Radio etiquette

[Gravedigger]

I am just curious on what the AF considers to be appropiate radio coms. When I file, I use abbreviated readbacks i.e. N11111 with you 1.1 for 3. And stuff like that. Just curious about what com. procedures you use in the AF.

[Baseops.Net]

None of that stuff is considered appropriate in the Air Force - specifically Pilot Training.

Abreviations are frowned upon. We like the good ole formal, disciplined radios. Emphasis items are students not reading back instructions, clearances, simply responding ROGER or COPY (to instructions)... Pilot Training will have its own pet peeves and radios is probably one of them. Avoid slang, speak clear and concise, and for the 923993th time, READ BACK CLEARANCES! (sorry, day by day by day by day, I have to tell the studs this...)

[Gravedigger]

Darn, I like slang. It helps me feel like a corporate pilot. Oh well, what the AF says, gos. Did you start this website Baseops? If so, I appreciate it. Five stars for you and keep kickin a**.

[Hacker]

Originally posted by c17wannabe:

Darn, I like slang. It helps me feel like a corporate pilot.

So, not sounding like a professional makes you feel more professional?

I don't think that using nonstandard comm makes you sound cool...it makes you sound like a clown.

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

"Darn, I like slang. It helps me feel like a corporate pilot. Oh well, what the AF says, goes"

In the real world, "slang" isn't used as widely as you pointed out there Wannabe, it's just folks trying to "uncongest" the radio's.

It is frowned upon as both Randy and Baseops pointed out. Especially in Class B, and other high density traffic areas, no futal attempts to "feel like a corporate pilot" need be made. Baseops hit it hard on the nail....do what you have been trained to do, and keep the slang to a minimum.

The only time I make non-standard radio calls are the high density places where if you read back a whole clearance, you congest the radios for more important chatter (traffic advisories, etc) or on initial climb and you are both clearing, flying, and running checklists. For instance, if it is someone telling me to switch freq's and the dude is extremely busy, I simply state "Sword 22 switching". Other than that, by the book.

But, it is imperrative for everyone's safety/knowledge that you make appropriate and consise radio calls because other folks are watching out for you, and questionable calls could lead to potential disasters.

[ 25. March 2004, 19:22: Message edited by: C-21 Pilot ]

[Gravedigger]

C-21 Pilot. Atlanta is very congested and I know you already know that. I am not referring to calling the transponder the X-BOX or using non aviation related terms in your message, I am referring to exactly what you said you use, abbreviated readbacks. On climb out and told to contact departure. Correctly, "Atlanta Departure, N15555 is Just off of the McCollum Airport. Currently climbing through one thousand three hundred feet for three thousand feet." While that is correct you would have gotten out maybe the first line.

[Hacker]

Well, call me crazy, but in my opinion the definition of being an aviation professional means that you do things the way you're supposed to. When this comes to radio communication, it means you say what the FAA pilot/controller phraseology book says you do.

The flying community has developed standard terminology so that we can say the precise thing we want to while simultaneously being concise and using as little air time as possible.

Military radio communication, especially, uses brevity terminology to the max extent possible. Some of this you will be taught at UPT, and some of it you will just pick up as you mature as a military pilot. In the fighter community comm is a *very* high interest item and requires a lot of discipline on the part of the user. When we fight, subtle word differences (like "tally" vs "visual") mean drastically different things, so being correct and concise is very important. I look at controller communication much the same way.

If you think that the radios are busy in a big Class B terminal area, you should hear what Strike Prime sounds like out at Red Flag, or even better, what the AWACS freqs sounded like over Iraq during OIF. No matter what military airframe you go to, someday you'll have to operate in one of these frenetic radio environments, and you'll be thankful for your fellow pilots having a tight comm act, just as they will be thankful if you do.

Now, I do understand being brief with clearance readbacks. Do I really need to repeat word-for-word "Eagle 31, turn left 330, maintain 1,800 until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26" when "Eagle 31, left 330, 1800 'till established, cleared the approach" will do? Of course this kind of brevity is okay.

Freestyling it, though, is not needed, nor does it make anyone else -- including the controllers and your fellow pilots on freq -- think you're a pro. I have heard more than one airline captain trying to get cutesy with their radio calls, and I certainly don't think they sound cool. They may be "flying the line" and making a lot more than I am, but a loose act on the radio is nothing that is admirable from my standpoint.

Just as others have said, my feeling is that the "professional" way is how you'll be taught as an Air Force aviator, and how you'll be expected to operate once you're out in the real world.

[Toro]

Disclaimer: I'm talking about military ATC and regs, not civilian

I think a lot of you are confusing slang with minimizing comm. In his original example, C17wannabe's example ("N11111 with you 1.1 for 3") is not slang, is a quicker way of saying, "N1111 is with you passing 1100 for 3000".

Slang is when the controller tells you to set altimeter 30.00 and you reply "Three-balls". As Hacker said, stuff like that sounds unprofessional...and makes you sound like a clown.

Originally posted by c17wannabe:

On climb out and told to contact departure. Correctly, "Atlanta Departure, N15555 is Just off of the McCollum Airport. Currently climbing through one thousand three hundred feet for three thousand feet." While that is correct you would have gotten out maybe the first line.

