On 10/6/2018 at 6:55 PM, 17D_guy said:

Wow.  That sucks dude.  I remember sitting bitch queep work at wing CAG and reviewing the incoming 14N Lt/Jr Capt OPR's with no strats and discussing forcefully with the Sq/CC's they needed to get the good people numbers.  Never got that done.  I've talked with a few 14N Lt Col's afterwards and they all said no one gets strats at that level.

I still don't understand it.

Here is what we were mis-reading/attributing to 14n

17D’s always causing trouble for 14N’s.

mr barnes what a fantastic post.

post of the year nomination. spot on sir.

13 hours ago, panchbarnes said:

For the mission hackers, from day 1, be the best at your job, be a good bro/wingman, do what's "right", enjoy/take advantage of the military career, be a good parent and spouse, check the required boxes as you see fit.  Promotion past O-4 will be a crapshoot for you, a lot can change but you'll be stressed out and fight to be in the top 50% of your peers for many years (if you want to fight for it).

Not disagreeing with the overall content/message of your post, but that said I've seen many solid "mission hacking"/never-worn-a-knee-pad dudes have a decent career and command a squadron and a few gone to OG+. It absolutely can be done. You may face an uphill battle if you stay mission focused, but doing so does not inherently close doors. My recommendation to any young guy is put mission first at work, don't neglect your family, and overall just do the right thing. It'll all work out...maybe you become a CC, maybe you fly for Delta after 11 years, maybe you do both in the ARC...it'll all be good no matter how it works out. As soon as you start prioritizing the rat race and neglecting the mission and your family, you're losing. 

3 hours ago, bennynova said:

Here is what we were mis-reading/attributing to 14n

I've gotten that feedback from 2 "HPO" 14N Lt Col's, but it might have just been in my corner of the AF.

New Ned Stark article. Argues against strats and forced distribution.

However, word is AF wants to move to an Army system of top/middle/bottom third check boxes.

https://warontherocks.com/2018/11/and-miles-to-go-before-i-sleep-the-air-forces-stratification-problem

Edited November 2, 20187 yr by Klepto
spelling

Does anyone have direct experience or knowledge with turning down continuation when you’re passed over twice? 

Ive read through 36-2501 and 36-3207. Also read through recent continuation paperwork a friend received and in there it spells out that if you decline continuation you’ll separate 6 months after the board results were approved. What I’m trying to figure out is what (if any) ADSC could keep you in at that point. His paperwork mentioned an ADSC for some kind of medical training, which doesn’t apply, then goes on to talk specifically about ACP (the bonus). It says they’ll recoup any unused portion that you took and haven’t served out, which makes sense. I’m just trying to figure out if there’s any other kind of ADSC that could keep you in at that point. Apparently you’ll owe some bonus $$ back, potentially a lot if you took a lump sum, or just a prorated amount for the year, assuming you’re only taking annual installments.  So say you took the 20 year aviation service bonus w/ no lump sum, just annual payments, they would release you from the 20 years and you’d then just owe a prorated amount for that year of your separation. Does that check?  

Does anyone know if there’s any other ADSC that could still keep you around?  i.e. for a PCS, training, etc. 

I tried to call AFPC today but no luck yet. If I’m reading this right it sounds like if you refuse continuance it’s kind of a get out of jail (almost free) card for any ADSC you have at that point. 

Other thoughts or experience is greatly appreciated 

It does seem to be a get out of jail free card

  Duck should be familiar

 

i didn’t think it was possible, but the Air Force surprises me with their ability to fail at something else, yet again.

I did it last year. Declining continuation overrides branch ADSCs. 

 

You'll fill out some paperwork saying you decline, and a DOS is established 6 month later. It's pretty rad.

19 minutes ago, xaarman said:

I did it last year. Declining continuation overrides branch ADSCs. 

 

You'll fill out some paperwork saying you decline, and a DOS is established 6 month later. It's pretty rad.

Branch ADSCs? 

PCS commitment, UPT commitment, etc. DOPMA up or out trumps them. 

I declined continuation in 2016.  I separated one month later, so there is some flexibility on DOS.  If you're looking to get out fast, follow up with your MPF to make sure that they are processing you correctly as an involuntary separation.  These go much faster.  Voluntary separations for officers have to go to the SECAF and through associated wickets along the way.  The approval authority for involuntary separations for officers is some random E-5 at AFPC.

11 hours ago, Klepto said:

New Ned Stark article. Argues against strats and forced distribution.

However, word is AF wants to move to an Army system of top/middle/bottom third check boxes.

https://warontherocks.com/2018/11/and-miles-to-go-before-i-sleep-the-air-forces-stratification-problem

I’ve heard this as well. Also heard 2-line PRFs as early as the March 19 (I think?) O-5 board and AFSC promo boards starting CY20.

Thanks to everyone for all the good feedback 

AFSC promo boards starting CY20.

If the promotion rates stay the same, does this really help? Strats might be history, but you’re still left with the same problem of differentiating between the records of the middle ~60%.

This top/middle/bottom bucketing doesn’t help anything other than reducing the time it takes the OG and Wing to nitpick the numbers. How is it fair to the guys in a unit full of rock stars to get stratted as a bottom third guy? That’s even worse than it is now where they just get no strat so you can’t tell if they’re 25% or 75%....or getting an alternate strat (#1/69 mop holders).


