push/switch/roll crap is community specific.

You are making me deeply regret defending you on a previous post by saying something that stupid.

Those terms are NOT community-specific. And for damn good reason...

WE all have guidance that defines those terms... Look it up.

Cheers, Hydro

[ 16. February 2006, 18:23: Message edited by: Hydro 130 ]