"Departure, N15555 passing 1300 feet" - 'nuff said.

ATC knows who and where you are and where you're going before you talk to them, there's no need to give your entire flight plan every time you check in with a new controller. Tower talks to departure before they can release you, and ATC controllers talk to each other before they hand you over; each one is passing the next your details.

Along with the brevity concept, realize that there is only one time where you must readback controller instructions verbatim, and that is on ground control. With ATC, the only things you have to repeat with ATC are headings, altitudes, and altimeter settings.

...oh, and if you lower your voice to talk on the radio, you are a tool.

[Chuck17]

Another great discussion! I hope all the hopefulls, wanna/gonna/2-B's are picking up on this... its good poop!

[HerkDerka]

I agree completely Hacker.

Maybe I came off wrong. I meant that radio procedures such as reading back clearances, etc. is not only procedure, but just plain smart as well.

PD

[Guest AirGuardian]

Hey Hacker,

What's with the super low voice crap we've heard from the IFF guys all the time... "Callsign/BASE/GEAR/DOWN!"(under1.5sec) And don't tell me its the O2 drying out your voicebox....? Just playing bud, we always try to mimic IFF guys if we just happen to be at an out-base where they are practicing...our callsigns with base....gear.....down...not sensible since we fly aluminum clouds...Oh my gosh, not professional and we never sound as cool - imagine that! Good stuff, brings back some good laughs!

[Hacker]

Yeah, I do agree that some IFF IPs take comm brevity to the extreme and I agree it sounds kinda stupid sometimes. When I first heard the "Base, Gear, Stop" call in the final turn, I kept thinking, "shouldn't they be saying "*left* base, gear *down*, *full* stop"?

Remember that our student training mission is to slap the white-jet right outta our students, who are sometimes taught some un-fighter like habit patterns by the SUPT training environment. So, consequently some stuff (radio comm is one of them) is a little over the top. I call IFF the "Admin Weapons School" because all that little administrative stuff is what we're *really* teaching, even though the students think we're teaching them dogfighting and bomb-dropping.

[Guest jtpuro]

As a fairly new pilot, I write atis info, transponder codes, taxi info, etc. down on my knee when I talk on the radios. Do you do that in the military? If not, do you just get used to hearing things and reading back?

On a side note, has anyone flown in the Tampa area? It's pretty busy with a class B, a class C, and several Ds all on the same approach/departure freq. It's a pretty scenic area to fly though...

[Hacker]

jtpuro -

I do the same for ATIS, initial IFR clearances, and taxi instructions. Over time, I've developed shorthand so I can write it down and not be too delayed in reading it back.

Since sometimes I'm getting in-flight clarances for splitting off a wingman from a formation, I write those down, too, so I can repeat it to him if he didn't hear it the first time.

[Baseops.Net]

One thing to note,

Most of our discussion has been based around CONUS flying (albeit some congested Class-B airspace...), however, one needs to give serious consideration to Comm habits when flying overseas.

Most likely every pilot will be flying overseas at some point in time - more than likely in the Desert. For those unfamiliar, let me tell you that slang, abreviations, "corporate pilot lingo", etc. won't work. You will probably simply get ignored or penalized (i.e. go direct to Rudesheim and hold).

As far as the controllers in the SWA, other than the UAE guys, there is a serious language barrier. Not to mention the differences in ICAO verbage (dependent on theater) and FAA verbage - for example: "Line Up and Wait" = "In Position and Hold"... Start your good habits early with strict radio discipline - those same Comm habits translate to formation / operational radios too (i.e. interplane, AWACS, drop zone, CCT, etc.)

So, the moral of the story is take seriously what your text books and IPs teach you and remind yourself that there is a whole lot of flying out there beyond UPT...

[C17Driver]

Baseops brings up a very good point on the language barrier. Some controllers (Eastern European mostly) will keep calling you with your clearance until you read it back exactly. For example, they will tell you to "RCH XXX, maintain 350", and until you say "RCH XXX, maintain 350" just as they said it, they will keep calling. If you reply with just your callsign or even your callsign and just altitude, they will tell you again.

[Gravedigger]

I obviously used the wrong phraseology in my initial post. By slang, i meant exactly what all of you agree is practicle. Short, concise, but informative replies. Using "three balls" or "k-view" "x-box" and all that stuff is just confusing. I concede that proper com procedures are important but I wasn't incorrect with my statement that word-for-word readbacks can cause problems for everyone. When you make a short readback with the correct information it also shows that you comprehend the message enough to simplify it.

[Guest rotorhead]

Great discussion. My 2 cents additional:

Many of the "anal" pharaseology in the USAF stems directly from incidents/accidents. For example, PILOT HAS THE CONTROLS (in the HH-60 community) cannot be substituted with slack like, I'VE GOT IT, I'VE GOT THE JET, ROGER, YEP, YOU'VE GOT IT, etc. There are joint pubs specifying brevity codes, which you better know when you fly in a 50-ship package of multiservice multinational strike, gas, recce, CAS, SARCAP, and RESCORT supporting a CSAR. TALLY is not VISUAL is not CONTACT is not PADLOCKED, etc. Similarly, ROGER is not WILCO, is not AFFIRMATIVE, is not COPY, etc. If you want to see excitement, let the phrase NO JOY slip out over the radio.