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I would think ascension into the upper ranks (O-5 and higher) should incorporate multiple means of evaluation i.e. performance reports, pedigree (as in tactical proficiency, previous leadership positions held, WIC/Whitehouse Fellow/Olmsted etc.), references from previous commanders, and an interview between you and the board.  The current promotion system is another example of how the USAF hides behind a "paper bureaucracy" without really knowing who they are selecting.  I have seen it time and time again where a "meh" officer is selected over someone genuinely deserving.  I believe by opening up the playing field regarding the person's record, we would be able to de-escalate the significance of stratification whether it is an actual number stratification or top/middle/bottom ranking.    

I do realize that my suggestions would come at an administrative/logistical cost and the only solution I can think of is to not have promo boards by AFSC, but maybe conduct them at an even more specialized level and have them by parent MAJCOM.  The con with this idea is that we might run into a situation where there are less GO's who can cross disciplines. 

  

I've always thought we should move the Squadron Command billets down to senior O-3s/junior O-4s.  Army CGOs get real leadership opportunities early on (O-3 Company Command ~100 people).  Navy LCDRs can command a ship.  Why do we wait ~15 years before giving an officer Command (yeah I know there are exceptions depending on your AFSC)?

In theory, early Squadron Command:

1. Weeds out the d-bags early on

2. Gives the Senior Leaders better data for selecting HPOs

3. Provides more accurate/honest assessments to the stratification process and O-4/O-5 promotion boards

4. Provides O-4s/O-5s with credible/applicable leadership experience for Joint/Non-Joint staff tours

5. Provides practical/relevant/recent leadership experience for IDE learning

The O-5s can prove their worth on the staff (eliminating the CGO billets) and be pushed for SDE.  Post-SDE compete for Group+ Command.

Not a perfect solution but I think the pros outweigh the cons.  Otherwise, the OPR changes is just a shell game.

Edited November 3, 20187 yr by panchbarnes

9 hours ago, 14N Guy said:

I’ve heard this as well. Also heard 2-line PRFs as early as the March 19 (I think?) O-5 board and AFSC promo boards starting CY20.

So the PRFs we're already starting to submit up the chains will have to be substantially revised before they actually go to the boards?

Seriously, Air Force...your March board date means PRFs are due to wings in early December, which means they're due to groups in November...and you still haven't decided if we're using 2-line PRFs or if I can recycle the PRF from last year with minor tweaks?

Quote

I've always thought we should move the Squadron Command billets down to senior O-3s/junior O-4s.  Army CGOs get real leadership opportunities early on (O-3 Company Command ~100 people).  Navy LCDRs can command a ship.  Why do we wait ~15 years before giving an officer Command (yeah I know there are exceptions depending on your AFSC)?

Most AFSCs don't wait that long.  The LRS, Comm, and CONS SQ/CCs, as well as almost every MXG SQ/CC at my base are all at least one year group behind me ('06 and '07 dudes).  The flying community ends up doing it because even as a pilot, you end up commanding in your MWS - not likely to see a B-1 dude commanding an F-16 squadron.  That narrows the pool of available commands since there are a limited number of squadrons in your home MWS.  Meanwhile, a comm squadron is a comm squadron anywhere in the Air Force, so there's a greater chance to command one as an O-4.

If nothing else, AFSC-specific boards would at least allow flyers to compete with other flyers instead of sitting squadron commanders in the MXG and MSG.

Edited November 3, 20187 yr by pawnman

If PRFs change, they need to change starting at the 0-4 board.  For the CY11 year group and let it permeate that way.  

 

Or at a minimum let let us know before PRFs are written.    

Yeah great points, I knew SF, MXS, and others had earlier command opportunities.  Our command track is more aligned with the flyers, which means waiting until O-5 to get on that G-series order.  Then you'll have the underrepresented AFSCs like the 6X series, that struggle to find command billets.

Regardless of the AFSC and size of community command billets, I think you should still push down SQ/CCs to the O-3s and the O-4s.  Flyers are probably looking at early O-4s due to the lengthy training timeline and the follow-on ops tours.  Better to get that leadership (management?) experience early rather than later.  You'll definitely know where you stand earlier if you don't get picked up for command.

Thanks for reminding me about the PRF...can we get rid of the justification sheet while we are at it?

Edited November 3, 20187 yr by panchbarnes

As advertised. I am now on terminal leave and also got s job with a major airline. Stress level zero and never been so happy in my life.

Yes, it trumps UPT, PCS, Adv flying training ADSCs. The only thing that you need to check is the GI bill transfer of benefits eligibility. This is all from memory so please check me on this. If you decline continuation but separate at the mandatory 6 month date, you can keep your transfer benefits even if you still owe time on the ADSC. If however you try and move it up you MAY lose the transfer.

On 11/1/2018 at 2:49 AM, HarleyQuinn said:

So there is nobody from the 05 year group on BODN? Thanks AF. I'm all by myself now.

05 here...few and far between.

1 hour ago, Duck said:

As advertised. I am now on terminal leave and also got s job with a major airline. Stress level zero and never been so happy in my life.

Yes, it trumps UPT, PCS, Adv flying training ADSCs. The only thing that you need to check is the GI bill transfer of benefits eligibility. This is all from memory so please check me on this. If you decline continuation but separate at the mandatory 6 month date, you can keep your transfer benefits even if you still owe time on the ADSC. If however you try and move it up you MAY lose the transfer.

Bragging 

Bragging 

Just doing my part to free our fellow posters from the AF Stockholm Syndrome.