[LJDRVR]

C17wannabe,

You've heard some excellent advice here. I've got to take issue with your corporate pilot comment. Dude, using the slang you describe in the cockpit of any corpaorate aircraft out there would get you a serious beating for making us look like tools. Quite frankly, if you responded to an altimeter setting with something like: "3 balls in the K-box!", I'd do several things:

1-Tell you to shut the ___up and read the advisory back myself properly before the controller puts us in a penalty box or lectures us.

2-I would probably be handling the radios for the rest of the leg, with you instructed to listen carefully to everything I said in my readbacks. In fact, I would probably have you parrot my responses out loud when I was done transmitting. (That way I would know you got some practice, not to mention insuring you understood the controller, as your shennanigans have forced me to turn the airplane into somewhat of a single-pilot cockpit.)

3-If you ever pulled a stunt like that to embarass me again, you, the chief piot and myself would be discussing what sort of training/counseling you'll be getting.

Dude, I don't mean to sound harsh. I remember (and cringe) when I recall myself as a 19 year old aviator. It hurts to even think about it. The sooner you disposses yourself of such notions, the more professionaly you'll be treated by your fellow aviators and ATC. What's cool is that you're taking steps via asking for advice on this board that will help you out a lot.

Here are some common radio pet peeves:

If you want to abbreviate, then don't do the "with you" thing. They KNOW you're with them. Your data block is flashing on the radar display, and you've just read your callsign.

Read back position and hold runway___as position and hold, runway_____. Don't do the "on the hold" BS, or any of the other less than precise slang. I'm on a 3 mile final doing 136 KIAS, the controller isn't the ONLY person who needs to hear and understand your readback.

Do not use the word "to". As in: ...descending to 5000." (are you gonna stop at 2500 or 5000?) Use phraesology like: "..7200 descending 5000.") Just use the word climbibng or descending in place of "to".

We're not going to crash if you don't check in with the new controller immediately. LISTEN before you press the PTT. You'de be suprised how many expereinced folks have a problem with this.

In the constraints of high-G, O2 mask wearing, hooking, turning, sweating BFM in a military A/C, the use of "tally" to acknowledge traffic is appropriate, expected, and about all you're gonna be able to say. Anybody else who uses it in conjunction with civilian ATC, sounds like a complete moron.

Just some "tough love" brother, good luck with your career! If I can be of any help at all, feel free to ask.

[Baseops.Net]

C17Wannabe,

Don't take the flak personally, think of it as constructive criticism. My posts, specifically, were not to target you, but were meant as advice for all those on their way to UPT. The specificity of my posts pertains to the fact that COMMS is a current "trend item" at UPT right now - and I am trying to beat it out of the studs! I add my personal 2cents for the multi-piloted guys because poor COMMS goes hand in hand with poor CRM in the cockpit.

Not to beat the already dead-and-bleeding-horse... Personally, I consider "REACHXXX, LEVEL 250" to actually be more abbreviated and concise than "REACHXXX IS WITH YOU AT 250"

Anyways, good luck in your endeavors and keep a good attitude.

[Guest Beef]

In the A-10 pilots write stuff down all of the time...most of it on the canopy in grease pencil. After a FAC (forward air controller) sortie, you need a towel to clean it all off.

[Toro]

Originally posted by Baseops.Net:

one needs to give serious consideration to Comm habits when flying overseas....Not to mention the differences in ICAO verbage (dependent on theater) and FAA verbage

That's something that takes a while to get used to in England. Take a guess what it means when the control tells you, "Expect diverse to the talkdown followed by reheat overshoot to the visual circuit, set QFE 29.80."

Translation (from the Queen's English to American English) - Expect vectors for the PAR followed by an afterburner low approach to the VFR pattern, altimeter is 29.80"

[Flare]

Originally posted by LJDRVR:

Read back position and hold runway___as position and hold, runway_____. Don't do the "on the hold" BS, or any of the other less than precise slang. I'm on a 3 mile final doing 136 KIAS, the controller isn't the ONLY person who needs to hear and understand your readback.

Perhaps this is just a Sheppard or military thing, but in our regs we are specifically told to say "on to hold" and not "position and hold, runway 69."

[ 26. March 2004, 22:59: Message edited by: ENJJPT stud ]

[Hacker]

Originally posted by LJDRVR:

Don't do the "on the hold" BS, or any of the other less than precise slang.

For what it's worth, "on to hold" is what fighter guys respond with when given "taxi into position and hold". This is not slang -- this is actual procedural comm that is mandated by USAF operating procedure.

[LJDRVR]

I wondered about that, I've heard it twice. ("On the hold") Thanks for staightening me out guys, though it still shouldn't be used in the system. (Civilian ATC) I heard a controller repeat himself twice recently, until the 737 crew read back "position and hold." (Too much coffee? Or maybe not enough...)

[ 26. March 2004, 22:09: Message edited by: LJDRVR ]